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Post Reply Liberals love Trump's tax plan when told its Bernies tax plan.
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Posted 10/23/17 , edited 10/23/17

sundin13 wrote:

First of all, the poor do pay taxes. To say they don't is just dead wrong. Some of it is sales tax, some of it gas tax, some of it is state and local tax, some of it is payroll tax. Even if you fall below the federal income tax threshold, that doesn't mean you pay zero taxes. In fact, the lowest 20% of earners pay about 20% of their income into taxes.

Second of all, the money that they pay over their income typically comes from the government (as I've already stated). This money is not loaned. It is primarily money for necessities such as food and housing that they need assistance with.

But again since you seem to be missing the point and misunderstanding that people below poverty often need government assistance to live, ignore the very poor and just look to the middle class (which was largely the point of my last post). Money that goes to the lower income brackets more efficiently gets transferred back into the economy. That is the point. Its not about how great you personally are at saving, it is about the differences in how giving money to the poor vs giving money to the rich affects the demand side of the economy.


Excuse me, though we were talking about Federal Income tax, I should have specified, poor people don't pay federal income tax, they get money through the federal income tax. This is speaking of federal income tax that is actually labeled as "federal income tax". The average effective rate of federal income tax paid for the lowest quintile is in the negative numbers, around -6%. If you include SSI (around 8%) and some other federal taxes that are not technically "federal income tax", then they pay federal taxes. Payroll tax should not be included in that number, as it is not paid by the employee directly and doesn't show up on a paycheck, it is paid by the employer. So, total federal taxes (not including payroll tax) the lowest quintile pays a couple percent. Most of that is money that is essentially a forced investment account, though.

In order to describe an "increased efficiency" you would need to provide a comparison case. If you are saying that the death tax should be left as is and that instead of decreasing or remove that tax, they should take the amount of income that would have been lost from changes to it and apply it as a decrease in taxes for the middle class and/or the poor, then you have a comparison case, and it may be more efficient do to that.

Edit:
Deleted the last sentence, because it didn't make sense.
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Posted 10/23/17 , edited 10/23/17

ishe5555 wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

First of all, the poor do pay taxes. To say they don't is just dead wrong. Some of it is sales tax, some of it gas tax, some of it is state and local tax, some of it is payroll tax. Even if you fall below the federal income tax threshold, that doesn't mean you pay zero taxes. In fact, the lowest 20% of earners pay about 20% of their income into taxes.

Second of all, the money that they pay over their income typically comes from the government (as I've already stated). This money is not loaned. It is primarily money for necessities such as food and housing that they need assistance with.

But again since you seem to be missing the point and misunderstanding that people below poverty often need government assistance to live, ignore the very poor and just look to the middle class (which was largely the point of my last post). Money that goes to the lower income brackets more efficiently gets transferred back into the economy. That is the point. Its not about how great you personally are at saving, it is about the differences in how giving money to the poor vs giving money to the rich affects the demand side of the economy.


Excuse me, though we were talking about Federal Income tax, I should have specified, poor people don't pay federal income tax, they get money through the federal income tax. This is speaking of federal income tax that is actually labeled as "federal income tax". The average effective rate of federal income tax paid for the lowest quintile is in the negative numbers, around -6%. If you include SSI (around 8%) and some other federal taxes that are not technically "federal income tax", then they pay federal taxes. Payroll tax should not be included in that number, as it is not paid by the employee directly and doesn't show up on a paycheck, it is paid by the employer. So, total federal taxes (not including payroll tax) the lowest quintile pays a couple percent. Most of that is money that is essentially a forced investment account, though.

In order to describe an "increased efficiency" you would need to provide a comparison case. If you are saying that the death tax should be left as is and that instead of decreasing or remove that tax, they should take the amount of income that would have been lost from changes to it and apply it as a decrease in taxes for the middle class and/or the poor, then you have a comparison case, and it may be more efficient do to that.

Edit:
Deleted the last sentence, because it didn't make sense.


Well, the overall point is about demand-side economics so where the money comes from is irrelevant to the point. I really don't know what you are trying to argue here. This part of the discussion isn't really even about the death tax but instead general economics.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

kinga750 wrote:

Hate videos like that. You can go out with a camera and find a handful of idiots to say anything. Also, there is no tax plan.


For some reason though, they seem to congregate in large numbers at places of higher learning. Especially in humanities departments.
nxvb 
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17
I remember a video being made a while back, something about reading Hitler quotes to trump supporters, telling them it's Trump's quotes, and they fully supported it (some even after later being told the quotes were actually from Hitler)

Whats the conclusion of this? Both ends of the political spectrum are crazy, it's really only the people at the middle of the political spectrum that have some sanity
Ejanss 
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

nxvb wrote:

I remember a video being made a while back, something about reading Hitler quotes to trump supporters, telling them it's Trump's quotes, and they fully supported it (some even after later being told the quotes were actually from Hitler)

Whats the conclusion of this? Both ends of the political spectrum are crazy, it's really only the people at the middle of the political spectrum that have some sanity


No, it's that people WANT to be told what they want to hear, no matter how visibly barking-bats**t the person saying it may happen to be:
After all, to disagree with the man is to disagree with the idea--Don't worry, as long as the Magic Man makes our dreams come true and makes us po' picked-on folk finally feel important again, we can sort out all those...other little details later. First things first, priorities, breaking eggs for omelettes, all that.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

nxvb wrote:

I remember a video being made a while back, something about reading Hitler quotes to trump supporters, telling them it's Trump's quotes, and they fully supported it (some even after later being told the quotes were actually from Hitler)

Whats the conclusion of this? Both ends of the political spectrum are crazy, it's really only the people at the middle of the political spectrum that have some sanity


Oh yeah, I thought that one was pretty solid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NzhQWcc7h4

Bonus video: These idiots have no idea and it's hilarious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Zdx97A63s
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

kinga750 wrote:

Hate videos like that. You can go out with a camera and find a handful of idiots to say anything. Also, there is no tax plan.


Agreed. I mean, one thing my professor did was have us draw maps of the world every week, so I get pretty annoyed when I see some video about how Americans don't know geography. They must find the few people playing hooky their whole life.

Also, I'd like to see the tax plan if there's a good look at it somewhere. My dad talked about how the Bush tax cuts affected him, so I'd like to compare it a bit.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

Kavalion wrote:


Agreed. I mean, one thing my professor did was have us draw maps of the world every week, so I get pretty annoyed when I see some video about how Americans don't know geography. They must find the few people playing hooky their whole life.

Also, I'd like to see the tax plan if there's a good look at it somewhere. My dad talked about how the Bush tax cuts affected him, so I'd like to compare it a bit.


Sounds like you had a good teacher. Though, you say "professor". Was this during university?
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

nxvb wrote:Whats the conclusion of this? Both ends of the political spectrum are crazy, it's really only the people at the middle of the political spectrum that have some sanity


exactly. someone has mentioned the horseshoe theory, and the more i read from the left and right, the more it seems to be true.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

nxvb wrote:

I remember a video being made a while back, something about reading Hitler quotes to trump supporters, telling them it's Trump's quotes, and they fully supported it (some even after later being told the quotes were actually from Hitler)

Whats the conclusion of this? Both ends of the political spectrum are crazy, it's really only the people at the middle of the political spectrum that have some sanity


Yeah, they did that for Hillary supporters, too. Thing is, Hitler rose to power off of a lot of good, popular speeches. While I agree that there are some crazies on every side, I don't think there's anything unnatural about agreeing with Hilter when he says, "Our social welfare system is so much more than just charity."

People need to recognize that the evils of Hitler involved wars and genocides, not literally everything he did.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

karatecowboy wrote:
Sounds like you had a good teacher. Though, you say "professor". Was this during university?


True, it was, though I also remember baking giant cookies in the shapes of continents as a child in Social Studies class, where we would use icing to mark major rivers and such.

I think most Americans have a pretty good education. I mean, going to college is not a rare thing these days, and completing high school certainly isn't.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/25/17

Kavalion wrote:
e]

True, it was, though I also remember baking giant cookies in the shapes of continents as a child in Social Studies class, where we would use icing to mark major rivers and such.

I think most Americans have a pretty good education. I mean, going to college is not a rare thing these days, and completing high school certainly isn't.


That's a pretty cool way to learn geography. "I'm eating Maine now!".

Unfortunately, a college education isn't what it used to be. I've seen where college freshman today couldn't pass a high school entrance exam from the early 1900's. Americans, even college educated ones, are generally terrible at geography. Unfortunately, we're even worse at math. I don't think it's going to get any better, either.

That said: I read an article that Trump's tax proposals would make the budget deficit neutral. At this point, that is a very, very, very good thing. Have you heard the same?
mxdan 
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/25/17

karatecowboy wrote:


Kavalion wrote:
e]

True, it was, though I also remember baking giant cookies in the shapes of continents as a child in Social Studies class, where we would use icing to mark major rivers and such.

I think most Americans have a pretty good education. I mean, going to college is not a rare thing these days, and completing high school certainly isn't.


That's a pretty cool way to learn geography. "I'm eating Maine now!".

Unfortunately, a college education isn't what it used to be. I've seen where college freshman today couldn't pass a high school entrance exam from the early 1900's. Americans, even college educated ones, are generally terrible at geography. Unfortunately, we're even worse at math. I don't think it's going to get any better, either.

That said: I read an article that Trump's tax proposals would make the budget deficit neutral. At this point, that is a very, very, very good thing. Have you heard the same?


That just isn't even remotely true.

https://www.ted.com/talks/james_flynn_why_our_iq_levels_are_higher_than_our_grandparents

Testing has become more difficult because of the scope of our knowledge base increasing. Education quality is decreasing because standardized testing and primary focus on STEM fields leads to disinterest for many children. Which in turn makes it harder to learn psychologically. But to say that an education in the 1900's was better? Come on now.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/25/17

mxdan wrote:


That just isn't even remotely true.

https://www.ted.com/talks/james_flynn_why_our_iq_levels_are_higher_than_our_grandparents

Testing has become more difficult because of the scope of our knowledge base increasing. Education quality is decreasing because standardized testing and primary focus on STEM fields leads to disinterest for many children. Which in turn makes it harder to learn psychologically. But to say that an education in the 1900's was better? Come on now.



Could you pass this test? Do you think most college graduates or even students could pass this test?

http://grandfather-economic-report.com/1895-test.htm
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Posted 10/25/17 , edited 10/25/17
I looked at the questions and no I couldn't pass the test. But really that doesn't mean much half of it is because you're not taught most of those things in school because its out of date basically and partially because the units and terms may have been standard at the time it was published but now with modern terms, units and vernacular it is just hard to understand.

I dont think it means that we are less smart then before just we are taught different things from what was taught then.
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