First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next  Last
Post Reply Why ‘Indigenous Peoples’ Day’ Is Far Worse Than Columbus Day
qwueri 
24480 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
32 / M / TN
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/13/17

TenzenShadow wrote:

Are you serious? Did you really just copy paste the definition of justify as an argument to that lmao. According to your definition the OP would have to have said this...

"The Indigenous people also committed horrendous acts against others and enslaved people, therefore what happened to them was fine and our ancestors did nothing wrong."

Is that really how you read the OP here? or did you simply not read it and assume this ridiculousness? Have you just completely abandoned reality?

Please turn off the auto-leftist responses and try looking at something with some form of objectivity.


"They were just as bad" is a common excuse for claiming previous actions weren't wrong or don't bear reflection. For someone making accusations about reality abandonment and calls for objectivity, you're relying too heavily on a narrow definition and invective to pull it off.
422 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17

qwueri wrote:


TenzenShadow wrote:

Are you serious? Did you really just copy paste the definition of justify as an argument to that lmao. According to your definition the OP would have to have said this...

"The Indigenous people also committed horrendous acts against others and enslaved people, therefore what happened to them was fine and our ancestors did nothing wrong."

Is that really how you read the OP here? or did you simply not read it and assume this ridiculousness? Have you just completely abandoned reality?

Please turn off the auto-leftist responses and try looking at something with some form of objectivity.


"They were just as bad" is a common excuse for claiming previous actions weren't wrong or don't bear reflection. For someone making accusations about reality abandonment and calls for objectivity, you're relying too heavily on a narrow definition and invective to pull it off.


Flawed... logic. You can't assume someone meant a) when they said b) and then hold them responsible for having the view a)

You are making it painfully clear why so many hold views like "Carrots are racist because... carrots" nowadays.
qwueri 
24480 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
32 / M / TN
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17

TenzenShadow wrote:

Flawed... logic. You can assume someone meant a) when they said b) and then hold them responsible for having the view a)


"They should stop protesting because their ancestors were just as bad" tacitly implies that what happened to protestors' ancestors isn't worth protesting because "they were just as bad" as what happened to them. Nevermind the fact that said argument is overly broad in assuming that Aztecs and Iroquois are the ancestors of the people protesting; it's an argument that the status quo is above reproach because of the previous attack on the ancestors' character. The subtext in "they were just as bad" is't subtle.
422 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17

qwueri wrote:


TenzenShadow wrote:

Flawed... logic. You can't assume someone meant a) when they said b) and then hold them responsible for having the view a)


"They should stop protesting because their ancestors were just as bad" tacitly implies that what happened to protestors' ancestors isn't worth protesting because "they were just as bad" as what happened to them. Nevermind the fact that said argument is overly broad in assuming that Aztecs and Iroquois are the ancestors of the people protesting; it's an argument that the status quo is above reproach because of the previous attack on the ancestors' character. The subtext in "they were just as bad" is't subtle.


You are misusing quotes. OP never said anything like that. OP didnt even mention protestors, in fact you are the only one that has. Nor did he comment anything about the "worth" of protesting. Again I ask, did you even read the OP?

"Attack on ancestor's character?" All I see is facts showing that one group was guilty of the same type of actions as the other group at one time. So why take away a holiday and replace it celebrating a people who committed acts worse than the ones that people are offended by.

Nobody said to stop protesting, that is only something you made up and injected into this discussion to try and defend your bs.

qwueri 
24480 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
32 / M / TN
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17

TenzenShadow wrote:

You are misusing quotes. OP never said anything like that. OP didnt even mention protestors, in fact you are the only one that has. Nor did he comment anything about the "worth" of protesting. Again I ask, did you even read the OP?

"Attack on ancestor's character?" All I see is facts showing that one group was guilty of the same type of actions as the other group at one time. So why take away a holiday and replace it celebrating a people who committed acts worse than the ones that people are offended by.

Nobody said to stop protesting, that is only something you made up and injected into this discussion to try and defend your bs.



The OP posts about a holiday protesting Columbus Day. In regard to my indigenous peoples displacement from their ancestral lands, and the OP promotes an argument attacking the holiday because Y and Z peoples did X and thus a holiday commemorating people T through Z is no better than a holiday commemorating the arrival of people M. Again, it's not a subtle or nuanced argument put forth by the OP.
422 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17

qwueri wrote:


TenzenShadow wrote:

You are misusing quotes. OP never said anything like that. OP didnt even mention protestors, in fact you are the only one that has. Nor did he comment anything about the "worth" of protesting. Again I ask, did you even read the OP?

"Attack on ancestor's character?" All I see is facts showing that one group was guilty of the same type of actions as the other group at one time. So why take away a holiday and replace it celebrating a people who committed acts worse than the ones that people are offended by.

Nobody said to stop protesting, that is only something you made up and injected into this discussion to try and defend your bs.



The OP posts about a holiday protesting Columbus Day. In regard to my indigenous peoples displacement from their ancestral lands, and the OP promotes an argument attacking the holiday because Y and Z peoples did X and thus a holiday commemorating people T through Z is no better than a holiday commemorating the arrival of people M. Again, it's not a subtle or nuanced argument put forth by the OP.


Gonna stop responding to you now. You're either just trolling, not even trying, or just dense. Have a nice day sir.
1622 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Canada, Toronto
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17

karatecowboy wrote:

http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/09/indigenous-peoples-day-far-worse-columbus-day/

For all the talk from the angry and indigenous about European slavery, it turns out that pre-Columbian America was virtually one huge slave camp. According to “Slavery and Native Americans in British North America and the United States: 1600 to 1865,” by Tony Seybert, “Most Native American tribal groups practiced some form of slavery before the European introduction of African slavery into North America.”

...

The Aztecs, on the other hand, were more into the “volume, volume, VOLUME” approach to ritual human slaughter. At the re-consecration of the Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan in 1487, the Aztecs performed a mass human sacrifice of an estimated 80,000 enslaved captives in four days.

...

According to an eyewitness account of “indigenous peoples” at work—in this case, the Iroquois in 1642, as observed by the Rev. Father Barthelemy Vimont’s “The Jesuit Relations”—captives had their fingers cut off, were forced to set each other on fire, had their skinned stripped off and, in one captured warrior’s case, “the torture continued throughout the night, building to a fervor, finally ending at sunrise by cutting his scalp open, forcing sand into the wound, and dragging his mutilated body around the camp. When they had finished, the Iroquois carved up and ate parts of his body.”

The whole thing is a bunch of ignorant bigotry, IMO. It really has nothing to do with the actions and the morality thereof, but rather the skin color and identity of the groups. Columbus was a white guy, the natives were darker skinned. Hence, Columbus is evil. As the bigots in academia will tell you "Whiteness is oppression".

I will celebrate Columbus Day. Will you?



I wonder much of your statements is believeable? A political propaganda start off with mostly true statements, which could lead into false assuption with fake context, to gain credibility and then progress into blatant lies. I had state some theory related to this discussion on "Re-evaluating the Meaning of Social Advancement" and I should scrutinize the valitidy of the arguments in the OP of this topic.

Many Native American tribes did practice some form of slavery but their form of slavery are not as brutal as that of the European invaders. The Aztecs did have mass killing but it is conducted in the context where the victims are given some honor. The Aztecs also did not destroy most of the kingdoms of their sacrificial victims and they even re-established their conquered rulers as local administrators of the empire. Despite this, the ritualistic killing can still justify conquest by Spanard but the Aztec ruler actually converted to Christianity and abandon their ritualistic mass killing before they are conquered by the Spanish invaders so the Spanards actually had no justification for the eventual conquest.

On the Iroquois case, I doubt the validity of a report from the church leaders since the Christians of those days often make exaggerating lies of non-Christians to fit reality into their religious worldview. Those Christians also refuse to understand the cultures and religions of non-European so they often assumed a fake context of the any actions from outsiders along with the associated misunderstanding. From one of my speculation, the Iroquois may had witnessed unimaginable brutality from a group of European colonizers and might had been trying to the commit the same brutality toward the Jesuits without realizing that the Jesuits do not support the same brutality.

Also, Columbus is called evil not because he is white; he actually commit unimaginable brutality toward the friendly Native American tribe that save him and crew on his first voyage. The altruistic acts and hospitality from those Native Americans had allowed him to report the existance of America to Europe. The cruelty that Columbus return to that Native American tribe for their kindness and vital achievement include: forced labor to death, mass raping, forced walking in public with mutilated body. Even the Columbus crews report this cruelty of their captain as well. There are also now many strong evidences that all the famous discovery that is credited to Columbus are actually discovered by other Europeans beforehand.
For example, there are suspicion that Columbus had actually learned of America from another European who are secretly trading with the Native Americans. One of the evidence for this suspicion come from the reaction of an Native American tribe on their first meeting with the Frech explorers; on the first sight of the French explorers, those Native Americans travel on their canoes to the French and display valuable goods for trading.
77832 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
51 / F / Toronto
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17

TenzenShadow wrote:


qwueri wrote:


TenzenShadow wrote:

You are misusing quotes. OP never said anything like that. OP didnt even mention protestors, in fact you are the only one that has. Nor did he comment anything about the "worth" of protesting. Again I ask, did you even read the OP?

"Attack on ancestor's character?" All I see is facts showing that one group was guilty of the same type of actions as the other group at one time. So why take away a holiday and replace it celebrating a people who committed acts worse than the ones that people are offended by.

Nobody said to stop protesting, that is only something you made up and injected into this discussion to try and defend your bs.



The OP posts about a holiday protesting Columbus Day. In regard to my indigenous peoples displacement from their ancestral lands, and the OP promotes an argument attacking the holiday because Y and Z peoples did X and thus a holiday commemorating people T through Z is no better than a holiday commemorating the arrival of people M. Again, it's not a subtle or nuanced argument put forth by the OP.


Gonna stop responding to you now. You're either just trolling, not even trying, or just dense. Have a nice day sir.


you make me laugh.

9752 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
28 / M / Enemy Territory
Online
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17
I always get a kick out of these feeble attempts to rationalize colonialism. You can point all you want to all the awful things the natives did to outsiders and each other, but the simple truth is white Europeans did much of the same awful things to the natives on a much larger scale and didn’t stop until relatively recently.

And that’s just the way it is.
12101 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
35 / M / People's Republic...
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17

watylicious wrote:


You know what they say, if a little is good, more must be better.



Heh.


cdarklock wrote:


That's exactly what I think of your stupid article.


I'm not sure those words mean what you think they mean.


-OlE- wrote:

well.......i mean the aztecs did perform ritual sacrafice, sometimes in absolutely staggering numbers
as for the part about the Iroquois, my immediate reaction was to be very skeptical since this account was coming from a Missionary however from the admittedly shallow amount of digging i did online tonight it appears to be legit
I'm far from a expert on this subject, but from my laymans perspective here, nothing he said really seems to be objectively false


Shhhhhh. Don't you know? The Feelz > The Realz!



PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Isn't this just "Tu Quoque", or the hypocrisy fallacy; where essentially, one attacks the moral standing of the person making the claim, then addressing the claim itself?

I understand your point I suppose, as I too find it annoying when someone is holier than thou without any self awareness, but two wrongs don't make a right, nor does a considerably larger wrong make the original one any less "worst".

A wrong of theirs doesn't make our wrongs any less horrendous.

Examples of similar arguments:

"A murderer saying murder is wrong? What a load of bollocks. Murder is not wrong." (Hypocrisy)

"Hey, just because I choose to feed you once a day, there are people in North Korea who go weeks without food. Be grateful!" (Comparative)


I think it's more about the blatant hypocrisy, myth of the noble savage, and false equivalence between general Western and general native civilization.




FruitPunchSamurai987 wrote:

Leif Erickson day is clearly the superior holiday.


Not a bad suggestion.


qwueri wrote:


"But they were just as bad" in response to indigenous people protesting what happened to their ancestors is an attempt at justification. Or at the very least an attempt to shut down protests. Stay classy.


I think it's more about pointing out the blatant hypocrisy. At least, it is for me.

I think it's worth pointing out that the majority of natives who died from contact with Europeans did so from diseases to which they had no immunity or resistance. Pioneers would go out and find whole towns empty, even though it was their first visit there. This was well before germ theory, BTW.


TenzenShadow wrote:


How does anything he said attempt to justify anything. He simply stated that the past of some Indigenous tribes were just as bad if not worse then the misdeeds done by our forefathers. So why replace one holiday with another. Cute how you say "historical practices" vs "evil shit" basically. Seriously, thanks for the good laugh.


This. When a white guy pokes you in the eye it's 'evil'. When a red guy rips out your heart for Quatzecoatl it's "historical practices and indigenous culture".
Ejanss 
17125 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17

JanusCascade wrote:


Ejanss wrote:

Also, because it's WRONG:
FDR didn't establish Columbus Day to honor Imperialist Genocidal Oppressors of Saintly Native People, he established it to commemorate and pay tribute to Italian-Americans in the US, after their "favorite son", when good immigrant citizens were facing suspicion and persecution before the war.
Anyone who disagrees, feel free to hold an Indigenous People's Day parade in your own old Jersey neighborhood.

(Seriously, it's as wishfully and goofily misinformed of its facts as that "Racist Dr. Seuss" thing...Hoo-boy.)




I'm sorry, Biggus, but when you do that to one of my posts thinking you're funny, it's like you took down your pants and tried to wizz your own name on it--
Could you request the mods delete your post? No, I'm saying YOU ask them.
27474 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
22 / M / Prison
Online
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17

karatecowboy wrote:


watylicious wrote:


You know what they say, if a little is good, more must be better.



Heh.


cdarklock wrote:


That's exactly what I think of your stupid article.


I'm not sure those words mean what you think they mean.


-OlE- wrote:

well.......i mean the aztecs did perform ritual sacrafice, sometimes in absolutely staggering numbers
as for the part about the Iroquois, my immediate reaction was to be very skeptical since this account was coming from a Missionary however from the admittedly shallow amount of digging i did online tonight it appears to be legit
I'm far from a expert on this subject, but from my laymans perspective here, nothing he said really seems to be objectively false


Shhhhhh. Don't you know? The Feelz > The Realz!



PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Isn't this just "Tu Quoque", or the hypocrisy fallacy; where essentially, one attacks the moral standing of the person making the claim, then addressing the claim itself?

I understand your point I suppose, as I too find it annoying when someone is holier than thou without any self awareness, but two wrongs don't make a right, nor does a considerably larger wrong make the original one any less "worst".

A wrong of theirs doesn't make our wrongs any less horrendous.

Examples of similar arguments:

"A murderer saying murder is wrong? What a load of bollocks. Murder is not wrong." (Hypocrisy)

"Hey, just because I choose to feed you once a day, there are people in North Korea who go weeks without food. Be grateful!" (Comparative)


I think it's more about the blatant hypocrisy, myth of the noble savage, and false equivalence between general Western and general native civilization.




FruitPunchSamurai987 wrote:

Leif Erickson day is clearly the superior holiday.


Not a bad suggestion.


qwueri wrote:


"But they were just as bad" in response to indigenous people protesting what happened to their ancestors is an attempt at justification. Or at the very least an attempt to shut down protests. Stay classy.


I think it's more about pointing out the blatant hypocrisy. At least, it is for me.

I think it's worth pointing out that the majority of natives who died from contact with Europeans did so from diseases to which they had no immunity or resistance. Pioneers would go out and find whole towns empty, even though it was their first visit there. This was well before germ theory, BTW.


TenzenShadow wrote:


How does anything he said attempt to justify anything. He simply stated that the past of some Indigenous tribes were just as bad if not worse then the misdeeds done by our forefathers. So why replace one holiday with another. Cute how you say "historical practices" vs "evil shit" basically. Seriously, thanks for the good laugh.


This. When a white guy pokes you in the eye it's 'evil'. When a red guy rips out your heart for Quatzecoatl it's "historical practices and indigenous culture".


I do dislike the romanticized notion of such a stereotype, so I agree. I take it that your declaration of celebrating of Columbus Day to be some sort of sarcasm then? Not sure what you mean of the equivalence of such, but I do agree what is done IS done. I also see no reason to celebrate Columbus Day, I think. It does pave the way for the existence of the United States, but that seems a bit egocentric to me, considering the atrocities that has happened.
9752 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
28 / M / Enemy Territory
Online
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17
It probably isn’t a good idea for someone of white European ancestry to keep a genocidal atrocity scoreboard.
5505 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
28 / M
Offline
Posted 10/10/17 , edited 10/10/17
Yes, lets celebrate the people who were murdering, raping, stealing land from there own people way before the white man arrived.

Also, Columbus never reached the Americas.
First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.