Post Reply When Supernatural Battles Became Commonplace - Hatoko's meltdown revisited
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Posted 10/3/17 , edited 10/3/17
I’ve recently watched the show, and while I’m late to the party on a lot of anime, I still like to discuss it.

I read through a lot of the discussion from the locked thread, but I would like to weigh in myself.

TL;DR summary: Hatoko does not resent Jurai’s chuunibyou habits, but she fears her inability to understand them, along with his growing relationship with the other girls in the Literature club has opened a widening gap between them.


I think everyone from that thread had good points. It’s always said there are 3 sides to a divorce (argument in this case): His side, her side and the truth. I think the show gave us just enough information to be dangerous in figuring out the truth of this whole debacle. I think both parties contributed to what transpired as well. Although I will say, not many people discussed Hatoko’s conversation with Tomoyo’s brother after the event. There was some limited discussion about Jurai’s conversation with Tomoyo though. I think both of these conversations were meant to give some revelatory insight to both characters about the other, as well as help the audience understand their mindsets going into the argument.


Okay, so let’s start off with what actually triggered Hatoko’s outburst. There was some disagreement in the original thread over whether her frustration at not being able to understand Jurai or jealousy of Tomoyo triggered the outburst. I contend that it was both, and that perhaps neither on their own would have caused the outburst.


Some people said there was no evidence of jealousy, because she did not fight with Tomoyo. That’s not in her character; she did not fight with Mirei either. Also, I think it is possible for Hatoko to be jealous of Jurai’s relationship with other girls, while not resenting those girls. For evidence I would point to her soliloquy while running away from Jurai’s house. She said that she had known Jurai the longest, yet understood him the least. She doesn’t state that none of the other girls are good enough for Jurai, she merely laments that her relationship with him suffers because she does not understand him. Further evidence of her jealousy comes during her conversation with Tomoyo’s brother. He tells her that happiness, above all else, is to be chosen, and Hatoko says that she wishes Jurai would choose her.


Several episodes before, there was also some discussion about which girls would be featured in which episodes. I think the fact that Hatoko was featured last, fits into this storyline. In the last few episodes, Jurai had been getting closer to the other girls in the club. Jurai went to Sayumi’s house several times, worried about her mental and physical health. Their understanding of each other grew when Jurai realized that Sayumi would rather hang out with the Literature Club than be Student Council President, and Sayumi realized Jurai allowed her to beat him up in order to soften the blow that she may not be able to get rid of their powers. Next Hatoko saw Jurai and Tomoyo becoming closer. These were two people who had been at odds throughout most of the previous episodes. Jurai left Hatoko standing at the gate (possibly unknowingly) the day he went back into the club room and caught Tomoyo working on her Light Novel. Then Hatoko saw Jurai and Tomoyo secretly hanging out together on a weekend. Finally on the day of the outburst, Jurai told Hatoko to go on without him, so that he could discuss something with Tomoyo. He told her the discussion would be short, but it ended up being very long. Her curiosity got the better of her and she started asking Jurai to tell her what the two talked about. When Jurai refused, that caused the snap. The words “you wouldn’t understand” were the catalyst, something for Hatoko to latch onto.


This leads me from the jealousy aspect of Hatoko’s outburst, to the part where she is frustrated about not connecting with Jurai’s personality. First I want to go back to something I said earlier, without both aspects, this outburst may never have happened. Hatoko had been dealing with Jurai’s chuunibyou personality for years, and may have happily continued along with it as long as she thought she was as close to Jurai’s heart as the other girls. The fact that Jurai told Hatoko that she wouldn’t understand his conversation with Tomoyo, indicated to her that while she didn’t understand him, another girl who he had been spending time with did. Further worsening the situation is the fact that Tomoyo had been the one to most harshly criticize Jurai’s chuunbiyou personality. Hatoko had been supporting him and his personality for years, yet now Jurai was getting closer to a girl who had done nothing but ridicule him up to that point.


Okay, more on the fact that Hatoko doesn’t understand Jurai. Well, first of all, she does understand the most important part him. She understands his personality, but she does not understand his words. She knows he is a kind person. The flashback to him helping her take the blame for pushing a fire alarm shows that. She knows that he did everything he could to help Chifuyu, she knows that he took a beating, and went through a crisis of guilt to help Sayumi, she knew that he tried to let down Mirei as soft as possible when she misunderstood his letter to her. She knows he is trying to help Tomoyo through some sort of crisis. The opening of her outburst showed that his words don’t match his actions and personality. He is a cheerful and kind person, yet he constantly talks about the darkness within himself, and his evil and sinful ways. To him, these are just amusing terms, yet Hatoko sees them as grave contradictions to the person he really is. The rest of her outburst focused on his interest in quoting philosophers and using verbose language. While it seemed like she was imploring him to change himself, I think she was actually imploring him not to ignore her because she couldn’t understand those concepts. Hatoko is certainly an airhead. Evidence of this goes to when Jurai had to explain the concept of ignoring someone, and why she shouldn’t push fire alarms, just because she saw it on TV. Also reference Jurai’s flashbacks when talking to Tomoyo. He tried to get her interested in his hobbies, and she said she did not understand them. It wasn’t for lack of trying that Hatoko couldn’t understand Jurai’s hobbies. She tried hard enough to be able to recite the names of mythical weapons, philosophers and mental exercises. Jurai then said perhaps he pushed his hobbies on her too hard, and that she resented him for it. That’s when Tomoyo slapped him and told him there was no way she resented him and that she was always happy around him. Hatoko’s opinion on Jurai’s habits was not what caused the outburst; it was the fact that she felt a widening distance between them due to her inability to understand him. She didn’t blame Jurai for her lack of understanding, she blamed herself. Furthermore, Tomoyo’s brother explained to her that it was necessary to let your friends live as they are.


Alright, I think I’ve discussed Hatoko’s mindset enough, time to address Jurai’s responsibility for her outburst. Jurai has been ridiculed for his chuunibyou habits by members of the Literature club, his otaku friend/rival and even his teacher and advisor to the literature club. He seems to have rolled with the punches quite well. He’s been friends with Hatoko for quite a while, and always tried to share his interests with her. Hatoko never understood his hobbies and was never remiss in letting him know that she did not understand them. It seems that he eventually came to the conclusion that he was burdening Hatoko with his hobbies. When he found that one of his biggest critics actually shared his hobbies, he began spending more time with her. He also promised to keep the secret that she was writing light novels. Throughout most of the show, Jurai has shown the ability to read people’s feelings and deduce the correct way to deal with them. In this instance, he failed miserably. Perhaps his long standing friendship with Hatoko made him too comfortable to remember the necessary actions for upkeep of their relationship. Perhaps Hatoko’s unwaveringly cheerful attitude blinded him to the stewing crisis within her. During the conversation that led up to Hatoko’s outburst, she was questioning him on his conversation with Tomoyo. Jurai refused to disclose their conversation. He couldn’t recount their conversation without breaking his promise to keep Tomoyo’s secret, yet at the same time, he was concentrating more of his attention on his texts with Tomoyo than on his conversation with Hatoko. This led him to utter a very insensitive explanation, “you wouldn’t understand”. The explanation and the dismissive tone in which he conveyed it were both insensitive. At the same time, what could he say to Hatoko in order to make her drop her line of questioning and keep his promise to Tomoyo? Considering the fact that Hatoko feared his relationship with Tomoyo was thriving, while her relationship with Jurai was languishing, what could he say without hurting Hatoko? “I promised Tomoyo I wouldn’t tell anyone else”. Well, acknowledging that there is a secret is only a step away from revealing the secret, and still likely to make Hatoko jealous of their relationship. He could have lied, but that certainly is a poor band-aid for keeping a healthy relationship with Hatoko. I think his best course would have been to tell her that he was trying to discern the reason that Tomoyo did not participate in the club activity of writing a Light Novel. That’s both the truth and doesn’t reveal Tomoyo’s secret. If Hatoko pressed him to tell her the reason Tomoyo gave, he could simply contend that it is not his place to speak to others for Tomoyo.


In the previous thread there was some hate being thrown around for Jurai, and a tiny bit for Hatoko as well. I think any hate of these characters by the viewer is misplaced. Jurai is not an ass, and he is not a scumbag (phrases used to describe him in that thread). Jurai has shown compassion and a desire to help his friends throughout the show. At no time did he ever show a desire to put his own wellbeing before that of another person. While he showed an incredible talent for doing what was needed to help his friends in the past, he made a mistake in this episode. His mistake was not deliberate, and he made an immediate attempt to rectify his mistake. Hatoko was not angry at Jurai, and she did not really wish him to change his ways. She was in dire fear that her inability to understand Jurai compounded by his growing relationships with others within the Literature club was driving a wedge between her and Jurai. Her outburst contained a lot that she probably didn’t actually mean, as often happens in an emotionally charged moment.

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Posted 10/3/17 , edited 10/3/17
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I've got 3 more episodes to go, but I have been disappointed that Mirei Kudou got so little screen time after the first 2 episodes. I actually wonder what Jurai's feelings toward her were. He admitted from the outset that he never meant the letter he wrote her to be a love letter, and he seemed anxious about their relationship, but that could easily have been because he knew the girls in the Literature club would be jealous. So far he hasn't really shown any romantic feelings toward any of the girls.
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Posted 10/4/17 , edited 10/4/17
I just watched the last 3 episodes last night.

This may be the first time I have thought I needed to watch an anime from beginning to end again as soon as I finished it the first time.

Hatoko completely confirmed my theory from the first post with her own words however. She said that when she saw Jurai and Tomoyo hanging out, she feared she was losing him. However, neither of the girls got catty with each other. They both show resolve to remain friends, while still competing for the love of the same boy.

This show certainly upheld the creed of great showmen "always leave them wanting more". Unfortunately for English speakers, neither the Manga nor Light Novel have been picked up by a publisher in North America. I can only find a partial fan translation of the first Volume of the novel. Honestly, the actual plot of the story didn't even start to play out until the last 5 episodes. There were so many characters and concepts introduced that we never got to see again.

On the outside, it certainly looks like a typical shonen fantasy supported by a typical harem underpinning, but I thought the story was told in a much better way, and the characters were given more depth than your typical harem characters. There were tangible reasons why all the girls around the main character started to fall in love with him, perhaps other than Meirei at the beginning, but I could easily see her as being a beautiful character who boys are too intimidated to approach, leaving her love starved and eager to jump on the slightest hint of affection.

The main character was someone always wiling to put the well being of others ahead of his own, and help out friends. So, the girls fell in love with him for his kindness. In many other harem anime, either the MC gets all the love because he is an OP hero, or there is no discernible reason at all why girls fall for some awkward MC. The MC in this was severely under powered. Although he was shown to be an extremely kind person, the show took pains to highlight some of his flaws too, as seen in the subject that started this thread.

Also, the show doesn't go out of its way to make it seem like the MC is oblivious the the romantic feelings of the girls around him. He neither acknowledges their feelings, nor does he profess any romantic feelings of his own, but he seems to do his part to spend time with all of them. I think it is completely plausible that he knows all of them have romantic feelings for him, but he is not acknowledging that because he does not want to choose one girl at the expense of the other girls.

I also thought it was interesting that when Jurai met Tomoyo in her chuuni stage, that he warned her that she should change her ways before people dismissed her altogether. So, it seems perhaps that Jurai dropped his chunni habits for a while, and it seemed Tomoyo talked him back into them, while he talked Tomoyo out of hers. I would also say Jurai's chuuni habits were never serious. He was interested in fantasy and hardcore philosophy, but whenever he acted out any abnormalities, he was mainly doing it as a joke.

One thing that gave me pause in the last few episodes however, was Jurai's battle with the girl who stole Mirei's body. What if the woman told him that in order to give Mirei her body back, she would need to make physical contact with her own body? They would be enveloped by flames until they could get to her.

Also at the end, when Tomoyo's brother mentioned the "Virgin Child" was he referring to Jurai or Tomoyo? He said he wanted to save the best battle until the end. Although he has taken an interest in Jurai, so far it's obvious Jurai is nothing special as far as the Fairy War goes, and Hajime obviously cares about Tomoyo as his sister.

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Posted 10/4/17 , edited 10/4/17
I haven't seen this anime, so I can't contribute to the walls of text, but I have seen this scene and wanted to share that apparently it was done entirely on the first take. Saori Hayami knocked it out of the park.
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Posted 10/4/17 , edited 10/4/17

Insomnist wrote:

I haven't seen this anime, so I can't contribute to the walls of text, but I have seen this scene and wanted to share that apparently it was done entirely on the first take. Saori Hayami knocked it out of the park.


If she did that in one take, then she is a master and probably worth more than they pay her.

I haven't watched nearly as much anime, especially subbed as most of the people on this board, but the only other time I have recognized her is from Myriad Colors Phantom World.

As for walls of text...that first post was only 3 pages, single space 11 point font in MS Word

I have a few more rants/editorials typed up to post in the future. Looks like no one will probably want to discuss them though. People never seem to want to discuss old news, and my next two topics are going to be Haganai and Trinity Seven.
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Posted 10/4/17 , edited 10/4/17
I'm still waiting for my 2nd season-_-
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Posted 10/4/17 , edited 10/4/17

HopexLight wrote:

I'm still waiting for my 2nd season-_-


The show basically demands more content, but they plastered the phrase "The End" in several spots in the last episode.

The last Light Novel came out a year ago, I am not sure if it is complete or not, so who knows if they have incentive to make more seasons to sell the Novel.

At this point I would almost be content if someone just translated and published the Light Novel for North America.
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Posted 10/4/17 , edited 10/4/17
Did it follow the light novel? Because the way it ended was a straight up cliff hanger.
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Posted 10/4/17 , edited 10/4/17

HopexLight wrote:

Did it follow the light novel? Because the way it ended was a straight up cliff hanger.


I don't know, I can only find up to Chapter 5 of the first volume translated. I don't even think that covers up to the end of the second episode
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