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Post Reply Shortage Of Illegal Labor Caused Construction Worker Wages To Rise Up To 30%
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/6/17

runec wrote:
.....er? Purchasing power would obviously rise along with wages. How many burgers do you eat a day at McDonalds that it consumes your entire paycheque? If 19 cents leads you to utter financial ruin you weren't "middle class" to begin with.


I'm not middle class, but they're supposedly struggling with loans. Obviously, the pennies would add up if minimum wage affected many of the services they use. Their pay would need to cover student loans, home loans, car loans, their groceries, their taxes, their insurance. Not only that, but it must exceed those expenses by a considerable amount so they'll consider children before they're too old to have them.

Purchasing power doesn't rise with wages... Obviously, money has more value when there's less of it. People work for less, sell for less.

The main important struggle in society right now is debt. The goal is to invest in people, but not crush them with too much debt, so that they thrive and we can invest in other people when the interest is paid back.
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/11/17

Kavalion wrote:
I'm not middle class, but they're supposedly struggling with loans. Obviously, the pennies would add up if minimum wage affected many of the services they use. Their pay would need to cover student loans, home loans, car loans, their groceries, their taxes, their insurance. Not only that, but it must exceed those expenses by a considerable amount so they'll consider children before they're too old to have them.

Purchasing power doesn't rise with wages... Obviously, money has more value when there's less of it. People work for less, sell for less.

The main important struggle in society right now is debt. The goal is to invest in people, but not crush them with too much debt, so that they thrive and we can invest in other people when the interest is paid back.


It's not that simple. An increase in purchasing power is a boon for everyone involved as it gets goods and services flowing. Labour costs are only a fraction of the total price of a good or service. Its not a zero sum game. Also, paying people more money doesn't mean there's a net increase in total available money. A raise doesn't mean the treasury prints off more bills.

When people are in debt or do not make enough money they tend to focus on putting money away. Money that's being stashed is not circulating. Its not going back into goods and services and thus increasing business. It's not being invested anywhere. When wages trend below a livable wage that excess cost is born by the government and thus the taxpayer. AKA you. You ultimately pay the cost for this anyway. In the form of social programs and socioeconomic ills such as crime. You, personally, are subsidizing McDonald's workforce. You're effectively letting McDonalds get free labour off the back of the taxpayer.

You're not a third world country so you don't let people starve and die in your streets and you got rid of slave labour a long time ago. So there's always a point where the government has to step in to pick up the slack of poverty. But the later that point comes the more expensive it is and that expense is born by the government which in turn means its born by you and your taxes.

So I'll put the same question to you that I do to anyone when this topic comes up: Do you think that the employer should pay the labour cost of the employees they hire or do you think that you and your tax dollars should pay for employee? Thus giving the employer a freebie at your expense?

There's no moral or logical reason for minimum wage to have dropped since 1968 while the value of a worker, measured in productivity, has increased by so many magnitudes. No one in their right mind would say "Fuck yeah, I'll do more work for less money!" so why would you argue for it? I mean, the cost of goods and services certainly hasn't grown cheaper since 1968.

America is the richest country on the planet with the largest economy. Yet it lags behind other developed and far less rich nations when it comes to this.



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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/6/17

Yup thats basic economics. However certain workers will take half or less of what an American will work for and they are hurting wages.


What's been hurting wages is people hiring and taking advantage of these people who work for less. It is the same mentality that shifted manufacturing jobs overseas to Asia. People had to adept in this country from being a manufacturing workforce to a service based workforce...thus creating the demand for labor from undocumented aliens.

So before you conservatives go beating your chest, remember you were the ones who created the problem...and it is honestly disgusting the amount of xenophobia spread amongst non-native US Citizens who shouldn't even have a right to consider themselves as a people of this Republic.

How about stop exploiting Mexico and actually making that country worth more than a cesspool for international coporation dumping grounds?

This is why people in this nation think of the Republic party and conservatism as a joke...it is easily apparent how compassionless you and your supporters really are and so the Democratic party opposition abuses this and goes lunatic on everyone else.
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Posted 9/5/17 , edited 9/7/17



Cavemantero wrote:


Yup thats basic economics. However certain workers will take half or less of what an American will work for and they are hurting wages.


What's been hurting wages is people hiring and taking advantage of these people who work for less. It is the same mentality that shifted manufacturing jobs overseas to Asia. People had to adept in this country from being a manufacturing workforce to a service based workforce...thus creating the demand for labor from undocumented aliens.

So before you conservatives go beating your chest, remember you were the ones who created the problem...and it is honestly disgusting the amount of xenophobia spread amongst non-native US Citizens who shouldn't even have a right to consider themselves as a people of this Republic.

How about stop exploiting Mexico and actually making that country worth more than a cesspool for international coporation dumping grounds?

This is why people in this nation think of the Republic party and conservatism as a joke...it is easily apparent how compassionless you and your supporters really are and so the Democratic party opposition abuses this and goes lunatic on everyone else.


Thats basic economics. If you can buy a candy bar for $2 or $1 and its the same candy bar then you will buy the $1 candy bar. We have plenty of AMERICANS that WANT the jobs illegals are taking. They just want those jobs for a decent wage instead of $3/hour. There is not demand for illegal aliens there is demand for Slave labor. You can see who wants the slave labor by who wants to keep the slaves.

No one but Americans have a right to be in America. Its a privilege for everyone else.

So you want US interfering in Mexico and nation building? We don't have a very good track record at being successful... We are more likely to fuck it up worse.

People think of the Republican party and the Democratic party as a joke because they are both corrupt and full of shills (You know it, i know it, we all know it). People are embracing conservatism and libertarianism because they are seeing how rabid and self devouring liberals have become. The left attacks anyone that engages in discussion or believes slightly different from them.



I support making everyone follow the same rules and not giving a free pass to certain criminals that demand to be able to cut in line.
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Posted 9/6/17 , edited 9/7/17

Rujikin wrote:

I am shocked! Who would have ever thought that getting rid of illegal labor, that is willing to work for below market wages, would cause wages to rise?! Well because of illegal labor becoming harder to find wages are rising in the construction industry because they are having to hire more Americans and pay more overtime hours.

I wonder if we could apply the same concept to fast food workers and increase their wages to $12 or $13 an hour? I've been seeing that fast food places where I live are paying $10 an hour for employees and $12 for closers.

Do you think we should crack down on illegal labor more so wages for Americans can start rising?



https://www.nationaleconomicseditorial.com/2017/08/06/shortage-illegal-labor-wage-increases/



Trump’s Crackdown on Illegal Aliens is Driving Wage-Growth in US Construction Industry by up to 30%

There is a strong correlation between immigration—particularly illegal immigration—and wages. This should be obvious to anyone familiar with the fundamental principle of supply and demand: more supply (workers) means lower prices (wages), and vice versa.

Despite the fact that this correlation between immigration and wages is well-documented, it is not obvious to many liberal economists, who see immigration as an unfettered economic benefit. The evidence suggests otherwise, including new data reported by Fox.

According to the National Association of Home Builders, more than 56% of America’s developers are reporting labor shortages, which is forcing them to increases wages and improve working conditions to attract new talent.

In fact, according to Ted Wilson of Residential Strategies Inc. construction costs have risen by 30% this year—the majority of which is due to higher wages and increased overtime pay. That is, companies are being forced to hire American workers, and pay wages at fair market value.

Why?

Because President Trump’s crackdown on illegal immigration is preventing them from hiring illegal aliens, who undercut the labor market, shortchanging American workers. The impact of this (while often ignored) is significant.

According to Stan Market, CEO of Texas’ Marek, “half of the workers in construction in Texas are undocumented.”

He goes on to say that many of them are leaving Texas, either to find refuge in sanctuary cities and states, and “many of them are going back to Mexico.”

This is good news for American workers, who have been hammered in recent decades. In fact, real wages have not risen for the median American worker since 1973, in part because of the deflationary effects of illegal immigration.

And just to be clear, this is not an isolated event—wages will rise in tandem with deportations and other labor restrictions (such as if, and when, the RAISE Act becomes law).

We know this because it’s happening elsewhere already. For example, the restriction of temporary work visas in Maine earlier this year led to higher wages, better working conditions, and lower unemployment—all good for the average American citizen.


Labor Markets and Minimum Wage: Crash Course Economics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWwXmH-n5Bo

My Opinion: We don't need illegal labor work legally or GTFO.


While I agree illegal labor is bad, it should be noted the source you are giving us. You are giving us a source that sources itself and 1 Fox News article.

It also should be noted that U.S AS A WHOLE (not just the construction industry) has a labor shortage right now but despite that, many industries refuse to raise wages to deal with that shortage. Other things like putting stupidly high requirements for the job is another reason for the labor shortage.

Illegal labor has very little to do with the wage right now, its more just employers adjusting to post-Great Recession incredibly slow and treating jobs as being lucky to have when it is abundant right now.

Also all of you should stop touting the "come here legally" bullshit when you and the people you vote for do not want to help people come here legally.
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Posted 9/6/17 , edited 9/7/17

TarNaru33 wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

I am shocked! Who would have ever thought that getting rid of illegal labor, that is willing to work for below market wages, would cause wages to rise?! Well because of illegal labor becoming harder to find wages are rising in the construction industry because they are having to hire more Americans and pay more overtime hours.

I wonder if we could apply the same concept to fast food workers and increase their wages to $12 or $13 an hour? I've been seeing that fast food places where I live are paying $10 an hour for employees and $12 for closers.

Do you think we should crack down on illegal labor more so wages for Americans can start rising?



https://www.nationaleconomicseditorial.com/2017/08/06/shortage-illegal-labor-wage-increases/



Trump’s Crackdown on Illegal Aliens is Driving Wage-Growth in US Construction Industry by up to 30%

There is a strong correlation between immigration—particularly illegal immigration—and wages. This should be obvious to anyone familiar with the fundamental principle of supply and demand: more supply (workers) means lower prices (wages), and vice versa.

Despite the fact that this correlation between immigration and wages is well-documented, it is not obvious to many liberal economists, who see immigration as an unfettered economic benefit. The evidence suggests otherwise, including new data reported by Fox.

According to the National Association of Home Builders, more than 56% of America’s developers are reporting labor shortages, which is forcing them to increases wages and improve working conditions to attract new talent.

In fact, according to Ted Wilson of Residential Strategies Inc. construction costs have risen by 30% this year—the majority of which is due to higher wages and increased overtime pay. That is, companies are being forced to hire American workers, and pay wages at fair market value.

Why?

Because President Trump’s crackdown on illegal immigration is preventing them from hiring illegal aliens, who undercut the labor market, shortchanging American workers. The impact of this (while often ignored) is significant.

According to Stan Market, CEO of Texas’ Marek, “half of the workers in construction in Texas are undocumented.”

He goes on to say that many of them are leaving Texas, either to find refuge in sanctuary cities and states, and “many of them are going back to Mexico.”

This is good news for American workers, who have been hammered in recent decades. In fact, real wages have not risen for the median American worker since 1973, in part because of the deflationary effects of illegal immigration.

And just to be clear, this is not an isolated event—wages will rise in tandem with deportations and other labor restrictions (such as if, and when, the RAISE Act becomes law).

We know this because it’s happening elsewhere already. For example, the restriction of temporary work visas in Maine earlier this year led to higher wages, better working conditions, and lower unemployment—all good for the average American citizen.


Labor Markets and Minimum Wage: Crash Course Economics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWwXmH-n5Bo

My Opinion: We don't need illegal labor work legally or GTFO.


While I agree illegal labor is bad, it should be noted the source you are giving us. You are giving us a source that sources itself and 1 Fox News article.

It also should be noted that U.S AS A WHOLE (not just the construction industry) has a labor shortage right now but despite that, many industries refuse to raise wages to deal with that shortage. Other things like putting stupidly high requirements for the job is another reason for the labor shortage.

Illegal labor has very little to do with the wage right now, its more just employers adjusting to post-Great Recession incredibly slow and treating jobs as being lucky to have when it is abundant right now.

Also all of you should stop touting the "come here legally" bullshit when you and the people you vote for do not want to help people come here legally.


The labor shortage is bullshit and fabricated. In reality companies are wanting to hire HIGHLY skilled labor for far below market value wages. The fact that their requirements are too high and their pay is low is an indicator there is too much labor in the market. If there was a true shortage of labor then requirements would be low and pay would be high as basic economics would demand such a thing. You can tell a lot of truth in this world by economics. Its hard to hide the effects of economics, short of a lack of understanding of economics.

H1B Visas contribute to this as companies purposely make requirements insanely high and pay low so they can apply for H1B vias when no American citizens are willing to work for that job they complain that they cannot fill the position. They then try to get an H1B applicant, this is SUPER prevalent in the world of IT. If you cut the H1B vias program you would see job requirements drop and pay increase over night.

Illegal labor has a huge effect on wages. You know how they say that "americans wouldn't want farm work"? Well that is false. The true situation is "Americans don't want farm work with too low of wages". If we didn't have slaves, im sorry Illegals, to work the fields then they would HAVE to pay more to get Americans to harvest those crops.

We do want people to come here legally. People that come from some of these countries completely lacking in freedom make some of the BEST Americans because they know what its like to not have freedom and they fight like crazy to keep their newly obtained freedom. Did you know that for every estimated illegal alien that 1 legal immigrant gets delayed entry into the USA? The people jumping ahead of the line slows the whole line down.

Besides legal immigrants don't fear Trump:



Based new Americans!
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Posted 9/7/17 , edited 9/7/17

Rujikin wrote:


TarNaru33 wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

I am shocked! Who would have ever thought that getting rid of illegal labor, that is willing to work for below market wages, would cause wages to rise?! Well because of illegal labor becoming harder to find wages are rising in the construction industry because they are having to hire more Americans and pay more overtime hours.

I wonder if we could apply the same concept to fast food workers and increase their wages to $12 or $13 an hour? I've been seeing that fast food places where I live are paying $10 an hour for employees and $12 for closers.

Do you think we should crack down on illegal labor more so wages for Americans can start rising?



https://www.nationaleconomicseditorial.com/2017/08/06/shortage-illegal-labor-wage-increases/



Trump’s Crackdown on Illegal Aliens is Driving Wage-Growth in US Construction Industry by up to 30%

There is a strong correlation between immigration—particularly illegal immigration—and wages. This should be obvious to anyone familiar with the fundamental principle of supply and demand: more supply (workers) means lower prices (wages), and vice versa.

Despite the fact that this correlation between immigration and wages is well-documented, it is not obvious to many liberal economists, who see immigration as an unfettered economic benefit. The evidence suggests otherwise, including new data reported by Fox.

According to the National Association of Home Builders, more than 56% of America’s developers are reporting labor shortages, which is forcing them to increases wages and improve working conditions to attract new talent.

In fact, according to Ted Wilson of Residential Strategies Inc. construction costs have risen by 30% this year—the majority of which is due to higher wages and increased overtime pay. That is, companies are being forced to hire American workers, and pay wages at fair market value.

Why?

Because President Trump’s crackdown on illegal immigration is preventing them from hiring illegal aliens, who undercut the labor market, shortchanging American workers. The impact of this (while often ignored) is significant.

According to Stan Market, CEO of Texas’ Marek, “half of the workers in construction in Texas are undocumented.”

He goes on to say that many of them are leaving Texas, either to find refuge in sanctuary cities and states, and “many of them are going back to Mexico.”

This is good news for American workers, who have been hammered in recent decades. In fact, real wages have not risen for the median American worker since 1973, in part because of the deflationary effects of illegal immigration.

And just to be clear, this is not an isolated event—wages will rise in tandem with deportations and other labor restrictions (such as if, and when, the RAISE Act becomes law).

We know this because it’s happening elsewhere already. For example, the restriction of temporary work visas in Maine earlier this year led to higher wages, better working conditions, and lower unemployment—all good for the average American citizen.


Labor Markets and Minimum Wage: Crash Course Economics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWwXmH-n5Bo

My Opinion: We don't need illegal labor work legally or GTFO.


While I agree illegal labor is bad, it should be noted the source you are giving us. You are giving us a source that sources itself and 1 Fox News article.

It also should be noted that U.S AS A WHOLE (not just the construction industry) has a labor shortage right now but despite that, many industries refuse to raise wages to deal with that shortage. Other things like putting stupidly high requirements for the job is another reason for the labor shortage.

Illegal labor has very little to do with the wage right now, its more just employers adjusting to post-Great Recession incredibly slow and treating jobs as being lucky to have when it is abundant right now.

Also all of you should stop touting the "come here legally" bullshit when you and the people you vote for do not want to help people come here legally.


The labor shortage is bullshit and fabricated. In reality companies are wanting to hire HIGHLY skilled labor for far below market value wages. The fact that their requirements are too high and their pay is low is an indicator there is too much labor in the market. If there was a true shortage of labor then requirements would be low and pay would be high as basic economics would demand such a thing. You can tell a lot of truth in this world by economics. Its hard to hide the effects of economics, short of a lack of understanding of economics.

H1B Visas contribute to this as companies purposely make requirements insanely high and pay low so they can apply for H1B vias when no American citizens are willing to work for that job they complain that they cannot fill the position. They then try to get an H1B applicant, this is SUPER prevalent in the world of IT. If you cut the H1B vias program you would see job requirements drop and pay increase over night.

Illegal labor has a huge effect on wages. You know how they say that "americans wouldn't want farm work"? Well that is false. The true situation is "Americans don't want farm work with too low of wages". If we didn't have slaves, im sorry Illegals, to work the fields then they would HAVE to pay more to get Americans to harvest those crops.

We do want people to come here legally. People that come from some of these countries completely lacking in freedom make some of the BEST Americans because they know what its like to not have freedom and they fight like crazy to keep their newly obtained freedom. Did you know that for every estimated illegal alien that 1 legal immigrant gets delayed entry into the USA? The people jumping ahead of the line slows the whole line down.

Besides legal immigrants don't fear Trump:


You do know what a labor shortage is, right? I just told you and you repeated exactly what I said is causing the labor shortage. A labor shortage doesn't mean there just isn't enough workers due to population, it means there is a shortage of labor in that area for certain reasons, one of them is exactly what we both just stated. Employers are not trying to adjust to the damn economy getting better.

People don't want to work under a hot sun all day in poor environments for minimum wages or even $12 an hour because they believe it is too low of a pay. That is how economics work, but it is not just because your illegal boogeyman and H1B visas.

Your bold is lie, bro. Again, stop voting the people who wants to make the process of immigration even more difficult and longer and maybe you will see the illegal immigration rates drop. Years of waiting for legal immigration is too damn long, I can understand why many would skip the line.
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Posted 9/10/17 , edited 9/10/17

runec wrote:
It's not that simple. An increase in purchasing power is a boon for everyone involved as it gets goods and services flowing. Labour costs are only a fraction of the total price of a good or service. Its not a zero sum game. Also, paying people more money doesn't mean there's a net increase in total available money. A raise doesn't mean the treasury prints off more bills.


A raise for workers means there's more money flowing into the community, instead of out of it, being invested elsewhere by the big business & banks. More money in a community does not "increase purchasing power". It will drive imports. Importing more goods & services to take advantage of the increased prosperity of the region, which will bring with it more people running those goods & services, which will make basic goods more expensive because labor costs more and there's a higher demand. So, the strength of currency is going down. The most impoverished areas will have the best purchasing power.


When people are in debt or do not make enough money they tend to focus on putting money away. Money that's being stashed is not circulating. Its not going back into goods and services and thus increasing business. It's not being invested anywhere.


The money goes into paying off their debts, which is money the banks reinvest. They can't put it away, because they don't have any money at all. They are forced to use all of their income on bills, and they are forced to work constantly.


So I'll put the same question to you that I do to anyone when this topic comes up: Do you think that the employer should pay the labour cost of the employees they hire or do you think that you and your tax dollars should pay for employee? Thus giving the employer a freebie at your expense?


I mean, it's irrelevant. Either the employer pays them pennies, or the government pays them pennies by taxing the employers. The issue with the taxation is that you are setting up for an even more elite society where some random schmuck can't keep the wealth they made from their entrepreneurship, it just gets funneled through government cronies. This puts an additional gate on people achieving power, meaning people who achieve power are more likely to be selected by those who are already in power.



There's no moral or logical reason for minimum wage to have dropped since 1968 while the value of a worker, measured in productivity, has increased by so many magnitudes. No one in their right mind would say "Fuck yeah, I'll do more work for less money!" so why would you argue for it? I mean, the cost of goods and services certainly hasn't grown cheaper since 1968.


There's certainly a logical reason. Like I said, they get less and less control over money. Want a house? Get a loan. Your living standard is entirely based around your work ethic and how appealing it is to invest in you. Try not to ruin your credit score.

Moral reason? The battle for morality is not going well, as you may have noted with your thoughts on wealth inequality. But, the strategy of making the lower class have a few more pennies is terrible and probably won't improve their quality of life at all. We want to achieve total class mobility, where my idiot colleagues can't prevent random schmucks from competing with them on a high level and injecting their traditionalist morality into the process of moving money.
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Posted 9/10/17 , edited 9/11/17

runec wrote:

It's not that simple. An increase in purchasing power is a boon for everyone involved as it gets goods and services flowing.


But it doesn't make them happen. That's why it isn't an increase in purchasing power.

Imagine Bob drives a truck into town with five hundred pounds of food, and there are a thousand people who each want to buy five pounds of food to feed their family. Only a hundred of them can get that five pounds of food.

What Bob does in this case is say "food, ten dollars a pound!" and he watches a thousand people line up. Then he says "oops, I meant twenty dollars a pound!" and some of them leave. So he keeps raising the price until there are only a hundred people in line, and he sells each of them five pounds of food. Maybe for like, eighty dollars a pound. So four hundred dollars each.

Now, what happens if you give everyone four hundred dollars to buy food?

Well, Bob rolls into town and says "food, eighty dollars a pound!" because he knows everyone has four hundred dollars. And when a thousand people line up, he starts raising the price again until there are only a hundred people.

So how about we just make Bob sell his food for eighty dollars a pound, and then everyone can afford it?

Well, see, Bob still only has five hundred pounds of food. So only a hundred people get their five pounds of food. Only now, instead of it being the people with the most money, it's just the people who show up first.

Aha! But what if we say Bob has to give food to everybody?!

Again, he only has five hundred pounds of food. So everyone gets a half pound of food.

I'm sure that you've noticed by now what the actual problem is. There is not enough food. You can't solve this problem with wages and price controls and regulations. You need more food. No matter what you do to the economy, the purchasing power of the entire community remains exactly five hundred pounds of food. They can't raise their purchasing power because supply is a limiting factor. No matter how many dollars or rubles or quatloos you have in your pocket, you cannot buy more than there is of anything.

And this is the actual problem with poverty. Food, shelter, and clothing are real things that really exist, and we're not making enough of them because it has long ago become more profitable to directly service only the richest customers. It costs significantly less to build a $12 million mansion than it costs to open a sixty-unit apartment building, unless of course you can open sixty luxury condominiums. Meanwhile, growing lower-yield organic crops will feed fewer people, but sell for three and four times the price. The same problem extends to clothing, where you can make a plain cotton t-shirt that sells for $2, or stick a picture on it and sell it for $30.

We aren't making any headway against poverty because we are doing absolutely nothing to address the availability of real things. We need to build more houses and grow more food and manufacture more clothes that poor people can afford. Giving people more money doesn't do this. It just makes everything cost more.
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Posted 9/10/17 , edited 9/11/17

Kavalion wrote:
A raise for workers means there's more money flowing into the community, instead of out of it, being invested elsewhere by the big business & banks. More money in a community does not "increase purchasing power". It will drive imports. Importing more goods & services to take advantage of the increased prosperity of the region, which will bring with it more people running those goods & services, which will make basic goods more expensive because labor costs more and there's a higher demand. So, the strength of currency is going down. The most impoverished areas will have the best purchasing power.



cdarklock wrote:
But it doesn't make them happen. That's why it isn't an increase in purchasing power.


It's interesting that you're both taking oppossing counter arguments. With Kav looking at an admittedly pretty cynical macro view and cd trying to boil it down to a micro x therefore y view.

However, again, there are more factors to this that don't make it so clear cut. As a commodity, labour is currently artificially undervalued by federal minimum wage levels. While conversely, almost half the States have higher minimum wages than the federal and are not economic wastelands as a result. With 3 States currently aiming to phase up to $15. They haven't imploded on themselves as a result.

Now, to clarify, I am not arguing for for an across the board $15 or any specific figure. Minimum wage is also not an element that effects every business and industry in the US. It's pretty much service and retail. So across the board x therefore y arguments don't hold up to the number of factors involved. On the other hand, I'm not quite as cynical or nihilistic about it as Kav ( Damn, dude ).

Here are the problems:
1) Low minimum wage undervalues labour and has not kept up with the cost of living over the last 40+ years in the US.
2) This prevents lower class people from getting their head above water in terms of the poverty line.
3) The cost of poverty is coming out of taxpayer pockets.
4) The cost of dealing with poverty increases exponentially the more severe it is because America is not a third world country.
5) That severity costs far more money than simply tackling the problem at the start.

There's no argument that can get around the issue of the cost of poverty because it isn't a 1:1 dollar issue anymore than the cost of a fire alarm and the cost of an entire building burning down are 1:1 So you can either address the problem closer to the source, let it continue to worsen or give up on being a 1st world country and let people die in the streets.

Minimum wage should be set to and annually adjusted in relation to the cost of living index in a specific area. That's how its handled up here. That doesn't mean demanding a fixed maximum like $15 ( which realistically would tip over the economy of some areas ). It means raising the floor, not aiming for the roof and making sure the floor matches the local economy.



Kavalion wrote:
Moral reason? The battle for morality is not going well, as you may have noted with your thoughts on wealth inequality. But, the strategy of making the lower class have a few more pennies is terrible and probably won't improve their quality of life at all. We want to achieve total class mobility, where my idiot colleagues can't prevent random schmucks from competing with them on a high level and injecting their traditionalist morality into the process of moving money.


That's another problem entirely to be honest and one that's certainly not going to be solved by electing an orange billionaire with a history of tax avoidance.



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Posted 9/11/17 , edited 9/11/17
La Raza.. La Raza


HIDDEN CAM: 'Stealing' Illegal Immigrant's Jobs!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq4WBOkFNtE


I just love hidden cameras.
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Posted 9/11/17 , edited 9/11/17
I should talk about parochialism since it is a core value of the populists and can explain something about this topic. Parochialism is the focus on local issues over the more global issues. Adam Smith, the famous man in the history of Capitalist ideology, support parochialism as he claimed something about the local issues being giving more priority than the global issues. The discussion here seem to be on whether the market would function better on a transnational scale or a more local scale.

I had study some economics and I can say that a more localized market economy would be better. A localized market system could address some variables that are overlooked by the simplistic models of the working of the economy. The Capitalists explain how the free market economy work with some market principals which negate other variables at work. As an example of a negated variable, some Capitalists do say that the free market is "free" but this assume infinite elasticity, or the ability to respond to something. The infinite elasticity is met for the property owning elites, who have the welalth and connection to seek many economic oportunities, but not for the working class, whose economic mobility is so costly that they would accept inequity in their local firm. The globalist sect of Capitalists claim that the globalization of economy benefit everyone on the assumption of infinite mobility. Only the big business have the money to move their plants oversea so their local employees and government need to please the big business.
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