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Post Reply Shortage Of Illegal Labor Caused Construction Worker Wages To Rise Up To 30%
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Posted 9/4/17 , edited 9/5/17

runec wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
Increased competition is always good. But contracts usually go to the lowest bidder so scumbags will still get theirs, which sucks. But your right. If the workers find out the competition is offering better rates they won't stay long but the sad part is there will always be some hungry people that'll keep the scumbags company going.


More companies with labour shortages means less bidders on contracts to begin with as company's are unsure if they'll have enough labour. If you need a full crew for a 10 month project and 5 months in the "competition" is desperate to try and fill their own 10 month project so they hike wages. So some of your workers leave. Now you're filling open positions but have to hike wages yourself to poach workers from other companies. Now you're cutting your margin and risking going over budget all together for the price tag you committed to 5 months ago.

Industry demand is healthy. Industry shortage not so much.

Illegal immigrants and migrant workers are a supply for a demand. Cracking down on that supply does nothing at all to address the reason there's a demand in the first place. It just leaves industries short handed which isn't good for anyone.

Scapegoating immigrants, legal or otherwise, is one of the oldest political tricks in the book. It distracts people from focusing on why there's a demand in the first place. It's pointing to a symptom while you distract from the disease. Typically because fixing the disease would require work and possibly unpopular measures. Or because you are in some way benefiting directly from said disease politically or economically.

Also, all Trump has really done is frightened immigrants, legal and otherwise, into going back under the table so to speak. Deportations aren't up under Trump or anything. Only terrifying the shit out of people and treating them as sub-human has gone up under Trump. -.-

US immigration is already hopelessly overburdened as is. That was one of the reasons why Obama directed them to prioritize violent offenders, drug dealers, etc. Instead of just rounding up everyone at once. The system simply can't handle it and it can't deport people any faster no matter how much Trump yells at it.





I don't really care about the shitty companies paying their workers shitty wages. I won't even debate making shit easier for them.

You may be right and this will lead to a workforce shortage. That's a good problem to have if you want there to be less unemployment. But if half your crew leaves and you go over your quoted time and budget you probably should have paid your workers a decent wage to instill some loyalty. But neither of us are shitty business owners (I think?) so it's hard to say what they'll do to keep workers loyal to them. But like I said, the shitty ones will alway get the hungry people just entering the workforce.
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Posted 9/4/17 , edited 9/11/17

DevinKuska wrote:
As to the wall you mentioned... I don't think its such a bad idea. Most border patrol are stretched so thin there are hoards of accounts of people simply walking over the boarder and disappearing into the US. IF we could erect some manner of deterrent to reduce the amount of manpower needed to keep illegal immigrants/drugs out of the country I think its worth at least considering. Whether you think its a good idea or not is why america is so divided on it. Oddly from the interviews I have seen it would seem the majority who live along the border are all for it. Where as the farther from the border you get the less well recieved it is. Just something to think about.

on a lighter note... the US could just buy/merge with Mexico. Clean up mexico and then our border would be much smaller on the southern tip of Mexico


$10 Billion wall, defeated by $10 ladder....
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Posted 9/4/17 , edited 9/5/17

sinoakayumi wrote:


Ejanss wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

We can't help the world ourselves, everyone has to help themselves.


Good, I'll remember that the next time you're in an auto accident.


I prefer to say that every nation have to help themselves.


You WOULD, Dragon Lady.

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Posted 9/4/17 , edited 9/5/17

Ejanss wrote:




You WOULD, Dragon Lady.



oh jeez...we have to help ourselves but we should help others and other countries.
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/11/17

MysticGon wrote:
You may be right and this will lead to a workforce shortage. That's a good problem to have if you want there to be less unemployment. But if half your crew leaves and you go over your quoted time and budget you probably should have paid your workers a decent wage to instill some loyalty. But neither of us are shitty business owners (I think?) so it's hard to say what they'll do to keep workers loyal to them. But like I said, the shitty ones will alway get the hungry people just entering the workforce.


There's already a labour shortage in construction. There was one prior to Ruji's crap article. It doesn't have anything to do with illegal immigration. Though it does have something to do with legal immigration. More specifically, when economic collapse happened back under Bush the housing bubble likewise burst. So many workers left construction to go into other industries just to put food on the table. While immigrant workers, who made up a significant portion of the force, returned to Mexico where the prospects were better. Mexico's economy improved in the meantime and they found gainful employment in their own industry. While others who had changed industries and retrained likewise didn't return in any significant numbers.

In the meantime, not much was done to prevent the remainder from aging towards retirement as trades have been dropping out of favour as far as schooling goes. With schools trending towards pushing students towards tech instead of traditional vocations.



Rujikin wrote:
Learn economics sometime it will help you to critically think about policy decisions. I've simplified stuff for you.


You first. Since you seem to believe the American economy turns on a farking dime instead of being a massively complex system that reflects trends that can be years in the making.



Rujikin wrote:
Actually Trump yelling has caused Illegals to move up to Canada, back to Mexico, or return to their homeland in Mass. Read something a few days back that Canada was deploying troops to their border to assist with the Immigrants crossing their borders. So Trump has made the invaders not feel welcome and now they are leaving. +1 Trump


Actually, the vast majority of people that have crossed into Canada are Haitians and they are not illegally in the US. They're in the US on a temporary protected status after the earthquake hit Haiti in 2010. They're afraid Trump will revoke that status or let it expire. They are not "invaders". They were people you took in under humanitarian grounds back when you had a President who wasn't a soulless husk.

That the people you took in out of empathy in the midst of a humanitarian disaster are now so afraid of you they're fleeing the country should speak farking volumes.

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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/5/17

Ryulightorb wrote:


Ejanss wrote:
You WOULD, Dragon Lady.



oh jeez...we have to help ourselves but we should help others and other countries.


Yeah, what's wrong with being childish, self-absorbed, bigoted bastards?...Other countries are!

(And not to play the Hairshirt card, but the general abstract concept of "Morality" says yes to both questions, without seeing any absurdity in it. I'm sure some of the defenders here knew that already, they probably just....forgot.)
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/5/17

runec wrote:

In the meantime, not much was done to prevent the remainder from aging towards retirement as trades have been dropping out of favour as far as schooling goes. With schools trending towards pushing students towards tech instead of traditional vocations.

SNIIP: the American economy turns on a farking dime instead of being a massively complex system that reflects trends that can be years in the making.


Actually, the vast majority of people that have crossed into Canada are Haitians and they are not illegally in the US. They're in the US on a temporary protected status after the earthquake hit Haiti in 2010. They're afraid Trump will revoke that status or let it expire. They are not "invaders". They were people you took in under humanitarian grounds back when you had a President who wasn't a soulless husk.

That the people you took in out of empathy in the midst of a humanitarian disaster are now so afraid of you they're fleeing the country should speak farking volumes.



My friend Runec... I am so sad. It seemed like you and I were agreeing with each other so much lately. Unfortunately it didnt last forever, however I am ever hopeful we can discuss many things and have a longer streak of agreement later. However I digress...

Yes some of the shortage is due to retirement, however as I stated earlier atleast in Washington state the majority of skilled trade loss was due to the economic downturn of 2008/2009. Though I do agree schools seem to be pushing kids to tech industries while conveniently forgetting to mention those tech jobs dont work unless they have a building and power to run it all. How regrettable. Though skilled trades may not have you driving a ferrari, even Amazon or Microsoft(local tech companies) would be hard pressed to pay $20USD/hr for no experience and upwards of $70-$120/hr withing 2-4years (based on common trade apprenticeship lengths). Sure the work can bit a bit dirty and requires you to actually deal with humans. However there is something to be said when you can look at a business and say it runs because of the work you provided. Sorry... got down memory lane.


Not sure whats massively complex about it... we have people who basically guess what the economy will look like(Futures I believe is what its called or "market speculators") and we run the economy off of that. Add to that we no longer back our currency with gold or anything for that matter. we simply keep printing money and telling people its worth something... Sorry our economies state of being really annoys me

Can you site your source please? Of 7000 Canada has accepted over 3000 are from Mexico... so unless 3500 are from Haiti and the rest of the world only accounts for 500.... I am skeptical about your statement. As far as immigrant/Visa status being revoked, this is a mixed bag. If your from a country like Haiti or Syria the thought of being sent back I am sure is terrifying without a doubt. However since no actions at that time or since that I am aware of have changed much... its an unwarranted fear. ss to the fact a good portion of those who fled to Canada are not in any better position. I will not as a patriot of the US accept demonizing because of peoples semi irrational fears. Had something major changed and then they emigrated to Canada it would be slightly different. Though I do agree people who came to the US legally are not invaders... just the illegal ones. As to "Souless husk" ... well personally I dont think you can find a politician or president in the last 30 years who doesnt qualify for that title. Lets keep our fingers crossed the next one will be better eh?
EDIT ahh sorry forgot sources...
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-canada-refugees/asylum-seekers-in-canada-who-fled-trump-now-trapped-in-legal-limbo-idUSKBN19H10T?feedType=RSS&feedName=newsOne&google_editors_picks=true
http://www.immigration.ca/7000-asylum-seekers-crossed-quebec-border-since-july-1/
http://www.immigration.ca/mexican-deportee-numbers-swell-following-lifting-visa-restrictions/
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/5/17

runec wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
You may be right and this will lead to a workforce shortage. That's a good problem to have if you want there to be less unemployment. But if half your crew leaves and you go over your quoted time and budget you probably should have paid your workers a decent wage to instill some loyalty. But neither of us are shitty business owners (I think?) so it's hard to say what they'll do to keep workers loyal to them. But like I said, the shitty ones will alway get the hungry people just entering the workforce.


There's already a labour shortage in construction. There was one prior to Ruji's crap article. It doesn't have anything to do with illegal immigration. Though it does have something to do with legal immigration. More specifically, when economic collapse happened back under Bush the housing bubble likewise burst. So many workers left construction to go into other industries just to put food on the table. While immigrant workers, who made up a significant portion of the force, returned to Mexico where the prospects were better. Mexico's economy improved in the meantime and they found gainful employment in their own industry. While others who had changed industries and retrained likewise didn't return in any significant numbers.

In the meantime, not much was done to prevent the remainder from aging towards retirement as trades have been dropping out of favour as far as schooling goes. With schools trending towards pushing students towards tech instead of traditional vocations.



Rujikin wrote:
Learn economics sometime it will help you to critically think about policy decisions. I've simplified stuff for you.


You first. Since you seem to believe the American economy turns on a farking dime instead of being a massively complex system that reflects trends that can be years in the making.



Rujikin wrote:
Actually Trump yelling has caused Illegals to move up to Canada, back to Mexico, or return to their homeland in Mass. Read something a few days back that Canada was deploying troops to their border to assist with the Immigrants crossing their borders. So Trump has made the invaders not feel welcome and now they are leaving. +1 Trump


Actually, the vast majority of people that have crossed into Canada are Haitians and they are not illegally in the US. They're in the US on a temporary protected status after the earthquake hit Haiti in 2010. They're afraid Trump will revoke that status or let it expire. They are not "invaders". They were people you took in under humanitarian grounds back when you had a President who wasn't a soulless husk.

That the people you took in out of empathy in the midst of a humanitarian disaster are now so afraid of you they're fleeing the country should speak farking volumes.



Well with the wages going up it'll make it easier to talk high school kids into pursuing that career path. Though stability is a major factor. When the economy hits another recession construction will be hit hard. Just like with oil, when prices are high oil companies pop up, try to get a piece of the pie but when the bubble bursts you're out of a job. You can organize but that'll put a cap on whatever workforce you have because you have to keep your union workers working through good times and bad times. The goal is to keep as many people employed and well-paid as possible, for as consistently as possible. Short of construction company bailouts every time the market crashes I can't think of a way to do that other than having a more sustainable industry that can withstand the bad times, meaning less lay-offs.

Either way I don't think cheap illegal immigrant labor should be used as a way to keep construction prices down. If you want to support higher wages you have to be prepared to do your part and pay more.
runec 
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/5/17

DevinKuska wrote:Yes some of the shortage is due to retirement, however as I stated earlier atleast in Washington state the majority of skilled trade loss was due to the economic downturn of 2008/2009. Though I do agree schools seem to be pushing kids to tech industries while conveniently forgetting to mention those tech jobs dont work unless they have a building and power to run it all. How regrettable. Though skilled trades may not have you driving a ferrari, even Amazon or Microsoft(local tech companies) would be hard pressed to pay $20USD/hr for no experience and upwards of $70-$120/hr withing 2-4years (based on common trade apprenticeship lengths). Sure the work can bit a bit dirty and requires you to actually deal with humans. However there is something to be said when you can look at a business and say it runs because of the work you provided. Sorry... got down memory lane.


That...doesn't seem to be disagreeing with me? I stated plainly there was a major loss during the downturn as the prime problem. My comment on retiring out was a footnote to that.




DevinKuska wrote:Not sure whats massively complex about it... we have people who basically guess what the economy will look like(Futures I believe is what its called or "market speculators") and we run the economy off of that. Add to that we no longer back our currency with gold or anything for that matter. we simply keep printing money and telling people its worth something... Sorry our economies state of being really annoys me


Of course its complex. There's no way something with so many millions of moving parts isn't complex. And no the economy isn't run off of market speculators. That's only one faucet of the financial sector. Market speculators are people who, yes, essentially try to predict or guess price fluctuations for their own profit. But you're talking about trading commodities and such.







The vast majority of the newcomers to Canada are Haitian, motivated to escape the U.S. after Trump suggested he would remove the special status afforded citizens of the country following a devastating 2010 earthquake. However, Canada removed that same special status two years ago.


That's from your own source.... ?



DevinKuska wrote:
... well personally I dont think you can find a politician or president in the last 30 years who doesnt qualify for that title. Lets keep our fingers crossed the next one will be better eh?


I'm going to disagree with you there. It's easy to say all politicians are Bad(tm) but that glosses over the problem. Trump is distinct in his behaviour and most definitely stands out in contrast to previous presidents. If not the average decent human being in general.

You'd be hard pressed to call Obama soulless for instance. I wouldn't even call Bush soulless. Stupid, sure. But not soulless.




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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/5/17

runec wrote:

That...doesn't seem to be disagreeing with me? I stated plainly there was a major loss during the downturn as the prime problem. My comment on retiring out was a footnote to that.

Of course its complex. There's no way something with so many millions of moving parts isn't complex. And no the economy isn't run off of market speculators. That's only one faucet of the financial sector. Market speculators are people who, yes, essentially try to predict or guess price fluctuations for their own profit. But you're talking about trading commodities and such.

That's from your own source.... ?

I'm going to disagree with you there. It's easy to say all politicians are Bad(tm) but that glosses over the problem. Trump is distinct in his behaviour and most definitely stands out in contrast to previous presidents. If not the average decent human being in general.

You'd be hard pressed to call Obama soulless for instance. I wouldn't even call Bush soulless. Stupid, sure. But not soulless.


My appoligies I mistakenly thought you were implying the shortage was primarily from retiring (naturally).

Millions of parts and nobody running the show... meh I will leave it alone.

Oddly enough the same site says over 3000 are from Mexico. I will email them and ask for further explanation. I will message you what I find

Though your correct Presidnet trump stands out(and not necessarily in a good way... ok flat out not in a good way) If we are going to say he is a "souless husk" for his brash decisions... Name a president and I am sure we can both explore a vast array of morally or ethically questionable decisions. To say nothing of what I am sure is a multitude of pandering to lobbyists from across the spectrum. Accepting money and pushing an agenda for financial gain I would say is souless.. but for now I will just accept both of our views as subjective or experience driven.
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/11/17

MysticGon wrote:
Well with the wages going up it'll make it easier to talk high school kids into pursuing that career path. Though stability is a major factor. When the economy hits another recession construction will be hit hard. Just like with oil, when prices are high oil companies pop up, try to get a piece of the pie but when the bubble bursts you're out of a job. You can organize but that'll put a cap on whatever workforce you have because you have to keep your union workers working through good times and bad times. The goal is to keep as many people employed and well-paid as possible, for as consistently as possible. Short of construction company bailouts every time the market crashes I can't think of a way to do that other than having a more sustainable industry that can withstand the bad times, meaning less lay-offs.


Possibly, but as you say the problem is stability. Getting high school kids on that career path again is going to be a fundamental undertaking that will take years to bare fruit so to speak. In order to do that to begin with you need state and local level focuses on bringing vocational education back into schools to begin with. But with the piecemeal way that the US works with states rights that's a tricky problem on its own.

I mean, the fact is that major sections of US industries ( especially agriculture, fisheries, service, etc ) rely on illegal immigrants and migrant workers. Not as a cost measure but as a labour availability measure. Americans don't seem to want those jobs and its not that they don't pay well. The US unemployment rate is sitting at a historic low of 4.3% despite all the screaming about jobs.

The problem isn't that anyone is stealing said jobs from Hard Working Americans(tm) its that said jobs are not what people want or are not in the places people need them to be. Focusing on cutting out illegal labour or migrant labour will just cut a hole in those work forces without people to fill them. It's attacking the supply instead of fixing the problem that lead to the demand.

Its a convenient scapegoat but it doesn't ultimately solve the underlying causes.

Even up here in the frozen north we are having a problem with labour shortage in trades and as we don't border Mexico it obviously has nothing to do with illegal immigration. Nor does it have anything to do with wage levels as these are really nice paying jobs up here. I mean cripes, *I* could get you a job here for $20/hour if you're willing to learn how to help lay carpet or lay roofing tiles. Just off who I know in town that's short on construction labour for their business.

And we still have vocational training in schools as a standard. =/




MysticGon wrote:
Either way I don't think cheap illegal immigrant labor should be used as a way to keep construction prices down. If you want to support higher wages you have to be prepared to do your part and pay more.


Agreed there. Hell, construction in general is an industry I really, really don't want cutting corners on cost. >.>
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/5/17

DevinKuska wrote:
My appoligies I mistakenly thought you were implying the shortage was primarily from retiring (naturally).

Millions of parts and nobody running the show... meh I will leave it alone.

Oddly enough the same site says over 3000 are from Mexico. I will email them and ask for further explanation. I will message you what I find

Though your correct Presidnet trump stands out(and not necessarily in a good way... ok flat out not in a good way) If we are going to say he is a "souless husk" for his brash decisions... Name a president and I am sure we can both explore a vast array of morally or ethically questionable decisions. To say nothing of what I am sure is a multitude of pandering to lobbyists from across the spectrum. Accepting money and pushing an agenda for financial gain I would say is souless.. but for now I will just accept both of our views as subjective or experience driven.


Ah, okay.

Not sure, Haitians are unfortunately being targeted with some misinformation about Canada's asylum and immigration laws. It could simply be that the surge in Haitians is more recent or that there's some confusion over how many of who have crossed vs how many have actually been accepted for asylum. As half of them so far have been rejected.

Oh, I'm sure we can. But President's typically don't fail on basic human interaction. When I say soulless I mean it in the sense of actually having a capacity for empathy/compassion. As in, something fundamentally wrong with their ability to understand and value other human beings. Trump thinks absolutely nothing about belittling, bullying, targeting or otherwise lashing out at absolutely anyone. Doesn't matter who they are. All that matters is how it affects him and his ego personally. And he does so with no self control or self awareness whatsoever.

The terrifying thing about it all is that all of the terrible shit Trump has said and done was not a deal breaker for half of America. He absolutely wiped his ass with human decency and even the most basic standards of professionalism. But that wasn't a problem for people. They excused everything he did and some still do. To the point of total lunacy ( see: Evangelicals ).
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/5/17
For any who thinks this might be a double-edge sword or won't last, or that it'll put a strain on the market, you might want to sit down and find some time at some point to do some actual research.

It's simple economics, if a business doesn't compete then the business will sink. When there are plenty of illegal aliens to choose from to hire there will be no shortage of replacements for anybody looking to find work, meaning every hire is replaceable, and because of that they lacked competition as a business because they did not need to compete with other competitors in the same job market.

So if you're looking for the "double-edge sword" analogy to find out which business this will affect the most, you'll more likely find that in big business chains, the biggest ones that this will hit are likely McDonalds, Burger King, Walmart just to name a few, you will likely see their sales and market competitive values take a hit because they view their employees to be replaceable, because why keep and promote or give incentives for employee wages if they know you're just more likely to quit or be fired while you're lazy and doing a shitty half-assed job that at least gets done?

Emlpoyees who are not replaceable will prove that they are irreplaceable by not only doing the job but won't be lazy or half-ass it. Do you remember a time when McDonalds or Burger King didn't screw up your order? How about better high quality merchandise to buy from in Walmart stores? If another business springs up at some point to be more competitive than these brands they will likely not screw up your order, provide better service, and best of all you won't be forced to only buy crappy cheap China-made junk.
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/11/17
I've worked with a lot of developers and the simplest way to put this is the labor shortage in construction and consequently higher wages has been around for probably the last 4-5 years. New construction was BOOMING in most metro areas, though it does appear to be teetering off a bit it's still much higher than recession numbers. The article tenuously tries to link it to "illegal immuhgrants" like most ring wing propaganda sites will, but honestly that doesn't match up with reality.

Good day.
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/5/17
http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-aliens-taking-u-s-jobs

take a look
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