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Post Reply Anime industry needs jail
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Posted 12/16/17 , edited 12/16/17

dichologos wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

I'm not very concerned with drawings and their "age". Most aren't even a decade old in human years.

But the age of consent is 13 in Japan with some restrictions on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent#By_country_or_region


I'm fairly certain that the general age of consent in Japan is 16 or 18, since local areas all tend to have it passed at around that level. Even if the national "default" age is 13 or so, though as you said there are restrictions all around.

But really, that's a bit irrelevant here. Everybody always tries to justify fictional depictions of characters from Japan or similar as being acceptable because "but it's legal there," while ignoring the more relevant argument of "it's FICTION, THEY ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE, NOBODY IS BEING HURT IN ANY WAY."

I don't know about all of you, but I find that a "crime" is something that should involve a "criminal act." Criminal acts should involve something that causes an actual harm to others specifically, or to society as a whole (though this should be done far more carefully). This sort of thing certainly isn't hurting anyone in particular, so the only argument to be made about it being "wrong" is to make a claim that it hurts society, even though there's zero evidence for such or reason to believe this.

Unless you're some sort of religious fundamentalist who believes everyone who watches or looks at fictional depictions is going to Hell or something, but people who are mentally unstable like that any believe in fairy tales are not exactly people that I think should have their opinions taken seriously. If you think that fiction of any kind is "bad" for someone to like, then it's hard to take that opinion remotely seriously.



Lol I pretty much made the same argument in the poll topic they are referencing. Drawings dont have rights, cannot violate a drawings rights, why waste police resources on this stupid shit.
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Posted 12/16/17 , edited 12/16/17

lawdog wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

I'm not very concerned with drawings and their "age". Most aren't even a decade old in human years.

But the age of consent is 13 in Japan with some restrictions on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent#By_country_or_region


You need to read more.

Because although that's the actual AoC for Japan, the only places it actually applies, perhaps, are uninhabited islands...and even there the Child Welfare Act forbidding fornication with anyone under 18, would probably apply. Also, the individual prefectures all have their own laws on the subject, setting ages and also setting exceptions. including for closeness of age as well as for romantic reasons with parental consent.

The one thing that the world can agree about regarding AoC is that no one can agree about it.

In the USA, 31 states set the age at 16, 8 at 17, and 11 at 18.

In Europe:

15 nations set the AoC at 14: Albania, Andorra, Austria, Bulgaria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Estonia, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Montenegro, Portugal, San Marino, and Serbia;

12 nations set the AoC at 15: Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Greece, Iceland, Monaco, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Sweden;

20 nations set the AoC at 16: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Finland, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Moldova, Netherlands, Northern Cyprus, Norway, Russia, Spain, Switzerland, Ukraine, and United Kingdom;


2 nations set the AoC at 17: Cyprus and Ireland; and

3 nations set the AoC at 18: Malta, Turkey, and Vatican City.

The other continents have similar disparities. One thing to note: There can be other issues, so never assume that just because a law says a certain age that there might not be important strings attached.


I'm not that interested in becoming a Japanese lawyer because if federal law and locals conflict then it is up to a judge to decide what to do and that's a really messy thing for a forum discussion. Not only that but the Japanese might work differently from here.
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Posted 12/16/17 , edited 12/16/17

mittemeyer wrote:

-snip-

But I'm not actually controlling what others are doing. I am only trying to persuade people not to do something, which is very different. For example, you are trying to persuade me to stop persuading others. Aren't you being a little inconsistent? Couldn't what you're doing be considered thought policing?

When you advocate for government protections for the rights of imaginary people you are advocating for control.


So your only problem is if there is enough evidence. If there isn't enough evidence, then you think I should be silent.

Misinterpreted me. Reread.


I am very familiar with the line of thinking and the failure to engage the critical faculties that it indicates. The term suggests coercion that is not there.

No, it doesn't. At least, not necessarily.
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Posted 12/16/17 , edited 12/16/17

XxDarkSasuxX wrote:

When you advocate for government protections for the rights of imaginary people you are advocating for control.


But that's precisely not what I'm arguing in favor of.

I said:

Making the sexualized depiction of underage people illegal could have unexpected side effects I haven't considered, and besides, I'm not altogether convinced that people's freedoms should be curtailed in this matter. What I do think is that ecchi and pornographic depictions of underage people should be discouraged.


I am not arguing in favor of any legislation, or other legal action. I am simply stating that people who have a different opinion should state it.

If you continue to associate me with a line of reasoning I have explicitly disassociated from, I will consider that reason not to respond. What you're doing is called a straw man fallacy.


Misinterpreted me. Reread.


What you said does imply what I've said--that your problem seems to be one of evidence. With evidence, you are in favor of anti-smoking campaigns, which do seek to suppress cigarette smoking.


No, it doesn't. At least, not necessarily.


The line of thinking may be indicated, but not actually present. So I don't see any fundamental disagreement between us there.

Also, by continuing to disagree with me, aren't you aiming to suppress my thought? That's all I'm doing too--expressing an opinion. How do you answer the charge of inconsistency? You didn't respond.
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Posted 12/16/17 , edited 12/17/17

lawdog wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

I'm not very concerned with drawings and their "age". Most aren't even a decade old in human years.

But the age of consent is 13 in Japan with some restrictions on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent#By_country_or_region


You need to read more.

Because although that's the actual AoC for Japan, the only places it actually applies, perhaps, are uninhabited islands...and even there the Child Welfare Act forbidding fornication with anyone under 18, would probably apply. Also, the individual prefectures all have their own laws on the subject, setting ages and also setting exceptions. including for closeness of age as well as for romantic reasons with parental consent.

The one thing that the world can agree about regarding AoC is that no one can agree about it.

In the USA, 31 states set the age at 16, 8 at 17, and 11 at 18.

In Europe:

15 nations set the AoC at 14: Albania, Andorra, Austria, Bulgaria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Estonia, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Montenegro, Portugal, San Marino, and Serbia;

12 nations set the AoC at 15: Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Greece, Iceland, Monaco, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Sweden;

20 nations set the AoC at 16: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Finland, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Moldova, Netherlands, Northern Cyprus, Norway, Russia, Spain, Switzerland, Ukraine, and United Kingdom;


2 nations set the AoC at 17: Cyprus and Ireland; and

3 nations set the AoC at 18: Malta, Turkey, and Vatican City.

The other continents have similar disparities. One thing to note: There can be other issues, so never assume that just because a law says a certain age that there might not be important strings attached.


It mildly irritates me that Michigan age of consent is 16, but the marriagable age is 18.
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Posted 12/16/17 , edited 12/17/17

cruelcore1 wrote:


So I've been enjoying the fanservice and immensely Catholic lesbian characters, and punching the doorknob to adult cartoons and fanart. But then I realized something horrible, and I don't know how to live with myself anymore.

So then Maria-sama ga Miteru. Except that anime has the longest skirts ever.

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Posted 12/16/17 , edited 12/17/17
From what I read from the last three posts, the discussion lean toward the legalization of sexualization of underage characters because imaginary characters do not need legal protection. I do not mind much about the sexualization of young girls because that pretty much expose the imperialist culture. I do not know much about the Japanese colonization, but the European imperialists force their colonized people to embrace feminine subordination as a form of control while the European colonizers embrace masculine domination over the colonized; this is how feminism intersect with imperialism. In this way, the traditional harem anime can pretty much describe the mindset of the imperialists.
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Posted 12/16/17 , edited 12/17/17

mittemeyer wrote:

I sometimes wonder if people should feel shame, and it is times like when I am reading this thread that I am inclined towards "yes."

The artwork a person consumes says something about that person, just as the artwork that is sanctioned by a society says something about that society. How do we balance concerns for freedom with social responsibility? An age of consent is something that should be respected by society, and artwork in such a society should, if it is to be considered socially responsible artwork, respect that as well, even where fictional characters are concerned. Note that I am not arguing if it should be illegal, a point on which I am undecided. However, it should be considered in poor taste, and relentlessly campaigned against. The fact that people consume such artwork without regard to its implications is the point, and if no one is being hurt directly, one might ask: what about indirectly? The very failure to observe an age of consent is precisely the problem that criminal sexual offenders who target children have.

So yes, I am arguing that a taboo should be observed, for the reason that this taboo has a social function. If people are going to somehow argue that this leads to repression and thus more sexual crime, I would like to point out that I am not arguing for the banning of pornography and sexual expressivity as such. With all the porn that is available, is there a good reason why any of it should be animated, underage porn? Even ecchi depictions of underage characters is, at the very least, in poor taste.

That said, I know better than to think I am going to convince anyone who thinks otherwise.


If I could, I would memeducationify this and make it into something that could be passed on to others to learn from. What a stance. If I could I'd stand up and applaud you right now man. I may just, fuck this library.

In sincerity, this is a stance I'd love to see argued against. I have my reservations and opinions of what I determine is right and wrong, leaning heavily on the conservative side as it relates to potential for people to abuse or take advantage of others. Yet I do make daily ritual of testing my own beliefs against those of my fellow human, and even playing the most extreme of devil's advocate I can't find good purchase against Mittemeyer. If it were up to a vote for a strong stance on this topic, he'd have mine.
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Posted 12/16/17 , edited 12/16/17


Thanks



Just so you know, you misquoted me.
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Posted 12/16/17 , edited 12/17/17
I'll make a serious post for once in a while. Pedophilia also applies to cartoon and video game characters. Don't bpther with the counter arguments, save yourself the energy trying to tell me I'm wrong, it won't change my opinion. Pretty disgusted when I see people on MAL have half naked little anime girls all over their profiles and think it's ok.
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Posted 12/17/17 , edited 12/17/17

mittemeyer wrote:


XxDarkSasuxX wrote:

When you advocate for government protections for the rights of imaginary people you are advocating for control.


But that's precisely not what I'm arguing in favor of.

I said:

Making the sexualized depiction of underage people illegal could have unexpected side effects I haven't considered, and besides, I'm not altogether convinced that people's freedoms should be curtailed in this matter. What I do think is that ecchi and pornographic depictions of underage people should be discouraged.


You also said:


The sexual harassment claims against high ranking politicians are doing something, wouldn't you say? Do we have to only pick one--jail time or social pressure?

That is about the same vibe I got from your initial post, but whatever. I don't care if you are claiming ambiguity at this point.


I am not arguing in favor of any legislation, or other legal action. I am simply stating that people who have a different opinion should state it.

-snip-

Right, well that is obvious, and I wholeheartedly agree with you.


Also, by continuing to disagree with me, aren't you aiming to suppress my thought? That's all I'm doing too--expressing an opinion. How do you answer the charge of inconsistency? You didn't respond.

I am simply using our discourse to remain current and update my view on a matter I have not touched upon in a while. If you feel as if I am attempting to suppress you with my counters, then perhaps I need to be more articulate. I typically keep my responses concise as I have found that, on this particular board, I constantly have had to reiterate on numerous occasions no matter how lengthy a post I had written. Unfortunately this means that nuance in my positions won't show unless I engage in an extended discussion. Sorry if that is leading you into a misunderstanding.
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Posted 12/18/17 , edited 12/19/17

XxDarkSasuxX wrote:


mittemeyer wrote:


XxDarkSasuxX wrote:

When you advocate for government protections for the rights of imaginary people you are advocating for control.


But that's precisely not what I'm arguing in favor of.

I said:

Making the sexualized depiction of underage people illegal could have unexpected side effects I haven't considered, and besides, I'm not altogether convinced that people's freedoms should be curtailed in this matter. What I do think is that ecchi and pornographic depictions of underage people should be discouraged.


You also said:


The sexual harassment claims against high ranking politicians are doing something, wouldn't you say? Do we have to only pick one--jail time or social pressure?

That is about the same vibe I got from your initial post, but whatever. I don't care if you are claiming ambiguity at this point.


I'm not sure what ambiguity there could be, since the quote in question is with regards to your claim that


I am fairly certain that it is the threat of jail time that prevents people from committing a crime.


I even quoted it in my reply. What I'm saying is that social pressure and jail time both contribute to the prevention of crimes. That's a direct response to what you said.


I am simply using our discourse to remain current and update my view on a matter I have not touched upon in a while. If you feel as if I am attempting to suppress you with my counters, then perhaps I need to be more articulate. I typically keep my responses concise as I have found that, on this particular board, I constantly have had to reiterate on numerous occasions no matter how lengthy a post I had written. Unfortunately this means that nuance in my positions won't show unless I engage in an extended discussion. Sorry if that is leading you into a misunderstanding.


I don't think your argument has much nuance, since you seem to be claiming that any kind of persuasive activity that seeks to divert people from a currently held opinion is something undesirable. Yet you seem to be okay with anti-smoking campaigns, which do that very thing. I don't think that is so much nuance as outright contradiction.

Tell me, when a lawyer argues a case before a jury, is he or she engaging in "thought police" behavior? He or she seeks to suppress the opinions of the opposition. The same goes for political campaigns, or advertisers that try to persuade you from buying products from competitors. Don't they fit the definition you provided?
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Posted 12/19/17 , edited 12/19/17

cruelcore1 wrote:

Warning: Tasteless sarcasm ahead, inspired by a poll over here. Proceed with dank caution.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-941897/should-people-who-create-sexual-fan-art-of-underage-anime-characters-be-punished?pg=6


So I've been enjoying the fanservice and immensely Catholic lesbian characters, and punching the doorknob to adult cartoons and fanart. But then I realized something horrible, and I don't know how to live with myself anymore.

I've just realized that most of the fanservice-related content depicts girls under the age of 18. Even non-lewd fanart often has some pervy elements!

I also realized that hentai is full of minors and sexual violence. I thought that 15yo and the ugly bastard were just pretending!!!

And I found out "loli" is NOT a synonym for "hot midget".

Obviously, the anime industry needs to attend Jale University. But what am I gonna watch then?? Netflix??

And how do I forgive myself?? I have plenty of obscene and non-obscene cartoon image files in my "Nothing Here" folder!! I wanted to erase them, but I can't! My family crowbar has a weeb virus and doesn't let me press delete on my keyboard!!

Please help...


XD omg what a predicament.

I suggest you hide that folder in the depths of you computer storage. It would be pretty akward and weird if someone found those.

But either way, what did you expect? we are talking about the country who created tentacle porn and hentai as a genre for you to watch. Japan is one of the most twisted and perverse countries when it comes to this stuff. Too many neets and shut ins with way too much time and loneliness to work with. No offense but we have to admit it.

Birth rate has dropped incredibly in this country. so much that they themselves encourage people to get married and have sex but they don't see marriage so much as an option now.
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Posted 12/19/17 , edited 12/19/17

mittemeyer wrote:

I even quoted it in my reply. What I'm saying is that social pressure and jail time both contribute to the prevention of crimes. That's a direct response to what you said.

Right, and the reason I wrote that in the first place was because I knew you had no reservations towards wasting my tax-dollars with people being jailed for looking at a cartoon you didn't like. All you had to do was counter with a simple pass, but instead you felt so inclined to note that the threat of prison and social pressure should work in tandem. Maybe in a general sense, I could and would agree with you, but since we are not talking in a general sense, I read that particular comment within the context of the thread that we are discussing it in.


I don't think your argument has much nuance,

Yes. We went over this.


since you seem to be claiming that any kind of persuasive activity that seeks to divert people from a currently held opinion is something undesirable. Yet you seem to be okay with anti-smoking campaigns, which do that very thing. I don't think that is so much nuance as outright contradiction.

-snip-

You are confused. Reread.

I am under the impression that you think you can reveal something to use towards your own agenda by making me reiterate my stance in varied scenarios. I have already said my piece, and, if you haven't gathered yet, I am not too inclined to repeat myself. Go back, and, if you find that my answer was not satisfying, go back and read again.


PS:
To save yourself the trouble, if you ask me to repeat something again, it will be snipped, and I will only reply to relevant content. I barely have enough time in the day for myself, let alone staying on top of this board, and then one-upping that to even having to repeat myself on this board multiple times.

I come here, as I have always, to learn the perspective of people in this community (of those who enjoy anime/manga) in varying topics. Not to change your mind, which is something you can't seem to grasp because you feel as if I am still attacking your argument, and replacing it with my own. Looking back, you seem to be in a tizzy because I pointed out an inconsistency in your view.

I never told you that you were wrong, I never said that "this is what I think, and this is why it is better". I simply countered a counter that you had made to another user.
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Posted 12/19/17 , edited 12/19/17
I think I say this post on another forum. I'm not sure. It's pretty much copypasta.
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