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Post Reply Gender confusion?
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/28/17

XavZz wrote:


hafizarifff wrote:

no one gonna say Nagisa from assassination classroom? i kinda confuse a few early episodes. i know they are using -kun instead of -chan, and the subtitles also wrote boy instead of girl, but i just kinda confuse in the beginning, that's all (plus his body shape also resembles a girl lol)


I was going to mention Nagisa, but my first ever confusion must have been from Naruto.

HAKU



Holy shit you just blew my mind. Who knew that naruto had pre-op trannys in it....?
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/28/17

holyfire11 wrote:

Mariandale from Ixion Saga DT. He looks so feminine and like a woman. I got confused the first couple episodes. And for people who don't know Mariandale, the one with the green hair is him:


...That's literally complete bullshit on the author's part. From whence do those breasts cometh?
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/28/17

cdarklock wrote:


vilvec wrote:
Not wanting to be called something doesn't make it demeaning.


Calling someone something they don't want to be called is demeaning. If you didn't know they don't want to be called that, it is a mistake, and you should apologise once you realise you've done it. If you DID know, then you are a jerk.


The semantic origin might be somewhere different still.


The word itself is not inherently demeaning, and a different cultural climate can change its implications. It's just that under modern cultural standards, the word "trap" is no more appropriate for the trans community than "jigaboo" is for the black community. It's not something you want to say, no matter what the word's history or etymology, and trying to explain why you can totally say it really just makes you more of a jerk.


What better word would there be?


There isn't one, under the current political climate. There's a generally-accepted argument that having words to distinguish among different elements of the trans community is some combination of divisive and fetishistic.
...
We're arguing a lot these days about who's at fault when someone says a thing and someone else doesn't like it. That's the whole SJW problem in a nutshell, with trigger warnings and safe spaces and words you can't say EVER, but it's really very simple. If someone wants you to stop saying something, you make a basic decision: either you stop because you care how they feel, or you keep saying it because you care about saying it more. But there's a place where you have to make the decision.

Just understand that one side of that decision is "I care more about this word than I do about you." So that's got to be either a really awesome word, or a really shitty person.



There is a difference between "something you don't want to be called" and "something demeaning". I'm multiracial, and I don't want to be called even the most polite and correct terms for any race or ethnicity, because that doesn't define me. Even if it's technically correct for some part of my DNA, it's still not correct for how I see myself, so I don't want to be called that. That doesn't make it demeaning.

And even when it might be, for any word, or concept, or action, there are going to be some people who are offended by it. There are a ton of people who are "offended" by my having non-gender-conforming males in my novel and not calling them trans women. There are a ton of people who are offended by women who like m/m pairings. There are probably people who will be offended that a lot of my dark-skinned characters have light hair, or that I don't explicitly state anyone's race (because everyone in my settings is mixed race).

I don't think it's necessarily "just being mean" to not just drop everything and change because you happened to run into the person that's offended by it. Especially on the internet.

------> (Something like "trap" is different, though, because a lot of people are bothered by it... I was going to mention it before, but the people in those links are Japanese... do they use "otokonoko", by any chance? That's different from "trap"... it's translated as "trap", but it really just means "male musume" (男の子 = boy (male child), 男の娘 = replaces "child" with "girl/daughter (musume)") The "trap" thing does come from a mean-spirited Star Wars reference on 4chan, and obviously I can't speak for all 男の娘/crossplayers/whatever in real life in Japan, but.... 男の娘 is a lot more benign than "trap"...

Anyway... personally, I'm against the labels and categories for... not exactly the reasons you give, but close. Like, let's say there are a group of non-gender-conforming people who want to call themselves "pumpkins". But instead of surgical details, let's say "pumpkin" means crossdressing gothic lolita bassists (.....fwiw, thought I'd mention that "brolita" is a term that gets used a lot in English EGL circles to refer to males who wear lolita... I always thought it was a little cringey, but maybe that's just me...). Anyway, these "brolita" bassists decide to call themselves "pumpkins". What if one of them gets bored with lolita, and wants to wear something else instead, like Love Live cosplay? But part of being a "pumpkin" means being a lolita, and cosplay isn't lolita. This person's whole online "persona" is built around being a pumpkin... they either limit themselves to what's in this season's Kera, or they give up all of that.

(Do they even still print Kera now, or is it all Larme?)

Anyway, that's obviously a simplistic example, but if it applies to actual details about your body or lifestyle, there are clear problems... the more defined you make a label, the more you limit people to sticking with a limited life, because no one wants to look like a traitor, or look fake, and that's what they say about people who change their labels...

The reason people would give for a label is, for example, with a case like this, these 男の娘 youtubers don't consider themselves women, and don't plan to transition or get their official documents changed, or anything like that. A label gives them an oversimplified way to differentiate between themselves and the people who do want those things. Some say that a label gives legitimacy, too. Say you're a trans woman, and you know a bunch of people like these 男の娘, but you're the only one you know who does want to transition or anything like that. Or, say you're a guy who knows a lot of trans women, and you like to wear dresses on the weekends, but you don't consider yourself a trans woman. If they ask you about things like transitioning, you might feel awkward saying you don't want to.
In either of these cases, the group might say "you don't understand," or, "you're not one of the normal people, but you're not one of us, either. What are you?" They might expect you to conform to them, or leave.
That's what's always happened to me, both in a gender sense and a racial sense, and even in other things, like being an anime fan but not liking shounen, or being a writer but not liking post-apocalyptic settings. So I just sort of... stopped caring if I'm welcome in anyone's group.
But I'm pansexual, ungendered-but-externally-overly-"gender-compliant" (i.e. everyday Classic Lolita), I live in an area where same-sex couples are common and I grew up knowing same-sex adult couples as much as opposite-sex ones (actually, pretty much all the opposite-sex couples I knew as a kid were divorcing, so if I believed in gender at all, I might have ended up as one of those het-is-ew people...) Anyway, my point is, it's not like I'm trapped between some conservative religious community vs a group of lesbians who are offended by bi/pansexuality, or something like that. And not everyone wants to type out these whole long things about their views or life or whatever. Some people just want to wear their frills and play their bass.
............ if I would just shut up, wear my frills, and draw my pretty boys, I'd probably be better off, but that's beside the point...




(also on the topic of IRL Japanese people online, it's worth noting that having an online/niche/hobby life that's completely separate from your regular life is pretty standard there. Like, in this article from Pixiv -> https://www.pixivision.net/en/a/3033, Japanese anime fans were amazed that Thai anime fans could post anime-related things on their personal social media pages, instead of making essentially a separate identity for it, which is normal to do with hobbies in Japan.)




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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/28/17

LavenderMintRose wrote:
Even if it's technically correct for some part of my DNA, it's still not correct for how I see myself, so I don't want to be called that. That doesn't make it demeaning.


That's true. What makes it demeaning is when someone calls you by those terms even after you tell them you don't want to be. The terms are not demeaning, and your dislike of them does not make them demeaning. The guy being a dick about it makes them demeaning.


I don't think it's necessarily "just being mean" to not just drop everything and change because you happened to run into the person that's offended by it.


That's also true. Sometimes being offended is a way to be mean. The whole "microaggression" thing seems to me like a really convenient excuse to hijack any conversation and make it about social injustice, so I just tell those people to shut the fuck up.

Because it's not always wrong to be mean. The important thing is to know whether you are being mean, so you can match your behaviour to the situation you're in. If it's time to be mean, go ahead and be mean.

But you'll be judged by the decisions you make. So you'd better be okay with however that judgment comes out.
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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/28/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


holyfire11 wrote:

Mariandale from Ixion Saga DT. He looks so feminine and like a woman. I got confused the first couple episodes. And for people who don't know Mariandale, the one with the green hair is him:


...That's literally complete bullshit on the author's part. From whence do those breasts cometh?


I have no idea, man. But they are, no joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CcZsEvZIWU
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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/28/17

MadeDragon wrote:

Don't use "trap." It's demeaning.

The currently running A Sister's All You Need has an example that's potentially interesting, but has a character design that seems too obvious (and may be in-universe.) We'll see how it goes.

Ouran High School Host Club plays with this but the subs, at least, use the offensive "tranny." (Not fluent enough to call out their Japanese.)


It's demeaning because its accurate!
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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/28/17

holyfire11 wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


holyfire11 wrote:

Mariandale from Ixion Saga DT. He looks so feminine and like a woman. I got confused the first couple episodes. And for people who don't know Mariandale, the one with the green hair is him:


...That's literally complete bullshit on the author's part. From whence do those breasts cometh?


I have no idea, man. But they are, no joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CcZsEvZIWU


Apparently, Mariandale is actually a transsexual.

I am not quite sure that counts.
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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/28/17

CrownedSonofFire wrote:


MadeDragon wrote:

Don't use "trap." It's demeaning.

The currently running A Sister's All You Need has an example that's potentially interesting, but has a character design that seems too obvious (and may be in-universe.) We'll see how it goes.

Ouran High School Host Club plays with this but the subs, at least, use the offensive "tranny." (Not fluent enough to call out their Japanese.)


It's demeaning because its accurate!


Thank you for your enlightened opinion.

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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/28/17

cdarklock wrote:


LavenderMintRose wrote:
Even if it's technically correct for some part of my DNA, it's still not correct for how I see myself, so I don't want to be called that. That doesn't make it demeaning.


That's true. What makes it demeaning is when someone calls you by those terms even after you tell them you don't want to be. The terms are not demeaning, and your dislike of them does not make them demeaning. The guy being a dick about it makes them demeaning.


The fictional characters being referred to didn't tell anyone not to use the term. Other people speaking for those characters did.

Like I said, I still see "trap" as being in bad taste, but if there's someone who calls themselves "otokonoko" and thinks that "trap" is a decent translation for that, and isn't offended by it, I feel like there's a limit to how much some random foreign person online can tell them and their audience to use a different term, especially since the characters (and IRL youtubers) in question don't consider themselves transgender...
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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/28/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Apparently, Mariandale is actually a transsexual.

I am not quite sure that counts.


Transexual is an outdated term. but if she's had top sugery and not bottom surgery she could very well have the features of both genders.


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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/28/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Apparently, Mariandale is actually a transsexual.

I am not quite sure that counts.


It does. They joke about it in the show. Obviously you got no sense of humor and have never watched it before.

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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/28/17

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Transexual is an outdated term. but if she's had top sugery and not bottom surgery she could very well have the features of both genders.



I would have used transgender, but I was pretty sleep deprived at the moment.


holyfire11 wrote:

It does. They joke about it in the show. Obviously you got no sense of humor and have never watched it before.



I do have a sense of humor, but within the context of "trap" in its traditional usage, I do not believe a transgender person would really....count.

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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/28/17

LavenderMintRose wrote:

The fictional characters being referred to didn't tell anyone not to use the term.



I'm telling a real human being that other real human beings really do find the term offensive, and if he actually respects them he should stop using it.

He doesn't have to. He can choose, instead, to KEEP using it if he either doesn't believe me or doesn't care. But if he does that, he clearly does NOT respect these people, and is lying about that for some reason.


I feel like there's a limit to how much some random foreign person online can tell them and their audience to use a different term


But a native speaker is absolutely qualified to tell you when your translation is WRONG.

English speakers frequently have trouble with consecutive and multiple vowels in Japanese: the word "oishii" can be hard for us to pronounce. As a result, it is quite easy for an American to say "ushi" instead, so when the hostess asks how you like your parfait an American might easily say "it's a cow!"

This is wrong.

You need to use the right word. You can't go around calling your food a cow. It doesn't matter what reasoning you might come up with to explain why it's a compliment for your food to be a cow, people will just think you are crazy. The chef will not be pleased by your compliment that his food is a cow. He will just think you are a stupid self-important foreign jackass.
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Posted 11/28/17 , edited 11/29/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I do have a sense of humor, but within the context of "trap" in its traditional usage, I do not believe a transgender person would really....count.


I don't think Mariandale is a transgender? Obviously he's a trap, so don't make such a big deal about it. The character is just a 2D drawing. Stop being offended and butthurt about it. Some people just have to make everything serious and you're obviously "one of those people".
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