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Post Reply Transgendered Characters in Anime.
ildyko 
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Posted 12/27/17 , edited 12/28/17
my first thought!
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Posted 12/27/17 , edited 12/28/17

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

serifsansserif wrote:


StriderShinryu wrote:
I can't say they really get better treatment overall. Far too often they're treated as jokes, cliches, punchlines, etc.


Disagree.
LOTS of crossdressing characters and many of them have great qualities.


Hmmm... I'm a little ambivalent on this subject myself. However, one caveat. I'm not really concerned with cross-dressing or magical sex changes or bio-engineered gender swapping abilities. I'm looking for the treatment specifically of Trans-folk.



Disagree again. With Ouran it may only be crossdressing, but the father figure I believe explicitly wishes to be addressed as a woman, and the main character explicitly states having preference or qualms about gender. You also have role reversal where the "prince" is rescued by said female lead and has quite a bit of relevancy when talking about gender and gender roles.



I also have to say, what is the purpose of designating "trans"? Does the person legitimately want to be labeled as one gender, which they may go through certain means to be or be perceived, or do they want some sort of special status?

If for example, if you were genetically male, but perceived yourself as female, is it more important to be female, or for your status to be female and "trans"?

What is the ultimate perception you are going for?

I have no issue with former but the latter is requesting to be "unique" but "just like everyone else". Not only is it impossible but it's kind of offensive.
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Posted 12/28/17 , edited 12/28/17


BlueOni wrote:

Since you brought it up there's a lot packed into Ranma 1/2...but if you mainly want an example of a genuinely transgender character from the series I'd offer up Mint.

If one does happen to insist that Ranma 1/2 be used as a vehicle for heavier, more in-depth discussion of the personal emotional ramifications of situations like Ranma's and Mint's, however, there is fan fiction out there like that (some of it quite good).

I'll finally quickly bring up Ukyo Kuonji .


I'm less familiar with Ranma 1/2 than I'd like to be. Mint would qualify as a person living with gender dysphoria to me. I'm curious as to how it was handled now. It doesn't surprise that there is fan fiction which runs with a variety of gender identity issues as a result of Ranma 1/2.

Tomboys, or just women seeking to acquire male privilege are a thing. Especially in the 1800s and earlier. Not sure how many transmen are hidden among the woman simply seeking to escape the rules then surrounding their gender. The concept still exists. There is a manga, I've forgotten the name, about a women who plays a man online because she wants to fight and swear and be crude and not be judged.

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Gender dysphoria isn't dependent on looking like the opposite sex, but is a disorder concerning distress caused by a lack of gender-sex congruence. Mental processes, physiological neurology, and such play a role here more than merely having a feminine appearance.

Sorry if I misused terms, I am sleepy.


No you are fine and you are right. Every person with gender dysphoria has their own journey. for some it will be emulating the opposite gender (not just feminine, Transmen exist too). There is a growing body of science that suggests that trans-folk indeed have brains that are more like the other gender or neither. Not expressing your real gender and sticking with your assigned gender is not uncommon in trans-folk who are still in the closet, or just not ready to transition. I myself spent forty years trying to be a very masculine man. Often bearded, an ex-soldier proud that he had been 'Trained to drink, fuck, and fight'. I haven't entirely forgotten those experiences but I no longer feel obligated to 'try too hard' to hide my femininity.


tesseract wrote:

I think one character that everyone is guilty of overlooking is Kenjirou Hato from Genshiken Nidaime.


I'll have to look it/them up. BTW your image didn't display for some reason.


serifsansserif wrote:

Disagree again. With Ouran it may only be crossdressing, but the father figure I believe explicitly wishes to be addressed as a woman, and the main character explicitly states having preference or qualms about gender. You also have role reversal where the "prince" is rescued by said female lead and has quite a bit of relevancy when talking about gender and gender roles.



I also have to say, what is the purpose of designating "trans"? (SNIP) Not only is it impossible but it's kind of offensive.


(editing, mine. Please see full post)

Since I'm not familiar with Ouran host club, I can't comment on weather the character you mention is trans or not. But it sounds like it from what you said. I can only go by what is posted when the subject is an anime I haven't seen. (I might look up ouran host club Now. I'm curious)

Trans isn't an identity (except perhaps for some political warriors). It's a condition. It's like having diabetes. No matter where you are in your journey with Gender Dysphoria there are things you can't escape. No one is going to let Caitlyn Jenner forget she once was Bruce. Now some trans-folk manage to go 'low profile' and re-invent themselves completely and live on as if they never were the other gender. That's not true for most of us. If we keep our friends and family, they can't help remembering us as the other gender. I lived 40 years as man. It's been an adjustment the last 4 years for my loved ones. No surgery can give a transwoman a womb, nor a transmen a fully functional 'natural' penis. When dealing with medical issues there are certain realities with which we have to deal. And then there is the general public. There are some folk who recognise us only as 'tranny' and we have to deal with that too. I'm curious, I suppose in general, about how the LGBT is treated in anime. But I am trans. Just like the fact that I have diabetes and few other chronic ailments. Just like I'd like to know how often people feel obligated to test their blood sugars and which medicines help them cope. I'd like to know how people in my shoes are treated in anime. I don't understand why you should see that as contradictory.
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/30/17
In LOVELY☆COMPLEX, Seiko is a girl that "kami-sama put in the wrong body". Past her introduction everyone treats her just like the other girls. I tend to forget that she's trans most of the time. I'm not going to pretend that LOVE☆COM is particularly deep, or probes its characters psyches like Houro Musuko. It does have, however, a member of its supporting cast who is trans & not treated as an anomaly or a joke.
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/30/17
Now that I think about it, I wouldn't know how to react if Felix here was biting my ear.

It's one of those weird things in life. When I found out that Felix was a guy I was like this, but, you know, you just learn to accept it.

At least Japanese anime portrays such characters in interesting and humorous ways, whereas our works implement an agenda in order to keep something alive in the public mind.
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/30/17
I really can't say....I mean, Japan has a different view on LBGT overall than the West...though that is changing.


It's just been used as a comedy trope too often; 'LOL LOOKIT AT THE CROSS DRESSER ISNT THAT FUNNY' that I guess I really haven't thought much about it.
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/30/17

Nogara-san wrote:
I really can't say....I mean, Japan has a different view on LBGT overall than the West...though that is changing.


It's just been used as a comedy trope too often; 'LOL LOOKIT AT THE CROSS DRESSER ISNT THAT FUNNY' that I guess I really haven't thought much about it.

From what I recall from a panel at 'Detour back in 2015, Japanese people are open to things like that, but to some extent. For example, if you're in Japan and you tell someone that you're gay, they'll be like "Oh, okay." But that's it. I forget what the limit is, but I'm sure one of those limits is if the gay person pulls some identity-politics BS.

Indeed, though, there are a lot of foreign cultural things that are still new to Japan (such as kissing). Also, when we see them doing things like, say, wearing black-face during a Louis Armstrong concert, we all freak out over it and call them racist, but the truth is that they don't know better, and they're not even being hateful to begin with. I guess this is all a consequence of Japan's history, of having been isolated from the rest of the world for such a long time. It's probably something at the genetic level; who knows?
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/31/17

Gross1985 wrote:

At least Japanese anime portrays such characters in interesting and humorous ways, whereas our works implement an agenda in order to keep something alive in the public mind.


Not sure what you mean. unless it's an agenda of trans hate. (you have to mind that I haven't watched mainstream television in nearly 20 years. maybe there's been something new of which I'm unaware )


-OlE- 
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/31/17

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Not sure what you mean. unless it's an agenda of trans hate. (you have to mind that I haven't watched mainstream television in nearly 20 years. maybe there's been something new of which I'm unaware )




can't say i am a mind reader but i would hazard a guess that the poster in question is saying transgenderism is being shoved down peoples throats
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/31/17

-OlE- wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Not sure what you mean. unless it's an agenda of trans hate. (you have to mind that I haven't watched mainstream television in nearly 20 years. maybe there's been something new of which I'm unaware )




can't say i am a mind reader but i would hazard a guess that the poster in question is saying transgenderism is being shoved down peoples throats


Really now.... that's news to me. I do allright where i live but the media still makes me feel like other trans-folk are marginalised. It was just last year the the US was in paroxysms over the bathroom. And I still here people calling Caitlyn Jenner, "Bruce".


-OlE- 
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/30/17

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Really now.... that's news to me. I do allright where i live but the media still makes me feel like other trans-folk are marginalised. It was just last year the the US was in paroxysms over the bathroom. And I still here people calling Caitlyn Jenner, "Bruce".




I could be misjudging what the other poster meant here, i cant speak for him obviously. I don't really watch much "traditional media" either but from what i gather there is a greater deal of representation for more marginalized groups (be that ethnic or in this case LGBT) which some seem to see as constituting being forced down their throat.
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/31/17

-OlE- wrote:
i gather there is a greater deal of representation for more marginalized groups (be that ethnic or in this case LGBT) which some seem to see as constituting being forced down their throat.


Ah like all the haters of "The Last Jedi" got it.

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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/30/17

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


-OlE- wrote:
i gather there is a greater deal of representation for more marginalized groups (be that ethnic or in this case LGBT) which some seem to see as constituting being forced down their throat.


Ah like all the haters of "The Last Jedi" got it.



Last Jedi wasn't an agenda film, and it didn't get that much hate.

It was more of the Ghostbusters movie, the shit people tried to claim about mad max, the "girls only" viewings of wonder woman cause "feminism", and so on...

It's like how everyone threw a shit-fit about the GITS movie for having a white woman and being 'SOOOOOOOOOOOOO BAAAAAAD" without really knowing anything about source material. (for the record, GITS WAS shit. but it was shit for reasons well beyond the actress... Much for the same reasons ghostbusters was shit... In fact, almost exactly the same reasons, but ya know, both sides like to pick and choose on what they wish to support or not, and most people are sheep anyhow...)

The anti-trans stuff you see isn't because there's an actual anti-trans agenda. It's because 1. it affects you directly, and therefore you perceive it more, 2. people are really tired of being policed 24/7 about what they say think or do. So they swing the opposite direction....

If people left trans out of their socially motivated BS, the majority of people wouldn't have much of a care or concern.

It's like gay rights: Normally, 80% of people give zero fucks about who marries who, with probably only about 10% having strong opinions either for or against. Because people have raised a fuss, everyone's suddenly an expert on the mechanics of gay marriage and its history in the developed world, and has an opinion backed up with "facts" to convince you why they're right and the other people are wrong...





And beyond that, again, what do you want? Do you want trans people to be "special" or do you want to be like everyone else?

The part that pisses people off is when you want special treatment because you're "different" and you don't want to accept that as a consequence of standing out and doing your own thing that that's going to piss people off. It's alsogoing to cause people to champion your cause not because they believe you're the same but because they want to latch on to your "uniqueness" without having to deal with the consequences. You essentially are someone's accessory in that case.

Getting rid of your own lingo, like calling people "trans-bois" would be a good start to being treated like your average jane or joe and being accepted as just people.

And, no, I'm sorry, you can't be treated like everyone else and be "special" when it suits you. It just doesn't work that way.
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/30/17

serifsansserif wrote:

If people left trans out of their socially motivated BS, the majority of people wouldn't have much of a care or concern.

It's like gay rights: Normally, 80% of people give zero fucks about who marries who, with probably only about 10% having strong opinions either for or against. Because people have raised a fuss, everyone's suddenly an expert on the mechanics of gay marriage and its history in the developed world, and has an opinion backed up with "facts" to convince you why they're right and the other people are wrong...


beg to differ. If people didn't push for their rights they'd have none. Being gay was still a crime when I was born. Being trans was also thrown under the homophobia bus. It took a riot to start the ball rolling the other way. I disagree that pushback wouldn't happen if people just quiet and obedient.

Also what was wrong with ghostbusters. It wasn't the original but then, what could be, not even the sequel managed that. New Ghostbusters movie might be a classic but it was damn funny and worth the price of admission. for that matter, While there were some painfully wrong things in the GitS live action. Treating it as a solo peice... I quite liked it.

EDIT:

serifsansserif wrote:

The anti-trans stuff you see isn't because there's an actual anti-trans agenda. It's because 1. it affects you directly, and therefore you perceive it more, 2. people are really tired of being policed 24/7 about what they say think or do. So they swing the opposite direction.....


1) So because I live it. It isn't real? Next you're going to tell someone black that there's no racial discrimination right?

2) Bullshit. That's the same "It's all the SJWs' Fault" excuse that everyone brings out to justify their shitty attitudes.

Further Edit:

Sorry but I just DON'T accept the "it would all be okay if you weren't so noisy about it" argument AT ALL.

I'm not political about my trans-state. It's just a fact of life. All I do that is remotely political about the trans subject is exist. But there are people in this world who take an exception to my existence as a woman. and they do it not just to me but in the media, on facebook, etc.
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Posted 12/30/17 , edited 12/31/17

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:

If people left trans out of their socially motivated BS, the majority of people wouldn't have much of a care or concern.

It's like gay rights: Normally, 80% of people give zero fucks about who marries who, with probably only about 10% having strong opinions either for or against. Because people have raised a fuss, everyone's suddenly an expert on the mechanics of gay marriage and its history in the developed world, and has an opinion backed up with "facts" to convince you why they're right and the other people are wrong...


beg to differ. If people didn't push for their rights they'd have none. Being gay was still a crime when I was born. Being trans was also thrown under the homophobia bus. It took a riot to start the ball rolling the other way. I disagree that pushback wouldn't happen if people just quiet and obedient.

Also what was wrong with ghostbusters. It wasn't the original but then, what could be, not even the sequel managed that. New Ghostbusters movie might be a classic but it was damn funny and worth the price of admission. for that matter, While there were some painfully wrong things in the GitS live action. Treating it as a solo peice... I quite liked it.




Ehh... I edited my stuff above.

But beyond that, yeah, there's a time to speak out and a time to not. The difference is when you're so focused on the differences you completely lose sight of the fact that you're trying to be accepted and to do that you need to show people that you're not any different.

Gay people aren't hedonistic disease carrying pedophiles as believed before.(and even then... You look back on it, there was a lot less stigmatism than it is sometimes portrayed. It was more tolerated and just not talked about...) A lot of that comes from showing that gay couples have long term relationships just like everyone else. They want to raise normal families, just like everyone else... We went from that shitty gay eye show to "oh yeah. Sulu and Doogie Howser are gay... and they have wonderful families and are great actors".

What is your agenda?
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