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Post Reply Shooting Near San Antonio
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Posted 11/5/17 , edited 11/6/17
1. Devin Patrick Kelley (the shooter) was dishonorably discharged from the US military and had a history of assault. He should have been barred from purchasing any guns or ammunition under existing background check laws for both of these reasons. How did he acquire these weapons?

2. Before his Facebook page was suddenly deleted, screenshots showed Devin Patrick Kelley had a history of liking atheist, social justice, ant-Trump, and Democrat associated groups along with some rants about his dislike for Christians. Now I am an atheist myself so I am of course not condemning atheism, but I am sensing a possible political and/or religious motive here.

4. He had to drive 35 miles to get to this church. Did he specifically target this church?
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Posted 11/5/17 , edited 11/6/17

Ravenstein wrote:

1. Devin Patrick Kelley (the shooter) was dishonorably discharged from the US military and had a history of assault. He should have been barred from purchasing any guns or ammunition under existing background check laws for both of these reasons. How did he acquire these weapons?

2. Before his Facebook page was suddenly deleted, screenshots showed Devin Patrick Kelley had a history of liking atheist, social justice, ant-Trump, and Democrat associated groups along with some rants about his dislike for Christians. Now I am an atheist myself so I am of course not condemning atheism, but I am sensing a possible political and/or religious motive here.

4. He had to drive 35 miles to get to this church. Did he specifically target this church?


I haven't heard of #2 yet. I should lurk some more I must be falling behind on the current happenings.

I am seeing he preached a militant version of Atheism.



https://www.linkedin.com/in/devin-kelley-bb2923b9



It turns out he has "links to church through his wife's mother".



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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17

RavingDragon wrote:


Shooter was white?

Well, then this is clearly:

-lone wolf
-deranged person
-clearly had issues
-nothing could have been done to help his mental issues
-certainly no gun issues to talk about here
-thoughts and prayers

At least trump will be quiet.


Unless it turns out that he really was an atheist and/or a "leftist" then he clearly had a political motive, hated Christianity and knew exactly what he did. No mental issues whatsoever.
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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17

srlan23 wrote:


RavingDragon wrote:


Shooter was white?

Well, then this is clearly:

-lone wolf
-deranged person
-clearly had issues
-nothing could have been done to help his mental issues
-certainly no gun issues to talk about here
-thoughts and prayers

At least trump will be quiet.


Unless it turns out that he really was an atheist and/or a "leftist" then he clearly had a political motive, hated Christianity and knew exactly what he did. No mental issues whatsoever.


Really unconfirmed banter but I was reading he was an Atheist that complained about Christianity while his wife's mother had ties with this church. He may have taught bible classes at the church at one time. Friends of his complained about him attacking christianity on facebook.

We will see if this is true in the coming days.
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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17

srlan23 wrote:


RavingDragon wrote:


Shooter was white?

Well, then this is clearly:

-lone wolf
-deranged person
-clearly had issues
-nothing could have been done to help his mental issues
-certainly no gun issues to talk about here
-thoughts and prayers

At least trump will be quiet.


Unless it turns out that he really was an atheist and/or a "leftist" then he clearly had a political motive, hated Christianity and knew exactly what he did. No mental issues whatsoever.


Trump just went for "very very sad mental health issue that had nothing to do with guns". So we're going with the default playbook until someone drudges up or makes up enough dirt on him to deflect blame onto a political opponent. If that fails we'll go to Plan B: Faux outrage that anyone would politicize a tragedy by daring to address America's gun problems in the wake of yet another horrifying mass shooting.

Let's just fill in the blanks and get this out of the way:


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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17
Just a note:

The alleged shooter received a Bad Conduct Discharge (BCD), which is not the same as a Dishonorable Discharge. It is possible to purchase firearms lawfully under a BCD. US law prohibits the recipient of a Dishonorable Discharge from purchasing a firearm, it does not prevent the recipient of a BCD from doing so.

It's not said whether his court-martial was conducted under special courts-martial or general courts-martial terms, although I suspect it was a special court, since assault (3 counts, 2 against his wife, 1 against his child) should have rated a dishonorable discharge, IMO.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families.
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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17
you guys had one job not to have another shooting for the year.

How do you blow it this badly.

Feel bad for all the families who lost love ones
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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17

MeanderCat wrote:
It's not said whether his court-martial was conducted under special courts-martial or general courts-martial terms, although I suspect it was a special court, since assault (3 counts, 2 against his wife, 1 against his child) should have rated a dishonorable discharge, IMO.


Domestic violence is ( sadly ) one of the most prominent indicators of gun violence and it has a legal loophole.

Just in case you needed something else to ruin your faith in humanity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBuKbe40uWM


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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17
Turns out the shooter was an atheist and was shot by one of the churchgoers as he fled. They chased him for 11 miles then he took his own life line the coward that he was.
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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17
Shooter was shot by a plumber who was called to the scene by his daughter, then pursued by him and another local man who witnessed his death.
http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/sharpshooting-plumber-fired-shot-that-took-down-texas-church-gunman/amp/

Is this the first atheist terror attack? Dude had liked atheist stuff on his FB.

Too late, whoops lol

MysticGon wrote:

Turns out the shooter was an atheist and was shot by one of the churchgoers as he fled. They chased him for 11 miles then he took his own life line the coward that he was.

Beat by a minute
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/6/devin-patrick-kelley-anti-christian-atheist-outcas/
Bet he regretted tipping his fedora so hard when he got shot.
I hate that there are all these edgey atheists on social media making comments about people asking for prayers. I wonder how they feel now that it turns out the shooter was just like them?
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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17

MysticGon wrote:

Turns out the shooter was an atheist and was shot by one of the churchgoers as he fled. They chased him for 11 miles then he took his own life line the coward that he was.


Even worse, he was a "Born Again Atheist".
Those who grew up in a realm of religion and denounces their religion tends to have extreme views regarding religion for the first few (see: 5-10) years.
I've seen this time and time again; online and in person.
I grew up in a very open household that was not very religious and hold the mentality that everyone is free to believe (or disbelieve) whatever they choose, as long as it doesn't harm another.
On the same note, my environment was filled with those who were very strong believers of their faith (baptist and catholic).
Friends I knew that grew up in "God-fearing homes" and later denounced their faith held such hatred and discontent towards their past religion.

They all say similar things:
"I was lied to. I was told that someone was going to protect me from these horrible things. I was lied to. It was a sham from the beginning. I've been lied to my entire life."

It's okay to be an Atheist, it's okay to be a Catholic.
But when you hold hatred for one or the other, you're kind of losing the point of humanity.
Unfortunately, removing that "blanket" of safety from a person can cause them to have a bit of an identity crisis.
They fail to accept that it's okay to believe or not to believe and it becomes an "us versus them" line of logic.
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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17

MeanderCat wrote:

Just a note:

The alleged shooter received a Bad Conduct Discharge (BCD), which is not the same as a Dishonorable Discharge. It is possible to purchase firearms lawfully under a BCD. US law prohibits the recipient of a Dishonorable Discharge from purchasing a firearm, it does not prevent the recipient of a BCD from doing so.

It's not said whether his court-martial was conducted under special courts-martial or general courts-martial terms, although I suspect it was a special court, since assault (3 counts, 2 against his wife, 1 against his child) should have rated a dishonorable discharge, IMO.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families.


The reason he got a BCD was because of domestic abuse which does prevent him from purchasing firearms federally.
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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17

jewishrapscallion wrote:

The reason he got a BCD was because of domestic abuse which does prevent him from purchasing firearms federally.


Bad Conduct Discharge does not prevent anyone from purchasing firearms at a federal level.


Discharged under dishonorable conditions. Separation from the U.S.Armed Forces resulting from a dishonorable discharge or dismissal adjudged by a general court–martial. The term does not include any separation from the Armed Forces resulting from any other discharge, e.g., a bad conduct discharge


Seeing as he was not discharged on dishonorable conditions, he was still legally allowed to purchase firearms.
This is, of course, according to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) and their regulation handbook.
The military could have considered his action as a "felony" (in civilian terms), followed by a dishonorable discharge to prevent this from happening.
As domestic abuse can be seen as a misdemeanor in the eyes of the law (depending on the act itself), it is likely that the military did not see his act as something that should have been classified under dishonorable discharge.
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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17

Cydoemus wrote:


jewishrapscallion wrote:

The reason he got a BCD was because of domestic abuse which does prevent him from purchasing firearms federally.


Bad Conduct Discharge does not prevent anyone from purchasing firearms at a federal level.


Discharged under dishonorable conditions. Separation from the U.S.Armed Forces resulting from a dishonorable discharge or dismissal adjudged by a general court–martial. The term does not include any separation from the Armed Forces resulting from any other discharge, e.g., a bad conduct discharge


Seeing as he was not discharged on dishonorable conditions, he was still legally allowed to purchase firearms.
This is, of course, according to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) and their regulation handbook.
The military could have considered his action as a "felony" (in civilian terms), followed by a dishonorable discharge to prevent this from happening.
As domestic abuse can be seen as a misdemeanor in the eyes of the law (depending on the act itself), it is likely that the military did not see his act as something that should have been classified under dishonorable discharge.


BCD is done on a case by case basis. People in a BCD can lose their ability to purchase firearms depending on the situation.

A former airman with the US Air Force, Kelley, received a "bad conduct" discharge from the military after charges of assault against his spouse and child led him to be court-martialed.

Military members dishonorably discharged cannot legally purchase a gun, but Kelley's bad-conduct discharge falls just short of that mark.

It's unclear if Kelley's assault charges constituted domestic violence, but such a conviction could have also legally disqualified him from gun ownership.

But even if the assault charges didn't technically go down as domestic violence, assault alone can be treated as a felony, which should preclude gun ownership. And even if the charges didn't go down as felonies, the twin charges carried a maximum sentence of over a year in prison, and therefore should preclude gun ownership.
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Posted 11/6/17 , edited 11/6/17

jewishrapscallion wrote:
BCD is done on a case by case basis. People in a BCD can lose their ability to purchase firearms depending on the situation.

A former airman with the US Air Force, Kelley, received a "bad conduct" discharge from the military after charges of assault against his spouse and child led him to be court-martialed.

Military members dishonorably discharged cannot legally purchase a gun, but Kelley's bad-conduct discharge falls just short of that mark.

It's unclear if Kelley's assault charges constituted domestic violence, but such a conviction could have also legally disqualified him from gun ownership.

But even if the assault charges didn't technically go down as domestic violence, assault alone can be treated as a felony, which should preclude gun ownership. And even if the charges didn't go down as felonies, the twin charges carried a maximum sentence of over a year in prison, and therefore should preclude gun ownership.


Correct.
But in this case, the BCD charge that Kelley had was not sufficient enough to classify it as a dishonorable discharge.
I believe it varies depends on the length of the individual's stay in confinement, at least in the armed forces, whether or not it becomes a "felony class" issue once the person has been properly discharged.
Also, misdemeanor domestic violence is not enough to disqualify someone from purchasing firearms at a federal level.
In order for someone who was convicted of a misdemeanor domestic act of violence to be disqualified from purchasing a firearm, the Lautenberg Amendment criteria must fit the offender.
This means that the offender must be a current or former spouse, parent, or guardian of the victim, OR share a child in common with the victim, OR be a current or former cohabitant with the victim as a spouse, parent, or guardian, OR be similar situated to a spouse, parent, or guardian of the victim.

The good news is that it's been around 150,000 applications for firearms denied under the Lautenberg Amendment.
The bad news is that it isn't always upheld because of regulatory tape or files being classified as military records (like in this case).
The military forces have different classifications for breaking the law while in the "care" of the military and it is not always reported to ATF for filings against background checks.

Additionally, all of the outlets that have any "insight" into Kelley indicate that he was in confinement for twelve months.
His lawyer could have leveraged the charges as misdemeanors (standard legal definition) and made sure his confinement time did not exceed the maximum duration under that classification.
I'm almost certain that Kelley purchased his firearm legally, even if he did skirt the rules a little by applying under an out of state address.
Texas has fewer restrictions on those purchasing firearms as non-residence of their state; as they rely on that state to voice any concerns.
We all know how long it takes for states to communicate to one another on such things.
Since nothing immediately popped up, they assumed that Kelley was good to go and was only purchasing the gun as a non-resident (from what I've seen, thus far).
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