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Political Disunity
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25 / M / Oregon
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Posted 7/14/07

Hotsoup wrote:

How do we rely on the masses? Everything is decided by the President and Congress...Yea the masses elect them, but thats it. They don't make any of the decisions. How is "The prosperity and increase of quality in life for America and American citizens" going to be our downfall? When we become too...prosperous?....I don't really understand what you're trying to say in this argument.


You just proved the problem we are having, which I also stated earlier... the problem is NOT the system. You see, the system we have, our little Libertarian Democracy, is supposed to be run by the people. Rephrase: WE the people are supposed to say what we want, and how we want it done, and the president, and the congress enforce those decisions. What is wrong with our government, is the people who "enforce" our decisions. They don't. They enforce decisions that grant them extra power and priveleges, not what the public really wants. If we wanted a system where we have no say, which is what our system almost is, we would ask for a Tyrrany.

However... the last part, about prosperity or whatever being our downfall... I have no idea what that is about either.
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Posted 7/14/07

Hotsoup wrote:

How do we rely on the masses? Everything is decided by the President and Congress...Yea the masses elect them, but thats it. They don't make any of the decisions. How is "The prosperity and increase of quality in life for America and American citizens" going to be our downfall? When we become too...prosperous?....I don't really understand what you're trying to say in this argument.


That’s not what I said. I said a friend of mine suggested that political disunity will be the fall of America.

Also, you’re not 100% right. The president and other elected officials do make most of the decisions. But we vote on things. For example, up until recently it was illegal to gamble here. When we decided to change this law there was a vote. The people agreed that we should have casinos and now we do.

This being said I pointed out that the reason I don’t agree with the statement is because America is a representative democracy. Basically I pointed out what you noted. That in many cases America gives a front of democracy while actually keeping the power somewhere else.

Now, with that noted, the point of this thread is to discuss the flaws of democracy and to compare and contrast it to other forms of government.


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30 / M / IL
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Posted 7/14/07
hm okay now I understand what the thread is about now ;p

I'm not really sure where you mean by "here", but in most of America it is still illegal to gamble.

I think our style of government is okay, but not the best. In the practical aspect it just doesn't make sense for everyone to vote on every single issue. I would say the vast majority of people just wanna live their lives and not have to deal with political things everyday. Hence why we elect people to do it for us. I really don't like democracies, not because I'm not deciding things, but more just cuz it takes soooo long for anything to get done. In my opinion I think dictatorship with him having advisors is the best. He says "Do blah blah" and then it gets done. The only problem is deciding who that person should be... I've thought about it before, but could never think of the best way of finding the best person...
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Posted 7/14/07
and that power that is kept "somewhere else" is kept with whoever pays us enough. Yes sir, money is everything these days, even able to buy the most steel-caged moralist.
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Posted 7/14/07
To quote Winston Churchill "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

The problems:
*the masses aren't always right
*its too slow
*political parties suck
*etc

The solutions:
* A firm handed genius dictator who everyone loves and is incorruptible
* incorruptible communism/socialism
* anarchy where everyone gets along anyways
* a form of government no one has thought up yet, or at least I don't know about

So pretty much we're stuck where we're at
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27 / M / Chicago
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Posted 7/14/07

notruthinaworldoflies wrote:

To quote Winston Churchill "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

The problems:
*the masses aren't always right
*its too slow
*political parties suck
*etc

The solutions:
* A firm handed genius dictator who everyone loves and is incorruptible
* incorruptible communism/socialism
* anarchy where everyone gets along anyways
* a form of government no one has thought up yet, or at least I don't know about

So pretty much we're stuck where we're at



That's called Utopia. :P
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25 / M / Oregon
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Posted 7/14/07
^Yeah, since all of those are in a perfect little world. Not going to happen anytime soon... :\
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26 / M
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Posted 7/14/07

notruthinaworldoflies wrote:

To quote Winston Churchill "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

The problems:
*the masses aren't always right
*its too slow
*political parties suck
*etc

The solutions:
* A firm handed genius dictator who everyone loves and is incorruptible
* incorruptible communism/socialism
* anarchy where everyone gets along anyways
* a form of government no one has thought up yet, or at least I don't know about

So pretty much we're stuck where we're at


Winston Churchill also calls his political adversaries ugly, so what does that tell you?
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39 / M / in my body
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Posted 7/14/07
how many of you people on this forum have actually left the United States and visited other countries or fought for the freedom you are enjoying right now?
Posted 7/14/07

SeraphAlford wrote:

Personally I dislike democracies and monarchies alike. I know this is out of character for an American, and unpatriotic, but honestly I think an oligarchy or diarchy is better than a dictatorship or republic. Here’s why:

Honestly I find it better to have the power within the hands of an educated minority than an ignorant majority. (And the majority is ignorant, especially in America.) Also, I think people are too ambivalent. Take the current war, for example. First we all cheer it on, then things get rough and everybody is suddenly against it. (Mind you I don’t like the war myself, but I do feel we need to finish what we started. Even though we’re not gaining anything from it.) If the people succeed in getting us out of the Middle East then this will be the second war we have lost because of politics. The Vietnam War is a perfect example.

We had more manpower and resources then our enemy. We have better weapons, training, and more of them too. This being said in weaponry we had quantity and quality on our side. In men we have quantity and quality. In nearly every way we had the advantage. So why did we loose? Because our generals and soldiers weren’t being allowed to do their job. People were freaking out about politics and then we say, “Don’t shoot at them when they are near this holy ground,” (as seen more in this war) or “Don’t shoot unless they shoot at you!”

Basically what I am saying is that in a democracy we rely on the masses, but they are tainted by ignorance and the opiates of the media. They’re too busy fighting each other to fight their real enemy. When in all actuality ever political party is seeking the same thing. The prosperity and increase of quality in life for America and American citizens.

Somebody recently suggested to me that this will be the fall of America. Eventually another World War will break out and because of our power and ill reputation (thank you Bush family!) we’re probably going to be the targets. Because people are uncertain and their loyalties are questionable we will probably loose.

I disagree, but do you? Why do I disagree? Because America is a representative democracy. I can elaborate if you like, but I think the statement is self explanatory when pared with the rest of this comment.


seraph, my former friend, democrasy works. people dont. people are spoiled, they protest and bitch and get what they want and when they do finally get it they want something completely different. if people would make up thier minds, democrasy would roll smoother. another thing, we are losing wars because people are mentally weak. everyone was tough before WW2 but after the things witnessed by the soldiers, toughness really got toned down and fathers didnt want their sons to see what they had so they raised them to disagree with war. if people wouldnt devalue the soldier and their cause and let them do their job without protest, we'd win wars quicker, easier and there'd be a lasting peace. people can be real bitches when they are weak. now not all people are weak so this does not apply to everyone.
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28 / M / Tokyo Uni
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Posted 7/14/07

Dendetsu wrote:

Well....My in my opinion, war is the only way to make ANY kind of advance to world peace....As long as there are other countries who hate each other, there will always be war. My solution....Simply destroy them, a few billion human lives wouldn't be that much of a sacrifice to end war....Bush doesn't seem to realize how much power we have....What we need is a President who can actually WIN a war, this war should of been over a long time ago.....Damn retard. >_>


hmm well arent you a war monger(a person whom wants a war)

well just to let you know there are MANY ways other then a war for a country to fall examples.

1.Distablisation of the country's economy
2.infiltration
3. assasination of one's leader and use that time of confusion to strike
4.Corruption in teh higher ranks etc Defence

lol wtf the stuff im saying here could get me arrested for treason...
more ideas but i dont really want to keep going

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23 / M / 地球
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Posted 7/14/07

However, there is some sense in your madness. Without war there could not be peace. The world is like a math equation. It has to balance out. The numbers on each side of the equals sign must be equivalent. Think of it like physics. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be transformed from one form to another. To quote an anime “Equivalent Exchange. To get something man must first give something of equal value” (Full Metal Alchemist.)

Mutual fear breads peace.


That's EXACTLY what I was trying to point out....If they fear us and know our power, they wouldn't dare defy us..


War never brings true peace. In the back of the conquered people's minds, there is a hatred for us, and for what we did to them, that they will never forget. They shouldnt forget. To bring true peace, we must do it in a non-violent way; through communication and understanding.


That was.....The most idealistic bullshit I've heard since Gundam SEED. >_>

While we're trying to get peace with your "Non-Violent" way, they would of used that chance to their advantage and already conquered us....Humans are the most savage beings on Earth, peace can't be achieved in such a way. > _>
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Posted 7/14/07

cron76 wrote:

how many of you people on this forum have actually left the United States and visited other countries or fought for the freedom you are enjoying right now?


Oh oh oh me! I live in the communistic China, Socialistic Canada and ...whatever the states are.

People are idiots. We have to face that fact. If we want to be lead but a bunch of smart people, the best hope we have is what China is doing by having communism (thats not TOO corrupted) mixed with capitalism.

Not saying the people in the Chinese government is smart. Just an example of the style. But since every American is brainwashed that Communism = Satin, there no way that will happen.
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27 / M
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Posted 7/14/07

skygod333 wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

Personally I dislike democracies and monarchies alike. I know this is out of character for an American, and unpatriotic, but honestly I think an oligarchy or diarchy is better than a dictatorship or republic. Here’s why:

Honestly I find it better to have the power within the hands of an educated minority than an ignorant majority. (And the majority is ignorant, especially in America.) Also, I think people are too ambivalent. Take the current war, for example. First we all cheer it on, then things get rough and everybody is suddenly against it. (Mind you I don’t like the war myself, but I do feel we need to finish what we started. Even though we’re not gaining anything from it.) If the people succeed in getting us out of the Middle East then this will be the second war we have lost because of politics. The Vietnam War is a perfect example.

We had more manpower and resources then our enemy. We have better weapons, training, and more of them too. This being said in weaponry we had quantity and quality on our side. In men we have quantity and quality. In nearly every way we had the advantage. So why did we loose? Because our generals and soldiers weren’t being allowed to do their job. People were freaking out about politics and then we say, “Don’t shoot at them when they are near this holy ground,” (as seen more in this war) or “Don’t shoot unless they shoot at you!”

Basically what I am saying is that in a democracy we rely on the masses, but they are tainted by ignorance and the opiates of the media. They’re too busy fighting each other to fight their real enemy. When in all actuality ever political party is seeking the same thing. The prosperity and increase of quality in life for America and American citizens.

Somebody recently suggested to me that this will be the fall of America. Eventually another World War will break out and because of our power and ill reputation (thank you Bush family!) we’re probably going to be the targets. Because people are uncertain and their loyalties are questionable we will probably loose.

I disagree, but do you? Why do I disagree? Because America is a representative democracy. I can elaborate if you like, but I think the statement is self explanatory when pared with the rest of this comment.


seraph, my former friend, democrasy works. people dont. people are spoiled, they protest and bitch and get what they want and when they do finally get it they want something completely different. if people would make up thier minds, democrasy would roll smoother. another thing, we are losing wars because people are mentally weak. everyone was tough before WW2 but after the things witnessed by the soldiers, toughness really got toned down and fathers didnt want their sons to see what they had so they raised them to disagree with war. if people wouldnt devalue the soldier and their cause and let them do their job without protest, we'd win wars quicker, easier and there'd be a lasting peace. people can be real bitches when they are weak. now not all people are weak so this does not apply to everyone.


But people are the backbone to democracy. It can’t function properly if we don’t; moreover, it’s democracy that has made us spoiled. People have become arrogant and put more value in their opinions then they are worth. Put more value in themselves than they have earned. In doing this they dilute themselves into believing that they should get it their way. Democracy, therefore, slowly kills itself. Like a snake eating it’s own tail.

Also, former friend? I never said I wasn’t your friend, just that there’s no point in being on one-another’s buddy lists. Whatever. Doesn’t matter.

Anyway Democracy assumes that everybody will function properly. Rather through a salad bowl method, where each item complements the other but continues with its own unique set of oddities, or a melting pot. Where everything blends together so that everybody has the same ‘flavor’ of an aspiration for America.

However, America is the Athens of our time. Athens continuously changed its goals, what it wanted, and how it wanted it. They went from thespian lovers of cultures, to bellicose imperialists, to liberators of the Greek people. America has follows suit.

Which leads us to my complaint on democracy. We never sit down and focus on something. Instead we get close to capturing our rabbit, near to grabbing our grail, and then see something shinier and go to pick it up. Even though this grail may be the key to prosperity it’s uglier than this shinny nickel right here. The nickel will have no real gain for us, but its prettier so… You get the metaphor?

Democracy slowly, over time, spoils a people. Thus they become lazy and look for the easy way out of things. Take Bushes’ ever-so-popular plan to stop illegal immigrants. Rather than actually fix the problem he wants to put a patch that will eventually fall off again on the hole.



happyxix wrote:


cron76 wrote:

how many of you people on this forum have actually left the United States and visited other countries or fought for the freedom you are enjoying right now?


Oh oh oh me! I live in the communistic China, Socialistic Canada and ...whatever the states are.

People are idiots. We have to face that fact. If we want to be lead but a bunch of smart people, the best hope we have is what China is doing by having communism (thats not TOO corrupted) mixed with capitalism.

Not saying the people in the Chinese government is smart. Just an example of the style. But since every American is brainwashed that Communism = Satin, there no way that will happen.


That’s a crude stereotype. It’s not true. Plenty of Americans actually like communism.
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Posted 7/14/07
But not even close to be even considered a threat. If you ask, majority of the people here will say its bad cause they are educated to think so.

But communism is like any other ideology. It works if people aren't greedy or stupid.
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