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Post Reply Sexual Assault Mega-thread (Hollywood, Politics, Philosophy, etc.)
runec 
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Posted 11/15/17 , edited 11/16/17

jewishrapscallion wrote:
How do you even know if a "troll" is Russian or not on twitter? Do you work at Twitter and can view their IP addresses?


I know, because there's an entire research program devoted to tracking Russian social media operations:

http://dashboard.securingdemocracy.org/

You can see for example that they just did a complete 180 to put all their effort into pushing the Podesta Group story.

As well as that they've been pushing both sides of the Moore story to keep Americans squabbling with themselves.



mxdan 
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Posted 11/15/17 , edited 11/16/17
I'd like to reiterate that photos of someone being overbearing in interactions aren't substantive to make claims of character. Please refrain from defamation without evidence as it turns this from meaningful conversation to mud slinging. Biden is weird but that's hardly enough to accuse him of being a pedo.

runec 
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

mxdan wrote:
I'd like to reiterate that photos of someone being overbearing in interactions aren't substantive to make claims of character. Please refrain from defamation without evidence as it turns this from meaningful conversation to mud slinging. Biden is weird but that's hardly enough to accuse him of being a pedo.


Biden's not a pedo but he's definitely creepy / handsy with women. Often in scenarios where no one can say or do anything to stop him. I wouldn't accuse him of being a pedophile but we shouldn't sugar coat his behaviour either. It's not "weird" it's sexual harassment. It's unwanted physical contact against women who are powerless to stop him.

We can't crucify Weinstein or Moore and then give Biden a pass just because he's not sexually assaulting anyone. Though by the same measure yes, Biden should not be used as a whataboutism to defend the likes of Moore.
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

sundin13 wrote:

Again, while false accusations are possible, the one being (potentially) false has no bearing on the others. They should be considered independently, and independently the original accusations are about as believable as you can get with something of this nature.

Also, the idea of "they will never believe you" is what gives these sexual predators so much power in the first place. If these accusations are true, the way you are behaving and the way you are dismissing these accusations is exactly how an abuser wants people to act and it is why they often feel untouchable.

I think it is a tough situation for bystanders and there are obvious dangers, but I don't think automatically disbelieving all accusers is the best way to handle things. Let me ask you this, other than a smoking gun which basically never exists for a case such as this, what would make you believe the accusers?


The reality is that decade-old accusations with no proof during election period don't hold as much weight as the left wants it to, as the motivation is fairly obvious which is to influence the voters. This unfortunately does make it easier for real predators to get away with their actions, but it's a necessary precaution to discourage false accusations. Until it's corroborated with real proof or more recent anecdotes that can be properly verified, the accusations fall through.

Even if the victims were real, as long as the accused person denies the allegations, it's something they'd have to accept, and hope that the predator gets busted in the future with somebody else. Presumption of innocence has its own flaws, but it's the philosophy that this country has chosen and the media needs to abide by it. If we want to reverse that line of thinking in order to make accusations with no proof hold more weight, it should be proposed not during election period but sometime else.

Again, one of the accusers being a fraud doesn't automatically disqualify all other accusations. It simply reduces the credibility of said accusations and warrants heavier scrutiny. They should wait until more evidence comes out before arriving to any conclusions. In the case of Anthony Weiner or Harvey Weinstein, the two admitted to their crimes and the evidence was overwhelming to begin with.


mxdan wrote:

I'd like to reiterate that photos of someone being overbearing in interactions aren't substantive to make claims of character. Please refrain from defamation without evidence as it turns this from meaningful conversation to mud slinging. Biden is weird but that's hardly enough to accuse him of being a pedo.


In the photo I quoted Biden looks pretty comfortable with invading the man's personal space. Koigate is evidence that photos can be taken out of context, but I doubt that this is one of those cases. I question whether he has any self-awareness at all.
runec 
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

dindin88 wrote:
The reality is that decade-old accusations with no proof during election period don't hold as much weight as the left wants it to, as the motivation is fairly obvious which is to influence the voters. This unfortunately does make it easier for real predators to get away with their actions, but it's a necessary precaution to discourage false accusations. Until it's corroborated with real proof or more recent anecdotes that can be properly verified, the accusations fall through.


This isn't a partisan issue. Unless you're suggesting The Left(tm) somehow orchestrated an entire town into a conspiracy against Moore? There are 7 accusers along side some odd 30 people who have been interviewed thus far. Up to and including Moore's own co-workers in the DA's office.

No one is standing up for Moore right now except Hannity, Bannon and a small group of Evangelicals. And even Bannon is trying to find a way out of the hole now.



dindin88 wrote:If we want to reverse that line of thinking in order to make accusations with no proof hold more weight, it should be proposed not during election period but sometime else.


Yeah, no. If someone did something horrible to you a long time ago, then you suddenly saw them on TV going on about how awesome they are, you wouldn't speak up? You'd actually go "Well, I mean I know he sexual assaulted me/robbed me/ran over my mom once, but it wouldn't be fair to bring that up during an election when he's telling everyone he's not the kind of guy who would ever do that."?




dindin88 wrote:
In the photo I quoted Biden looks pretty comfortable with invading the man's personal space. Koigate is evidence that photos can be taken out of context, but I doubt that this is one of those cases. I question whether he has any self-awareness at all.


Biden being creepy has straight up been a meme for a couple years now. There's no out of context with the photos. He is America's creepy uncle. >.>
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17
I don't think Biden is creepy. I'm a dad with a little girl. Maybe it's a culture or an age thing with some of you guys.

There's nothing weird about it. I've given my daughter's friends baths and helped them clean up.

Biden's actions are only making it weird because it makes you feel weird.

Moore is a pervert with an alleged past. Pay attention to that.
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

runec wrote:

This isn't a partisan issue. Unless you're suggesting The Left(tm) somehow orchestrated an entire town into a conspiracy against Moore? There are 7 accusers along side some odd 30 people who have been interviewed thus far. Up to and including Moore's own co-workers in the DA's office.

No one is standing up for Moore right now except Hannity, Bannon and a small group of Evangelicals. And even Bannon is trying to find a way out of the hole now.


The number of accusers are nowhere near enough to exaggerate that the entire town has turned against him. Like I stated earlier, in a political climate in which is is politically correct to speak badly of Republicans, you have an unlimited supply of people willing to say bad things about him or exaggerate certain accounts. To expect Roy Moore to accurately recall all the interactions he's had with everybody 40-years ago is ridiculous.

Interviewing 30 people, among which only a handful are making serious allegations, doesn't prove that the man is a predator or a rapist. Quantity doesn't account for discredited accusations, and 30 people isn't that much of a large number if you consider the circumstances. There are hundreds of people that benefit from smearing this candidate, so higher scrutiny would be required compared to a case involving your average Joe, as it involves politics.

It's necessary to see whether the most serious accusations hold water, where one has already failed to do so as the signature was a forgery. The twenty or so vague memories about him being flirtatious 40-years ago merely serve to amplify the most concerning allegations of rape and pedophilia. Potential conflicts of interest and political affiliations should be taken into account. Another one of the accusers, Deborah Wesson Gibson, who worked as an interpreter for Hillary Clinton, might be a good place to start.



http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/10/report-roy-moore-accuser-worked-for-hillary-clinton-joe-biden/


Yeah, no. If someone did something horrible to you a long time ago, then you suddenly saw them on TV going on about how awesome they are, you wouldn't speak up? You'd actually go "Well, I mean I know he sexual assaulted me/robbed me/ran over my mom once, but it wouldn't be fair to bring that up during an election when he's telling everyone he's not the kind of guy who would ever do that."?


It's understandable that a victim might feel like speaking out with #metoo trending, but that has nothing to do with whether the accusation has weight or not. If there's no proof, the accusations amount to a political smear in the midst of a campaign, and presumption of innocence applies to anyone regardless of who you are. The background of the accuser also should be taken into account as people are willing to lie for money. It definitely doesn't justify the 100s of articles liberal outlets ran over the past week. The new evidence is pointing to what could be an orchestrated character assassination.


zangeif123 wrote:

I don't think Biden is creepy. I'm a dad with a little girl. Maybe it's a culture or an age thing with some of you guys.

There's nothing weird about it. I've given my daughter's friends baths and helped them clean up.

Biden's actions are only making it weird because it makes you feel weird.

Moore is a pervert with an alleged past. Pay attention to that.


According to you, what is the girl's expression here conveying?



mxdan 
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

runec wrote:


mxdan wrote:
I'd like to reiterate that photos of someone being overbearing in interactions aren't substantive to make claims of character. Please refrain from defamation without evidence as it turns this from meaningful conversation to mud slinging. Biden is weird but that's hardly enough to accuse him of being a pedo.


Biden's not a pedo but he's definitely creepy / handsy with women. Often in scenarios where no one can say or do anything to stop him. I wouldn't accuse him of being a pedophile but we shouldn't sugar coat his behaviour either. It's not "weird" it's sexual harassment. It's unwanted physical contact against women who are powerless to stop him.

We can't crucify Weinstein or Moore and then give Biden a pass just because he's not sexually assaulting anyone. Though by the same measure yes, Biden should not be used as a whataboutism to defend the likes of Moore.


So being handsy in photo ops is sexual harassment? That's the thing Runec, I have no credible information beyond pictures. And it's not sugar coating the situation to say so. It is weird. And it's debatable whether it is sexual harassment. In sexual harassment several things have to be established; intent and reception. A picture is not credible to do this. It wouldn't hold up in the court of law, let alone anywhere else. But in conjunction with other pieces it becomes strong.

I need more information, or I will not accuse him of anything.
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

dindin88 wrote:
The number of accusers are nowhere near enough to exaggerate that the entire town has turned against him. Like I stated earlier, in a political climate in which is is politically correct to speak badly of Republicans, you have an unlimited supply of people willing to say bad things about him or exaggerate certain accounts. To expect Roy Moore to accurately recall all the interactions he's had with everybody 40-years ago is ridiculous.

Interviewing 30 people, among which only a handful are making serious allegations, doesn't prove that the man is a predator or a rapist. Quantity doesn't account for discredited accusations, and 30 people isn't that much of a large number if you consider the circumstances. There are hundreds of people that benefit from smearing this candidate, so higher scrutiny would be required compared to a case involving your average Joe, as it involves politics.


But why would said people that benefit from smearing this candidate all just happen to be from the same community as him? What benefit are they gaining? What benefit is the mall gaining? What benefit is the former deputy DA gaining? Are you suggesting that a bunch of people who knew him back in the day all suddenly got together to form a conspiracy?

As for "politically correct to speak badly of Republicans" we're talking about farking Alabama. Not down town New York.

Accuser #7 ( who worked at the mall in question ) even has two co-workers that have corroborated her account. All three worked at the mall in question.

Occam's Razor, dude. What's more likely? That this is somehow a vast liberal conspiracy thought up by several women, a number of mall employees and Moore's own coworkers? Or that Moore was a creeper in his 30s? You really think Moore had to ask for a mother's permission to ask her daughter out if he was dating women in their 30s? >.>




mxdan wrote:
So being handsy in photo ops is sexual harassment? That's the thing Runec, I have no credible information beyond pictures. And it's not sugar coating the situation to say so. It is weird. And it's debatable whether it is sexual harassment. In sexual harassment several things have to be established; intent and reception. A picture is not credible to do this. It wouldn't hold up in the court of law, let alone anywhere else. But in conjunction with other pieces it becomes strong.

I need more information, or I will not accuse him of anything.


Biden's grabbiness and weird lurking / kissing are well documented. Like I said it's straight up a meme. It's far more than just that handful of pics there. If he doesn't have his hands on your daughter he has his hands on your wife. Feel free to Google it. It's not like there isn't video to go with the pics. >.>

Also, no, intent isn't a factor with sexual harassment. You can sexually harass someone without intending too. As for reception:



Now, is Biden a pedo? No. But was he really handsy and always right up in the personal space of females of all ages? All the time.



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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17
Al Franken is being put on blast now.
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

runec wrote:

Also, no, intent isn't a factor with sexual harassment. You can sexually harass someone without intending too. As for reception:

Now, is Biden a pedo? No. But was he really handsy and always right up in the personal space of females of all ages? All the time.



I disagree with intent not being a factor. The angle that any reception of sexual harassment being sexual harassment gives no credence to an objective figure we can mediate. If everything boils down to subjectivity the whole thing falls apart, and demonstratively so. Predatory behavior is intent and it can be established if you can prove a pattern of behavior or a power dynamic on an individual basis. I'm still not convinced Biden isn't showing creepy high levels of compassion and that his intent isn't simply to be overtly nice to the people around him.

Now with that said do these people feel uncomfortable, you could make a good argument that some of them do in these photos, but there is still contextual information that is lacking.

Ergo, again, I can't make a valid argument for sexual harassment yet. If I were a lawyer I wouldn't take the case yet, unless I had more information. Do I think it's possible there is a Harvey Wienstein power thing going on that is causing people to be hush? Almost with 100% certainty. But, again, we need more information, else it is little more than a witch hunt.
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

MysticGon wrote:
Al Franken is being put on blast now.


I see that. It looks like it was during rehearsal for a comedy skit?

However, Franken just apologized.




mxdan wrote:
I disagree with intent not being a factor. The angle that any reception of sexual harassment being sexual harassment gives no credence to an objective figure we can mediate. If everything boils down to subjectivity the whole thing falls apart, and demonstratively so. Predatory behavior is intent and it can be established if you can prove a pattern of behavior or a power dynamic on an individual basis. I'm still not convinced Biden isn't showing creepy high levels of compassion and that his intent isn't simply to be overtly nice to the people around him.


I think perhaps you're mixing up sexual harassment and sexual assault a bit? Sexual harassment doesn't need to have intent and indeed the harasser may not even know what they're doing constitutes sexual harassment. That's not to say that there isn't predatory sexual harassment, quite the opposite. But sexual harassment by itself is not automatically predatory in nature.

What Biden's up too is a decent example. It's unlikely that Biden is in any way being predatory or has any sexual intent. But that doesn't mean kissing and touching people without their consent isn't harassing them.

As for the legalities of it. A one off incident you couldn't do anything with but if you were a lawyer and needed to make a case you would use the history of it to establish a pattern of behaviour. As Biden has done it numerous times. I'm not saying there's any legal case there. Just that if you had to make one, it's the pattern of behaviour that could be the stickler.


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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

runec wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
Al Franken is being put on blast now.


I see that. It looks like it was during rehearsal for a comedy skit?

However, Franken just apologized.


He probably should have told her that.
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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

MysticGon wrote:
He probably should have told her that.


Well, he did, judging by her account. The problem isn't that she was unaware, but rather that by her account Franken went way too far in said rehearsal.

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Posted 11/16/17 , edited 11/16/17

runec wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
He probably should have told her that.


Well, he did, judging by her account. The problem isn't that she was unaware, but rather that by her account Franken went way too far in said rehearsal.



Except for the part where he groped her whilst she slept. That wasn't part of the skit she says.
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