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Post Reply Virtue signaling a moral facade
qwueri 
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Posted 11/14/17 , edited 11/15/17

GrandMasterTime wrote:

The increased usage of "virtue signalling" comes from conservatives like Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopoulos using it I would of thought. Accusations of Virtue signalling come from all over the political spectrum as well. Ever heard people criticise people sending out thoughts and prayer for a recent tragedy? That's an accusation of "virtue signalling".


Milo is certainly an alt-right figure, and looking at Ben Shapiro's career with Brietbart and the Dailywire he was at least within that circle before he started criticizing Trump. Despite what PragerU has been running in recent adds trying to redefine the alt-right as leftists, the alt-right centers around young conservative circles.

Most of the time I see someone criticize "thoughts and prayers" it's a criticism about not enough being done by people who are capable of action. Whenever I see the term "virtue signaling" thrown about, it's in reference to some white dude claiming to be feminist. While you might be able to render each down to an accusation of hypocrisy, there's a distinct disdain for the position of support for a cause someone is "signaling" their support for that typically isn't shared in criticisms of "thoughts and prayers".
Posted 11/14/17 , edited 11/15/17

qwueri wrote:


GrandMasterTime wrote:

The increased usage of "virtue signalling" comes from conservatives like Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopoulos using it I would of thought. Accusations of Virtue signalling come from all over the political spectrum as well. Ever heard people criticise people sending out thoughts and prayer for a recent tragedy? That's an accusation of "virtue signalling".


Milo is certainly an alt-right figure, and looking at Ben Shapiro's career with Brietbart and the Dailywire he was at least within that circle before he started criticizing Trump. Despite what PragerU has been running in recent adds trying to redefine the alt-right as leftists, the alt-right centers around young conservative circles.


I love you Qwueri but I can't take the claim that Milo is an alt-right figure seriously. The Alt-Right is a white Identitarian movement that promotes the idea of a white etho state. It is regarded as highly anti semitic (Milo is a jew, Ben's also in the same boat here ) and it certainly dislikes the idea of whites not making children with other whites (Milo just recently got married to a black man supposedly).

On the topic of Ben Shapiro here is a report from 2016 that puts him at #1 for the most amount of anti Semitic hate directed towards him in that year. You can guess who sent the majority of the abuse I'm sure, the Alt Right.


https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/assets/pdf/press-center/CR_4862_Journalism-Task-Force_v2.pdf

Really? That's pretty intellectually dishonest of them, could you link me one of their articles?


Most of the time I see someone criticize "thoughts and prayers" it's a criticism about not enough being done by people who are capable of action. Whenever I see the term "virtue signaling" thrown about, it's in reference to some white dude claiming to be feminist. While you might be able to render each down to an accusation of hypocrisy, there's a distinct disdain for the position of support for a cause someone is "signaling" their support for that typically isn't shared in criticisms of "thoughts and prayers".


A good example of that would be if a guy proclaimed that he was a feminist and harped on about male privilege on media but was later found to be guilty of raping a woman. Which happened recently I believe. Well of course there's a distinct disdain for feminism signalling as there is a distinct disdain for people who like to say they're going to be praying about something, I wouldn't deny that. I'm just saying that cracking down on virtue signalling isn't exactly an Alt Right speciality.
qwueri 
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Posted 11/14/17 , edited 11/15/17

GrandMasterTime wrote:
I love you Qwueri but I can't take the claim that Milo is an alt-right figure seriously. The Alt-Right is a white Identitarian movement that promotes the idea of a white etho state. It is regarded as highly anti semitic (Milo is a jew, Ben's also in the same boat here ) and it certainly dislikes the idea of whites not making children with other whites (Milo just recently got married to a black man supposedly).

On the topic of Ben Shapiro here is a report from 2016 that puts him at #1 for the most amount of anti Semitic hate directed towards him in that year. You can guess who sent the majority of the abuse I'm sure, the Alt Right.

https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/assets/pdf/press-center/CR_4862_Journalism-Task-Force_v2.pdf

Really? That's pretty intellectually dishonest of them, could you link me one of their articles?

...

A good example of that would be if a guy proclaimed that he was a feminist and harped on about male privilege on media but was later found to be guilty of raping a woman. Which happened recently I believe. Well of course there's a distinct disdain for feminism signalling as there is a distinct disdain for people who like to say they're going to be praying about something, I wouldn't deny that. I'm just saying that cracking down on virtue signalling isn't exactly an Alt Right speciality.


There's a distinct difference between being a figure a movement listens to and picks up language from, and a leader of that movement. Both Milo and Shapiro have done work with Breitbart, which notoriously aims messaging at the alt-right. So long as the messaging is what they're wanting to hear, be it anti-liberal/feminism/transgender/etc. I highly doubt they care about the messenger's ethnicity. At least up until they criticize Trump.

As for PragerU: https://www.prageru.com/courses/political-science/what-alt-right

And largely when I see "virtue signaling", it's not just the act of signaling, it's a disdain for the subject itself. In the case of your example, it's not just that the guy is a hypocrite, it's that anyone would dare claim to be for feminism. It's a term not just used to describe confirmed hypocrites, but to also used to call into question anyone's sincerity for the subject they espouse.
Posted 11/14/17 , edited 11/15/17

qwueri wrote:


There's a distinct difference between being a figure a movement listens to and picks up language from, and a leader of that movement. Both Milo and Shapiro have done work with Breitbart, which notoriously aims messaging at the alt-right. So long as the messaging is what they're wanting to hear, be it anti-liberal/feminism/transgender/etc. I highly doubt they care about the messenger's ethnicity. At least up until they criticize Trump.


Hitler was a figure for the Nazism movement. Hitler was a Nazi. Benito Mussolini was a figure for the Italian Fascism movement. Mussolini was an Italian Fascist. Stalin was a figure for Stalinism, Stalin was a Stalinist. Milo is a figure for the Alt Right movement. Milo is an Alt Righter? This just seems disingenuous to me. Richard Spencer is a figure for the Alt Right movement, Milo is not. I don't think the criteria for being a figure should be as loosely defined as " listens to and picks up language from", I'm a hard core evangelical and I listen to and pick up language from Dr. Bart Ehrman(An Atheist New Testament scholar).


Thankyou, it seems they do make a good point about the Alt Right and the "left" having similar beliefs surrounding "identity" being key but sadly at least for PragerU that doesn't remove them from the right side of the spectrum.


And largely when I see "virtue signaling", it's not just the act of signaling, it's a disdain for the subject itself. In the case of your example, it's not just that the guy is a hypocrite, it's that anyone would dare claim to be for feminism. It's a term not just used to describe confirmed hypocrites, but to also used to call into question anyone's sincerity for the subject they espouse.


I think this is where our lens/perceptions of the world fail us. I watch a lot of "Anti SJW" videos myself and I just get the perception that they make it more about the individual rather than the movements they subscribe to. Of course, I see a lot of sweeping generalisations but I always prescribe that to the internet being full of irrational people. For instance I've been seeing a lot of crazy comments on YouTube recently, I don't take them seriously.
qwueri 
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Posted 11/15/17 , edited 11/15/17

GrandMasterTime wrote:

Hitler was a figure for the Nazism movement. Hitler was a Nazi. Benito Mussolini was a figure for the Italian Fascism movement. Mussolini was an Italian Fascist. Stalin was a figure for Stalinism, Stalin was a Stalinist. Milo is a figure for the Alt Right movement. Milo is an Alt Righter? This just seems disingenuous to me. Richard Spencer is a figure for the Alt Right movement, Milo is not. I don't think the criteria for being a figure should be as loosely defined as " listens to and picks up language from", I'm a hard core evangelical and I listen to and pick up language from Dr. Bart Ehrman(An Atheist New Testament scholar).


There were a number of news papers before the rise of Nazism that espoused anti-semitic, nationalistic, and anti-communist views. That doesn't' mean every one of those papers turned into Nazi papers, but it doesn't diminish their influence on the rise of the Nazi party.

There's good reason that Milo and company get labeled as "alt-lite", they were espousing portions of the alt-right sentiment before white nationalists took the reigns. That doesn't detract from Milo or Brietbart's influence on the alt-right in it's formation.




I think this is where our lens/perceptions of the world fail us. I watch a lot of "Anti SJW" videos myself and I just get the perception that they make it more about the individual rather than the movements they subscribe to. Of course, I see a lot of sweeping generalisations but I always prescribe that to the internet being full of irrational people. For instance I've been seeing a lot of crazy comments on YouTube recently, I don't take them seriously.


Alot of the awful things said by the alt-right aren't "taken seriously", it still influences perception of their discourse.
Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

qwueri wrote:


GrandMasterTime wrote:

Hitler was a figure for the Nazism movement. Hitler was a Nazi. Benito Mussolini was a figure for the Italian Fascism movement. Mussolini was an Italian Fascist. Stalin was a figure for Stalinism, Stalin was a Stalinist. Milo is a figure for the Alt Right movement. Milo is an Alt Righter? This just seems disingenuous to me. Richard Spencer is a figure for the Alt Right movement, Milo is not. I don't think the criteria for being a figure should be as loosely defined as " listens to and picks up language from", I'm a hard core evangelical and I listen to and pick up language from Dr. Bart Ehrman(An Atheist New Testament scholar).


There were a number of news papers before the rise of Nazism that espoused anti-semitic, nationalistic, and anti-communist views. That doesn't' mean every one of those papers turned into Nazi papers, but it doesn't diminish their influence on the rise of the Nazi party.

There's good reason that Milo and company get labeled as "alt-lite", they were espousing portions of the alt-right sentiment before white nationalists took the reigns. That doesn't detract from Milo or Brietbart's influence on the alt-right in it's formation.



Here's the problem, "anti-semitic, nationalistic, and anti-communist views" were at the core of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. "Anti-liberal/feminism/transgender" views are not at the core of the "Alt Right". You're conflating the "Alt Right" with anti PC culture.

If Milo started talking about "Race realism" then you''d be getting into the Alt-Right's ballpark. Feminism/transgender/censorship are mainly centrist/libertarian/conservative talking points (Some conservatives like censorship).



qwueri 
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

GrandMasterTime wrote:


Here's the problem, "anti-semitic, nationalistic, and anti-communist views" were at the core of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. "Anti-liberal/feminism/transgender" views are not at the core of the "Alt Right". You're conflating the "Alt Right" with anti PC culture.

If Milo started talking about "Race realism" then you''d be getting into the Alt-Right's ballpark. Feminism/transgender/censorship are mainly centrist/libertarian/conservative talking points (Some conservatives like censorship).





I don't believe the alt-right and anti-PC culture are easily extricated from one another, there's significant crossover. I've yet to see racist views stop at the basis of race when it comes to othering.

*There's also the fact that both aforementioned journalists have worked for Breitbart, which Bannon has referred to as a platform for the alt-right. That doesn't strike me as a happy accident. The alt-right is aimed squarely at pulling membership from the existing anti-pc corners of the internet.
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