First  Prev  1  2  Next  Last
Post Reply Dishonesty or genuine ignorance? (Earnings discrepancy)
141 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
21 / M / Wales
Offline
Posted 9/29/17 , edited 9/30/17
Men and Women make different amounts of money in life. I'm going to use the US ~22% difference because I think it's a good example. (Compared to the UK which is much more fuzzy) These are what I consider to be the two positions held by the majority of people.

1) Women are discriminated against by society at large resulting in the 22% difference.

2) The wage gap is a myth. (Possible some people are being pedantic about the difference between wages and earning but that just seems unhelpful anyway.)

Problem is, despite these two positions being the most common both of them are blatantly untrue. It seems that the only way to rationalize either is to deny easily available facts and I do see people on both sides aware that these positions are untrue. For example, John Green who believes the wage gap is indicative of discrimination against women made a video on the subject wherein he states that when certain factors are controlled the gap shrinks to 4-7% which he refers to as the 'unexplained wage gap' and believes this to be due to direct discrimination.

So given we have a 4-7% unexplained chunk of income how can either position be genuine? You can't say it's a myth when there is clearly an unexplained difference and you can't use the 22% number when it's clearly untrue. Shouldn't we be discussing and researching that 4-7% difference? I can see one side arguing that this difference has other causes we haven't yet controlled and the other arguing direct discrimination. These are valid positions that should be researched and tested. But I see very few people interested in this unexplained gap.

So my question is, to anyone who takes either the first or second position, why do you ignore the statistics?
16365 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 9/29/17 , edited 9/30/17
Basically the answer is 'mythology', despite you not wanting to hear that. The only real way to think that it is true is to ignore available facts and ignore how people derive any of those numbers.

The "statistics" have been found to be comparing people without regard to hours, experience, pay rates, paid and unpaid time off, or even the same types of work. They're often comparing a man earning $100,000 as a salary to a woman working 10 hours at a part-time job turning burgers.
They have had studies showing that women tend to be both less aggressive about asking for higher starting salaries and wages, and are prone to taking off more time.
They have studies showing that men and women working the same job, with the same amount of experience, tend to make roughly the same amount.
Humms 
13195 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / M / CAN, ON
Online
Posted 9/29/17 , edited 9/30/17
Why would you even waste your time with this nonsense?

Dave chapelle is getting paid more than Amy Schumer. End of fucking story people! The funnier and talented you Are, the more you get paid.

Same goes for the working field.

Same goes for working the same job, but there are also people who get that little extra because of kissing ass, or.... other forms of compensation. It's a dirty and disgusting world out there, people get ahead more than others if they put in their time and voice, and if you don't put in your voice and only your time, they will take advantage of you.

FUCK AMY SCHUMER ! SHE'S NOT FUNNY, GET OVER IT.
12145 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
20 / M / Winnipeg, MB.
Offline
Posted 9/29/17 , edited 9/30/17
So that 4-7% is excluding things like a differing number of average work hours, comissions, jobs where people get payed more or less based on popularity like comedy as Hummms talked about and the fact that the U.S. does not have paid family leave (for some fucking reason) and other things that could influence that?

Well I am a bit skeptical, but I'm definitely interested in seeing the video in question if you feel like sharing it.
141 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
21 / M / Wales
Offline
Posted 9/29/17 , edited 9/30/17

octorockandroll wrote:

So that 4-7% is excluding things like a differing number of average work hours, comissions, jobs where people get payed more or less based on popularity like comedy as Hummms talked about and the fact that the U.S. does not have paid family leave (for some fucking reason) and other things that could influence that?

Well I am a bit skeptical, but I'm definitely interested in seeing the video in question if you feel like sharing it.


I haven't looked too closely at how the 4-7% number is derived but I think it considers hours worked, education, experience and occupation choice.

And sure have a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0EYBBl5LI
23260 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
The White House
Offline
Posted 9/30/17 , edited 9/30/17
Wage gap is myth. It has more to do with men completely dedicating themselves to a company and forgoing a personal life vs women who value their personal lives more and properly take their vacations and time off. Plus men will work on oil rigs and other nasty jobs that women in general want nothing to do with but pay very well, would you want to be stuck on a rig for a month then get 2 weeks off to go home?






: https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/2014-04-04-Gender%20composition-of-the-workforce-by-industry.pdf

Dont forget women who take care of the home/farm but work a part time job which will obviously make less than a full time employed person with specific skills.
16365 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 9/30/17 , edited 9/30/17
Yes. Who could forget unremunerated labor.
52 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 9/30/17 , edited 10/1/17
Cant go into detail but, in non-profits (where i work) its sickeningly true. Men who do the same job as Women are paid more. Maybe not the base rates but all the bonuses, especially if there is a sliding scale attached to a pay level.

The worst part is, if there is a large project or group to manage I personally choose a Woman (experience or not). They have proven time and again they get the job done quicker and more efficiently then their male counterparts. That's not saying I haven't had a man lead a team, I just know if its mission critical there is a Woman in that position.
5489 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
36 / M / Midwestern United...
Offline
Posted 9/30/17 , edited 9/30/17

octorockandroll wrote:

...and the fact that the U.S. does not have paid family leave (for some fucking reason)...


Because we haven't failed that badly. Yet.

Do you know what happens when you add laws like that? You make more people poor and many people irresponsible.

Does no one benefit? Oh, some do. You've got the people who are irresponsible with their planning, savings, and/or insurance - how you're supposed to handle such things. They benefit. You've got the big companies who will take a hit but stay afloat, unlike their smaller competitors who have to eliminate positions, possibly even shut down. Finally, you have some folks who legitimately are trying to do things the right way, be they individuals who did everything right but still needed the help or companies that wanted to provide such a benefit and now aren't going above and beyond for their employees.

There are many such well-intentioned laws in the USA, with similar results. We really don't need another one. If a person wants to negotiate for such a thing, he or she is free to do so.
12145 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
20 / M / Winnipeg, MB.
Offline
Posted 9/30/17 , edited 9/30/17

KamisamanoOtaku wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

...and the fact that the U.S. does not have paid family leave (for some fucking reason)...


Because we haven't failed that badly. Yet.

Do you know what happens when you add laws like that? You make more people poor and many people irresponsible.

Does no one benefit? Oh, some do. You've got the people who are irresponsible with their planning, savings, and/or insurance - how you're supposed to handle such things. They benefit. You've got the big companies who will take a hit but stay afloat, unlike their smaller competitors who have to eliminate positions, possibly even shut down. Finally, you have some folks who legitimately are trying to do things the right way, be they individuals who did everything right but still needed the help or companies that wanted to provide such a benefit and now aren't going above and beyond for their employees.

There are many such well-intentioned laws in the USA, with similar results. We really don't need another one. If a person wants to negotiate for such a thing, he or she is free to do so.


This isn't on topic for the thread, so I won't go into an actual conversation about it, but I will say that every other first world country except the U.S. are fine without paid family leave, it's not that big a deal. And if the new proposed U.S. budget is any indication, making poor people poor, if that was a result of having paid family leave (it isn't) is not a deal breaker for the government.
5489 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
36 / M / Midwestern United...
Offline
Posted 9/30/17 , edited 9/30/17

octorockandroll wrote:

This isn't on topic for the thread, so I won't go into an actual conversation about it, but I will say that every other first world country except the U.S. are fine without paid family leave, it's not that big a deal. And if the new proposed U.S. budget is any indication, making poor people poor, if that was a result of having paid family leave (it isn't) is not a deal breaker for the government.


You are correct, it isn't on topic. Plus, I'm feeling lazy now. Have a good weekend.
12145 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
20 / M / Winnipeg, MB.
Offline
Posted 9/30/17 , edited 9/30/17

KamisamanoOtaku wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

This isn't on topic for the thread, so I won't go into an actual conversation about it, but I will say that every other first world country except the U.S. are fine without paid family leave, it's not that big a deal. And if the new proposed U.S. budget is any indication, making poor people poor, if that was a result of having paid family leave (it isn't) is not a deal breaker for the government.


You are correct, it isn't on topic. Plus, I'm feeling lazy now. Have a good weekend.


same to you.
67807 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
31 / M / Glendale, AZ
Offline
Posted 9/30/17 , edited 9/30/17
There is an wage/earnings gap for sure. It is difficult to say to conclusively whether this wage/earnings gap is "intentionally sexist" or because that's just how it ends up. Certainly, there are people who do go out of their way to make that a woman might earn less than a man in a job. However, with factors like experience and certain jobs being better suited for a specific sex, I think we can only really speculate.
6638 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 9/30/17 , edited 9/30/17
i would say its more 2 then 1 one though thier is a difference for the most aprt its not do to sexism its life choices and such more so then anything

i also think those who support 1 usually think its both ingnorance and and dshonesty in the case of hack green i would say he is very ignorant on such matters to a somewhat idiotic level it seems at times
81335 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
33 / M / Seattle
Online
Posted 9/30/17 , edited 9/30/17
People believe stupid things all the time. It gives them something else to place the blame for their failures on. Simpletons can blame religion when life sucks for them. A person who just got hit by a car can say "It is just gods plan for me" even though they might have walked into the street without looking. The "wage gap" myth is no different. We see that with all these female comedians or sports athletes, such as the FIFA US Soccer team. They can use this myth to propagate the idea that they are discriminated against. Because in the females eyes the males are comedians or soccer players and the females are comedians or soccer players. Therefore they should be paid the same.

Really this myth is still around because there are a lot of evil people out there. Most people who might not know what we know about the myth generally are busy with other things in their life. Thus they do not have the proper tools to rebut the claims. Evil people take advantage of the fact that these people, who might not have the time to care about a first world problem, are genuinely decent people and want to continue being such. There is also the case of schools, specifically K-6, where children can just believe whatever the teacher says and never think critically.

Such is life, all we can do is try to inform people and spread the facts when asked or challenged.
First  Prev  1  2  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.