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Post Reply Roy Moore lost!
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Posted 12/13/17

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


They have their moments, I admit their shit to.. But don't forget I prefer to get my information from the house judiciary committee, and from multiple sources. so it really nothing to do with the parties, because I am not a fan of the party system.


and yet you're very good at repeating one party's talking points as if they are fact.


runec 
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Posted 12/13/17

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:
But don't forget I prefer to get my information from the house judiciary committee, and from multiple sources. so it really nothing to do with the parties, because I am not a fan of the party system.


And yet, as we've discussed before, you tend to universally side with one party and it's associated media regardless of facts or quality of information. So despite your continued protests this claim still rings hollow. There's either a flaw in how or where you gather and vet information or there's flaw in your continuing claim that you're somehow neutral or moderate in this whole affair. Or both.

The House Judiciary Committee is a good example. As such committees are often used by some members for obvious political grandstanding or pushing specific party messages / narratives. Trey Gowdy is one of the absolute worst offenders in this regard. Any given committee tends to be half devoted to the actual issue and half of the same sort of talking bauble head political noise you get from watching pundits.



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Posted 12/13/17
https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/12/sexual-predator-unable-handle-told-no/

Ahhh the beaverton... always funny.
And probably more factual than at least half the 'news' links I see on this forum.
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Posted 12/13/17

GrandMasterTime wrote:
I'm not sure how your political compass test is shocking. You're exactly where I expected you to be from your posts alone. It's also funny you say that he is conservative as he has most likely been branded a "leftist" by the religious right of the 90s.

edit: I guess there is the possibility that you faked your test to bait someone into saying what I've said but I still stand by my belief that you're a radical centrist.


The "shocking" comment was centered around the fact that many people, including the person I was originally responding to with that comment, have called me a leftist/liberal because of some of my views.
There wasn't anything misleading about the results, no baiting was intended.
It was mostly a practice showing that a one-dimensional "political compass" like that doesn't yield comprehensive data that to show someone's overall political view/s.

I'm not even going to try to deny that someone like Darkphoenix would have been considered a leftist in the late 80's and early 90's.
The political spectrum has made quite a few radical shifts in the last 16 years, along with the citizens themselves that can vote now.
Posted 12/13/17
I'm glad.
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Posted 12/13/17

Cydoemus wrote:
I'm not even going to try to deny that someone like Darkphoenix would have been considered a leftist in the late 80's and early 90's.
The political spectrum has made quite a few radical shifts in the last 16 years, along with the citizens themselves that can vote now.


Honestly, I find the spectrum the US has doesn't even work outside of the US. Side effect of having only having a two party system I suppose. I mean, conservatives in my country would be "leftists" according to US politics. While conversely, the typical Democrat would be viewed more as a moderate up here.

The US political spectrum is also largely dominated by social conservatism. Almost to the exclusion of everything else. I don't see any fiscal conservatism. Whenever they need to drum up some outrage and get people to the polls they go for a culture war wedge issue. Rather than any sort of comparison of policy. Keeps people from paying attention to all the rest of the crap going on.

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Posted 12/13/17

runec wrote:


Cydoemus wrote:
I'm not even going to try to deny that someone like Darkphoenix would have been considered a leftist in the late 80's and early 90's.
The political spectrum has made quite a few radical shifts in the last 16 years, along with the citizens themselves that can vote now.


Honestly, I find the spectrum the US has doesn't even work outside of the US. Side effect of having only having a two party system I suppose. I mean, conservatives in my country would be "leftists" according to US politics. While conversely, the typical Democrat would be viewed more as a moderate up here.

The US political spectrum is also largely dominated by social conservatism. Almost to the exclusion of everything else. I don't see any fiscal conservatism. Whenever they need to drum up some outrage and get people to the polls they go for a culture war wedge issue. Rather than any sort of comparison of policy. Keeps people from paying attention to all the rest of the crap going on.



I don't think any 'spectrum' really works. I don't personally buy into any particular party's 'package deal' policies and promises. No one completely matches my wishes. Then there's the personalities that front those policies, who do they actually perform. do they keep their promises, what are the core values that drive them? Finally there is the trade off. I really want X but who do I trust with that and is the one I trust the most worth voting for because after all along with X I'm getting y, z, and A prime.

I see it as something too complex to chart. and even if you did successfully chart say... a values system... how would it actually translate out in a world where what a party says and what it actually does are two different animals.


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Posted 12/13/17 , edited 12/13/17
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Posted 12/14/17 , edited 12/14/17
Good. Given the absolute train wreck that has been this current government administration, it's refreshing to see that some voters are actually willing to react to said train wreck. It gives me some faith in humanity to know that while people are incredibly stupid and will vote against their best interests most of the time, there is a point you can reach where even those people will start to learn. Or at least where those who were too apathetic to bother to vote before actually decide to participate in something so important to our democratic republic.

We have a president and congress that have literally done everything in their power to gut regulations put into place after our economy nearly collapsed near 2008 due to the housing bubble, for example, which could have easily lead to a "great depression" worse than the historical one if not for quick action that was taken to bail out the banks. From the sheer perspective of economics, this administration is doing everything in its power to completely ruin America.

Then you have the current "tax bill," which essentially gives the middle class and poor a temporary tax break while removing many useful deductions, yet also greatly cuts taxes for the rich without it being temporary. This essentially means that the middle class are being baited with the idea of "lower taxes," which essentially expire within a decade or two, just so that they are willing to further support a greater shift of wealth towards the ultra-rich (perhaps in the hope that they will, for the first time in history, be willing to share their gains). Though the reduction in the corporate tax rate was a step in the right direction as far as international competitiveness goes, the tax code was overall a disaster, and the fact that it's basically 500 pages or so when Trump and co. claimed it would be simplified and easy for everyone to understand is a laughable betrayal.

So on and so forth. I won't even mention the countless actions our president and congress have taken since Trump got elected to piss off everyone else in the world and jeapordize our international relations without any real strategic goals being fulfilled, or how they are consistently putting incompetent people into government positions simply so that the policy of "small government" may be successfully completed by literally making it impossible for much of the government to actually function.

Seeing the entrenched party who has political power begin to lose ground, given all of this, is encouraging to me. Unfortunately, even if the Democrats win in the next election and get much of the congress retaken, there's still so much damage that has already been done and still can be done. Trump and everyone who supports him are doing everything in their power to pass laws and to play international politics in a way that will affect an entire generation, regardless of who wins in the future elections.

Plus the Democrats are far from perfect as a party, either, given that they agree with Republicans on many issues (such as being so heavily pro-military and pro-corporation rights for the most part). I would be happy with just getting more sane politicians into office in general, but when Republicans and Democrats alike simply vote against eachother - no matter the issue - I can only assume one of two things. Either everyone who is being elected is a corrupt POS on both sides, or the two major parties are such a powerful influence on their members that nobody can even attempt to cross party lines to form some sort of working compromises and solutions that NORMAL GOVERNING REQUIRES.

Really, the only way to get anything done is to constantly just wait for a given party to mess up everything, then elect the other party into office to undo some of their damage while inflicting their own, rinse and repeat. Hopefully we find a way to break the cycle.

runec 
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Posted 12/14/17 , edited 12/14/17

papagolfwhiskey wrote:
I don't think any 'spectrum' really works. I don't personally buy into any particular party's 'package deal' policies and promises. No one completely matches my wishes. Then there's the personalities that front those policies, who do they actually perform. do they keep their promises, what are the core values that drive them? Finally there is the trade off. I really want X but who do I trust with that and is the one I trust the most worth voting for because after all along with X I'm getting y, z, and A prime.

I see it as something too complex to chart. and even if you did successfully chart say... a values system... how would it actually translate out in a world where what a party says and what it actually does are two different animals.


Well, that was sort of my point with the two party comment. With only two options, any given policy/issue is either one side or the other ( seeing as compromise has become heresy in American politics ). So every issue is polarizing along this line of partisan hostility even if it really shouldn't be. Add on to that that with the American system people register themselves as one team or the other. Further adding to it.

Contrast that to a parliamentary system where you generally have 3-4 major options and a number of minor ones. Without having to stamp a membership card or face personal hostility for choosing the "other" side.

The political compass is looking at it from a strictly poli-sci standpoint. In that respect it is useful and far more insightful than the right/left either/or split in US politics. Measuring values is a different beast altogether.

The Libertarian / Authoritarian measure on the compass though is desperately needed and deeply revealing when it comes to someone's politics. US conservatism has a strong Authoritarian streak that isn't present in Canadian conservatism for example. They want to impose beliefs with or without the will of the people. Whereas in Canada once the people have spoken that's that and trying to force your personal beliefs on others via politics is pretty frowned upon.

I mean, Harper and his Conservatives were awful but despite their beliefs they still weren't going to roll back the clock and revisit abortion or same sex marriage.




dichologos wrote:
Seeing the entrenched party who has political power begin to lose ground, given all of this, is encouraging to me. Unfortunately, even if the Democrats win in the next election and get much of the congress retaken, there's still so much damage that has already been done and still can be done. Trump and everyone who supports him are doing everything in their power to pass laws and to play international politics in a way that will affect an entire generation, regardless of who wins in the future elections.


This is a huge issue in US politics that's really come to a head with the current administration: Simply tearing down, rolling and undoing all of the work the last administration did just because it had a different letter next to it's name. It's an incredibly dangerous precedent. How is the country ever suppose to get anything done if the next guy in just blows it all up? Nevermind the immense damage to the US's political power abroad. Trump's already demonstrated to the world that there's no point in dealing with the US now because they will no longer honour their commitments across more than one administration.




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Posted 12/14/17
It also drives polarisation and extremism.

After all, if your political enemies don't just have different governance ideas to you but will actively use the power of the state to try and grind you into dust then politics becomes a blood sport and no-one is allowed to sit on the fence or entertain any ideas about compromise or negotiation lest they be the next through the wood chipper.

The end point of this is always dictatorship, revolution or civil war.

I wonder how far down this path the United States has already walked...

And wether the point of no return has already been crossed and we are now in the calm before the collapse...
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Posted 12/14/17

runec wrote:
Honestly, I find the spectrum the US has doesn't even work outside of the US. Side effect of having only having a two party system I suppose. I mean, conservatives in my country would be "leftists" according to US politics. While conversely, the typical Democrat would be viewed more as a moderate up here.

The US political spectrum is also largely dominated by social conservatism. Almost to the exclusion of everything else. I don't see any fiscal conservatism. Whenever they need to drum up some outrage and get people to the polls they go for a culture war wedge issue. Rather than any sort of comparison of policy. Keeps people from paying attention to all the rest of the crap going on.



Pretty much.
In a two-party government system it becomes a "us versus them" kind of scenario.
Therefore, we end up having a strict right and left perspective.
My time living in different countries have taught me that politics in the United States, despite influencing a significant portion of the planet, is far more polarizing than anywhere else.
At the same time, it's still quite difficult to single out an individual as purely a "leftist" or "conservative" without ignoring the vast amount of variables involved in one's political ideology.
One can have a strong view on smaller government but still support welfare and social security (this isn't often seen as "rational" but it makes sense if you accept that we've already poured a significant amount of money into these programs as it is.... well, that's another discussion.. not to distract from the topic even more).

This is why a case like Roy Moore versus Doug Jones became a national battleground (to describe the exaggerated coverage).
President Trump has been vocal (err. outspoken?...) about his support for Republican candidates as it would assist him in getting some of his campaign promises through Congress.
This causes a national highlight on local politics that, until recently, the vast majority of the population in the United States simply would not care about.
"Special elections" have been held, off and on, for decades and nobody batted an eye.
Now that it's a "give or take" battleground for every seat (Republican vs Democrat) it gets anywhere between 100-500 hours (or more) of coverage from news outlets; from the women who accused him to those who try to excuse his behavior to the coverage of how "liberals are lying to win the election".
The polarization is what makes discussion almost insufferable to take part in as it's rarely ever a "common ground" discussion.
It's more of a "because the leftists think I'm a conservative, they're a bunch of antifa members calling me a nazi" or "because the GOP is a failing mess, they all can get bent because all of them are Russian spies" kind of discussion (in a back and forth manner).

This kind of mentality applies to the Alabama Special Elections as well as any others that are going to be part of these "battlegrounds" in the next year or two.
Just wait for when 2018 elections start this time next year, there's going to be so much nonsense going on that I may just grab some popcorn and sit up on a skyscrapper to watch the world drown in "fake news" and "socialist agendas" and "Drumpf" comments.
If you thought the 2016 Presidential Elections were rough, I have a feeling next year is going to be even more nonsensical.
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Posted 12/14/17
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/13/how-doug-jones-lost-in-nearly-every-congressional-district-but-still-won-the-state/?utm_term=.0d0acdb354c5

Something interesting that came up on Reddit. Namely, a demonstration of how badly gerrymandered Alabama is. Though Doug Jones won the popular vote by a small margin, the congressional district maps in the state are drawn in a way that had they mattered in the senate election, Moore would have still won six out of seven of the districts.

Congressional District map, with colors indicating who would have won what and how closely:



Overlaid with a map showing the proportion of black voters, the group that undoubtedly carried the vote this election.



Looking at stuff like this, it's not hard to understand why the GOP controls the house of Representatives.
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Posted 12/14/17 , edited 12/14/17

niotabunny wrote:

here lately everything else has been democratic dangerous, but the yearbook thing including other things, and just because one more nuclear toxic guy got in (after all he was part of the civil rights movement back in the day and Clinton supported him) we shall see on all accounts, after all, voting does work all the time, if people get out to vote. but as stated this is history, this is nothing new. and leave it to the left to be toxic and nose rubbing as usual. when the right does it, they are bad, but left do it, it's alright. what's good for the goose is good for the gander... but last I checked isn't Alabama still a red state? there isn't a state out there that is dominantly said color, just means there are more folks in there of said color. even California have some republican representatives. just stating some useless facts for those who are "celebrating"

and apparently the context of roy moore's two quotes are questionable, but after finding the correct ones and how he said them, makes more sense. that's how the media ruins something by running with half or their own path. but it is quite true, since folks don't understand these amendments, or the government has trampled on them (badly in some cases) completely understandable to fix the situation and make more to fix the ones before it. such as women not given the same sentencing for a crime as a man, right to bare arms (as moore points out) is beyond worn out and needs a whole new one, and yes, even slavery. since slavery is still an act to this day (which, before even China became a full country was there slavery and will thus far), but welfare, food stamps... these are a form of slavery, makes you dependent on the government, their slave, you the master... so, nope, slavery is still alive and well in the world, including the states, before we even approach the religious slavery, the culture slavery, sex slaves, etc. I'm tired of work around we need fixing, not repairing, repairing gets these situations, fixing means looking at said piece and instead of picking out what sounds right, this means both sides comes to an agreement and finally fixes the broken links in this so called government. ideally won't happen, but that's what needs to be done.


Last time a Democrat was elected in Alabama was in 1992 ,which is why Democrats view this as a victory. California on the other hand elects at least one Republican per year.

The left is just as toxic as the right when it comes to politics.

If Doug Jones does a good enough job it's very possible to turn Alabama into a swing state.

Roy Moore's campaign team still did a shitty job at defending the statements which left a cloud of doubt in the minds of voters especially among black voters.

"You know people don't understand how some of these amendments have completely tried to wreck the form of government that our forefathers intended."

This is rich coming from a former judge, who on multiple occasions tried to rule with religious feelings over actual law.

A state electing the same political party over,and over for many years is also a form of slavery.
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Posted 12/14/17

Mishio1 wrote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/13/how-doug-jones-lost-in-nearly-every-congressional-district-but-still-won-the-state/?utm_term=.0d0acdb354c5

Something interesting that came up on Reddit. Namely, a demonstration of how badly gerrymandered Alabama is. Though Doug Jones won the popular vote by a small margin, the congressional district maps in the state are drawn in a way that had they mattered in the senate election, Moore would have still won six out of seven of the districts.

Congressional District map, with colors indicating who would have won what and how closely:



Overlaid with a map showing the proportion of black voters, the group that undoubtedly carried the vote this election.



Looking at stuff like this, it's not hard to understand why the GOP controls the house of Representatives.


Geez

you know I'm pretty sure in Canada we have an independant body that would look at a map like that and say

"Oi, what do you think you're playing at here?"

Pretty sure we have one, I should check, Harper may have tried to get rid of it while he was hacking away at our system

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