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Post Reply Gender confusion?
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Posted 11/24/17 , edited 11/25/17

cdarklock wrote:



Why do people think it's demeaning?


Traps are set by an enemy to hurt people. They're bad things that nobody likes or wants.

Can you see why someone might not want to be called this?
I guess I should stop calling people/things 'the bomb'

vilvec 
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Posted 11/24/17

cdarklock wrote:
Traps are set by an enemy to hurt people. They're bad things that nobody likes or wants.
Can you see why someone might not want to be called this?


If language would be that easy, unambiguous or clear, that would be the case. But it is not.
I can see why some people might not want to be called this.
Doesn't make it demeaning. As example, I consider 'sports fan' demeaning. Still, it's a perfectly fine thing to suggest if you identify someone as a fan of AC Milan or such. Not wanting to be called something doesn't make it demeaning.

The semantic origin might be somewhere different still.
Traps are things that are used to catch something. In our case it could be your interest, your affection.
It lures you to conclusions that are invalid. So it's more temptation or enticement and "trap" would be somewhat a bad choice of words.
But it is what got wider spread for such phenomenon.
What better word would there be? Temptator? Enticer? Lurer? Meh.
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Posted 11/24/17 , edited 11/24/17

vilvec wrote:


cdarklock wrote:
Traps are set by an enemy to hurt people. They're bad things that nobody likes or wants.
Can you see why someone might not want to be called this?


If language would be that easy, unambiguous or clear, that would be the case. But it is not.
I can see why some people might not want to be called this.
Doesn't make it demeaning. As example, I consider 'sports fan' demeaning. Still, it's a perfectly fine thing to suggest if you identify someone as a fan of AC Milan or such. Not wanting to be called something doesn't make it demeaning.

The semantic origin might be somewhere different still.
Traps are things that are used to catch something. In our case it could be your interest, your affection.
It lures you to conclusions that are invalid. So it's more temptation or enticement and "trap" would be somewhat a bad choice of words.
But it is what got wider spread for such phenomenon.
What better word would there be? Temptator? Enticer? Lurer? Meh.


The issue is that people who look like one gender and have the parts of the opposite sex aren't trying to "trap" people into liking their sex.
There have been people who have violently assaulted people over it IRL, and things like that.

But when people use it to talk about fictional characters, it's not entirely the same thing. They're basically just trying to cover themselves after admitting they were attracted to someone of the sex that they claim to reject. Instead of just being comfortable with it.

I have less of a problem with the anti-trans violence trigger of it than with people who are uncomfortable admitting they like a character because of that character's sex. It's the same as the "Well, I'm not gay but if I were, I would like this person." Like, you don't have to suddenly start liking 50/50 men and women to admit that you like one male character. Why is it so important to you to be 100% straight, anyway? It's silly. Just admit you like him.

. . . . . . . . it wouldn't be an issue if this ridiculous species would just get over this silly gender delusion and have everyone wear all styles of clothes, and openly embrace attraction for all types of people.

So basically, the solution to life is for you - yes, you - to just "swing" all ways, like a properly enlightened human.
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Posted 11/24/17 , edited 11/29/17
vilvec 
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Posted 11/25/17

LavenderMintRose wrote:
The issue is that people who look like one gender and have the parts of the opposite sex aren't trying to "trap" people into liking their sex.
There have been people who have violently assaulted people over it IRL, and things like that.

But when people use it to talk about fictional characters, it's not entirely the same thing. They're basically just trying to cover themselves after admitting they were attracted to someone of the sex that they claim to reject. Instead of just being comfortable with it.

I have less of a problem with the anti-trans violence trigger of it than with people who are uncomfortable admitting they like a character because of that character's sex. It's the same as the "Well, I'm not gay but if I were, I would like this person." Like, you don't have to suddenly start liking 50/50 men and women to admit that you like one male character. Why is it so important to you to be 100% straight, anyway? It's silly. Just admit you like him.

. . . . . . . . it wouldn't be an issue if this ridiculous species would just get over this silly gender delusion and have everyone wear all styles of clothes, and openly embrace attraction for all types of people.

So basically, the solution to life is for you - yes, you - to just "swing" all ways, like a properly enlightened human.


Thanks for your answer. I can see better where the idea of "demeaning" comes from. Alas, I cannot agree.

First, let me catch your last sentence.


So basically, the solution to life is for you - yes, you - to just "swing" all ways, like a properly enlightened human.

No worries, I do. I swing all ways, I don't struggle with such. But that is beside the point. You don't need to practice the swinging in all directions to respect the lifestyle of those who do.


The issue is that people who look like one gender and have the parts of the opposite sex aren't trying to "trap" people into liking their sex.
There have been people who have violently assaulted people over it IRL, and things like that.

We disagree on that. Traps have no gender dysphoria. They are something different.
Check out https://youtu.be/2DizsPr0P_4.
He's not pretending to be a woman (check his twitter, he's a happy man). He is an allegory for femininity, a "feminine dream".
Have another example. https://youtu.be/MQ33kLj83h0
This one is about the description (hi depiction of femininity gets much better in later videos). I'll just drop the Google Translation:


Although it is not refreshing, it is not a company employee
I did not wear glasses, I wore a mask and tried playing it.
An adult older sister I plan to take a picture, when I review the screen
It is very bad eyes ... I am reflecting
The throat Buddha and the shoulder width are dandism that can not be suppressed by the father

Those examples are here to highlight the usage of "trap". Trap isn't a word used for transgender. Those traps are happy to talk about how to achieve the feminine look, most go on with their lives in their given gender. Especially MakuMaku Makuchan emphasizes the idea of the "adult older sister", a feminine archetype. It's a lived fantasy and therefore oversaturated and sheer fun without any mundane downsides. It's a form of escapism with the trap being the guide to an erotic phantasy. That's how I understand trap and how I see it used.

The usage you highlight describes something entirely different. It seems to be used in a real life environment to dismiss someone who is in transition. This is not the way it is meant here or in anime as far as I can tell. I don't know on how to seperate it any better. And to be honest: stopping to use trap for the case that I use it doesn't change the problem of acceptance in real life for people in transition, so it's a worthless effort.

I'm happy to have gotten quite a few oppinions on this and seeing that it mostly boils down to the two different usages. I love traps for their zany take on femininty (femininity, not womanliness) and escapism.
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Posted 11/25/17 , edited 11/29/17
Woah, this got confusing and sorta strange fast.
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Posted 11/25/17 , edited 11/28/17


What you said may be true of the subset you describe. But it is good to be aware and sensitive to the fact that many others paint with a broader brush and use 'Trap' to denigrate transwomen.

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Posted 11/25/17
First of all, like the above poster said, most people can't tell the difference between any of this, so when you're talking about usage of a term, this is sort of off the field, but anyway...


vilvec

First, let me catch your last sentence.


So basically, the solution to life is for you - yes, you - to just "swing" all ways, like a properly enlightened human.

No worries, I do. I swing all ways, I don't struggle with such. But that is beside the point. You don't need to practice the swinging in all directions to respect the lifestyle of those who do.


It's not about "lifestyle". If you're judging people by their lifestyle, then you'd label me asexual, since I don't date anyone. I'm talking about being attracted to people, characters, whatever. For example, Kuroh from K and Umi from Love Live are so similar that if anyone is attracted to one and not the other, that's just sexism. I have a problem with the fact that that's considered normal. You don't have to actively date men and women to admit that you like both of them.




The issue is that people who look like one gender and have the parts of the opposite sex aren't trying to "trap" people into liking their sex.
There have been people who have violently assaulted people over it IRL, and things like that.

We disagree on that. Traps have no gender dysphoria.

I didn't mention gender dysphoria. I wasn't specifically talking about transgender people. I was talking about the perspective of people who are offended by the term "trap".

What I'm actually talking about is the idea that all clothes should be for all people, regardless of sex, gender, or anything else. Not that literally every person has to wear literally every style. Just that you should be able to incorporate elements from various areas without having to forge a new identity over it.

Dress should not mean "girl".

What I like are male characters who wear clothes that happen to be things that most people would label as "for girls", but who don't do it as an act, but also don't have gender dysphoria or whatever over it, they just... happen to like those clothes. And they're not bothered by the idea that someone, somewhere, says they don't look manly enough.

Characters like Pierre from [email protected], or Teruma from Unicorn Jr. (or his teammates from my♥milky♥way, as seen in my icon. (https://youtu.be/QkgbOQFdBy8) They wear pink and pastels and frills and sing cutesy songs. They're not doing it either to transition to being girls, or to pretend to be girls for a day. They wear what they want to wear and sing what they want to sing, and the fact that you think only girls have the right to do that means nothing to them. It just means you're crazy and sexist if you think that.

Boys have just as much of a right to wear frills and pastels as girls do, and more boys should wear frills and pastels and long hair.

Men in pink, frilly dresses should be treated the same as women in blue jeans - a non-issue, and if you have a problem with it, you're sexist.




vilvec 
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Posted 11/25/17

papagolfwhiskey wrote:
What you said may be true of the subset you describe. But it is good to be aware and sensitive to the fact that many others paint with a broader brush and use 'Trap' to denigrate transwomen.

Be aware. I didn't describe a 'subset' as there is no overlap of those sets. It's a different set.


LavenderMintRose wrote:

We disagree on that. Traps have no gender dysphoria.

I didn't mention gender dysphoria. I wasn't specifically talking about transgender people. I was talking about the perspective of people who are offended by the term "trap".

What I'm actually talking about is the idea that all clothes should be for all people, regardless of sex, gender, or anything else. Not that literally every person has to wear literally every style. Just that you should be able to incorporate elements from various areas without having to forge a new identity over it.

Dress should not mean "girl".

What I like are male characters who wear clothes that happen to be things that most people would label as "for girls", but who don't do it as an act, but also don't have gender dysphoria or whatever over it, they just... happen to like those clothes. And they're not bothered by the idea that someone, somewhere, says they don't look manly enough.

Characters like Pierre from [email protected], or Teruma from Unicorn Jr. (or his teammates from my♥milky♥way, as seen in my icon. (https://youtu.be/QkgbOQFdBy8) They wear pink and pastels and frills and sing cutesy songs. They're not doing it either to transition to being girls, or to pretend to be girls for a day. They wear what they want to wear and sing what they want to sing, and the fact that you think only girls have the right to do that means nothing to them. It just means you're crazy and sexist if you think that.

Boys have just as much of a right to wear frills and pastels as girls do, and more boys should wear frills and pastels and long hair.

Men in pink, frilly dresses should be treated the same as women in blue jeans - a non-issue, and if you have a problem with it, you're sexist.

Well, good point, I see. It would be quite great to wear whatever one might fancy without being judged. If such would be the case, the term 'trap' wouldn't work (as there would be no gender differences, therefore no markers for femininity or masculinity) and would end up being insulting as you'd accuse the person of not properly expressing him-/herself. Interesting point of view, thanks for pointing it out. It's not entirely new, as Gackt and Mana did the same thing back in the Malice Mizer days. And I'm pretty sure they weren't the first ones on that border either.

As far as I can tell, your view is way beyond commonly used concepts. I see us heading in that direction, but it will need some patience for society to catch up (as it was with blue jeans for women. Wearing those in the 60ties didn't go ...unnoticed). I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that anyone objecting would instantly have to be sexist, but that might be just me.

ps. Sorry for the major derailment.
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Posted 11/25/17 , edited 11/28/17

vilvec wrote:



LavenderMintRose wrote:


Men in pink, frilly dresses should be treated the same as women in blue jeans - a non-issue.

Well, good point, I see. It would be quite great to wear whatever one might fancy without being judged. If such would be the case, the term 'trap' wouldn't work (as there would be no gender differences, therefore no markers for femininity or masculinity) and would end up being insulting as you'd accuse the person of not properly expressing him-/herself. Interesting point of view, thanks for pointing it out. It's not entirely new, as Gackt and Mana did the same thing back in the Malice Mizer days. And I'm pretty sure they weren't the first ones on that border either.

As far as I can tell, your view is way beyond commonly used concepts. I see us heading in that direction, but it will need some patience for society to catch up (as it was with blue jeans for women. Wearing those in the 60ties didn't go ...unnoticed). I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that anyone objecting would instantly have to be sexist, but that might be just me.

ps. Sorry for the major derailment.


I don't think it's a derailment ^_^; I'm not the OP, though, but I think it works with the topic.

All of my stories are set in cultures that have no concept of gender. I don't use any sort of, flashy gender-neutral pronouns in English, because that's not really the point, but in Japanese, there wouldn't really end up being anything to indicate the characters' sexes, except for the constant fanservice pictures of them mostly naked.

They all wear clothes that most people in today's world would call "feminine", and they have long hair and wear a lot of jewelry. One character, Enna, generally would wear a long skirt, a lot of jewelry (necklaces, body chains, arm bracelets, hair accessories/crown, long earrings, etc.), and no shirt.

I feel like exposing people to these sorts of characters does more to move towards that ideal than like, writing essays or waving signs or whatever.

Also, besides Mana (whose gothic lolita brand is still around, I think?), there are a lot more artists like that in Japan. Genderless fashion is something of a niche trend, or at least it was at some point within the past few years? But more with larme kei and cult party kei, I think, than with the types of fashion I like...
and I think there's also more of a trend of cross-cast roles in plays, with male actors playing female characters. Shouta Aoi has done a few, at least. https://youtu.be/IyZMJojwYjI (isn't he the most perfect anything ever?)



Oh! And! On the concept of fashion as self expression, and what makes a self, and who has the right to judge whether someone's fashion expresses their "self" or not (spoiler: no one).

I remember this was an issue with lolita fashion, which I haven't been into for a few years, so I don't know if they still argue about this... but like, some people were basically saying, "if you're a modern American, then gothic lolita fashion can't possibly be any form of self-expression, because it doesn't reflect any form of "modern-American identity", and there isn't some other culture you can claim to be a part of where that's normal cultural fashion, so therefore, it's a costume". I always felt like that was ridiculous. Yourself is only your "true" self if you get it from everyone around you? Being different automatically equals being fake?
It's so silly, because these are always the same people who would say "fight for your right to be different", "fight for your right to be yourself" if what you want to wear is punk, but if it's lolita, then it can't possibly be valid?

This is something that I feel like in Japan, they don't really have much of a problem with. ("they" meaning people who do niche hobbies/fashion in the first place). You're a normal OL 5 days a week, and a lolita on the weekends, and you don't have to prove to anyone that, or yourself, that your lolita "self" is more "true" in order to have a right to wear those clothes.

Fashion, behavior, formation of "self" is always imitation. Imitating the people closest to you doesn't automatically make it more valid. So there's nothing wrong with combining elements in new ways, or creating something new. ..... it's one of those things that you shouldn't have to say, but... being creative isn't wrong, it's actually as right and as important as possible.

Calling someone "fake" is basically just a holier-than-thou way of rejecting them for thinking for themselves.
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Posted 11/26/17
I'll edit this this more after get some more time, and do some research. But for now, here's one.

Kino (Kino's Journey)

I thought that she was a boy, and got confused, when i read the news article in CR about that show. So i decided to check it from MAL, and well, here's the description:

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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/28/17
To the people talking about "trap" being a demeaning term, It's better than some of the alternatives. Grow some thicker skin, too; telling people not to say something makes them want to say it more lol

#3- chan from hackadolls, that one totally got me. #trapped
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Posted 11/27/17

vilvec wrote:
Not wanting to be called something doesn't make it demeaning.


Calling someone something they don't want to be called is demeaning. If you didn't know they don't want to be called that, it is a mistake, and you should apologise once you realise you've done it. If you DID know, then you are a jerk.


The semantic origin might be somewhere different still.


The word itself is not inherently demeaning, and a different cultural climate can change its implications. It's just that under modern cultural standards, the word "trap" is no more appropriate for the trans community than "jigaboo" is for the black community. It's not something you want to say, no matter what the word's history or etymology, and trying to explain why you can totally say it really just makes you more of a jerk.


What better word would there be?


There isn't one, under the current political climate. There's a generally-accepted argument that having words to distinguish among different elements of the trans community is some combination of divisive and fetishistic.

LIke if you use the word "pumpkin" to mean a trans woman who has had her testicles removed, but not her scrotum or penis, and has elected to keep only her hormone-produced breast tissue without adding implants... well, why do you need a word for that? What are you talking about, and to whom? Are you separating these people from the rest of the community to say Bad Things about one or the other, or have you just got some personal sexual fantasy about literally anyone with these particular traits?

(Note: the term "pumpkin" has no established meaning in the trans community, to my knowledge.)

I'm not sure this is right and proper, since among other things that's not how language works. If we need to talk about this one thing and not about another similar thing, we are going to make a word for that one thing. I can see the argument that we shouldn't use "trap" or "shemale," but we're going to use SOMETHING, and if you don't tell us what to use we'll just make something up ourselves. Historically, the trans community has not been happy with that, so unless they give us the vocabulary themselves they are probably gonna have a bad time.

We're arguing a lot these days about who's at fault when someone says a thing and someone else doesn't like it. That's the whole SJW problem in a nutshell, with trigger warnings and safe spaces and words you can't say EVER, but it's really very simple. If someone wants you to stop saying something, you make a basic decision: either you stop because you care how they feel, or you keep saying it because you care about saying it more. But there's a place where you have to make the decision.

Just understand that one side of that decision is "I care more about this word than I do about you." So that's got to be either a really awesome word, or a really shitty person.
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/28/17
Aren't traps called traps because they were created with the intention of deceiving people though? They're different from trans characters and trans people, they're basically fetish characters. Most trap characters are designed to be either overly feminine or ambiguous, with focus on how other people perceive them (the main character & audience) rather than how they perceive themselves.

They're traps because they are created with the intention of luring in straight male viewers, then going "HAHA GOTCHA!!!" They really aren't making any statements about gender identity. It's pure fan service. There's no in-world reason for them to be male, or to dress like that other than to appeal to fans.

I'm not saying that I dislike trans people, trap characters, or want to say anything about toxic masculinity. I just think the reason why they're called traps makes a lot of sense if you consider what the creator intended.
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Posted 11/27/17
Mariandale from Ixion Saga DT. He looks so feminine and like a woman. I got confused the first couple episodes. And for people who don't know Mariandale, the one with the green hair is him:
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