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Flaws Behind Physics
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24 / M
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Posted 7/15/07 , edited 7/15/07
To be honest I feel the science and religion are two sides of the same thing. Both are just ways to explain things. However, lately there have been a lot of threads pointing out paradoxes in religion. Things that discuss why religion is crap, religious people are cowardly, ext. Honestly I think most of the people who comment in those don’t know what they are talking about. I’d be surprised if one of them has ever even picked up a book on physics in their life.

Anyway this thread is meant to be a balancing act. Balance is the key, after all. It is also something that will hopefully be educational. Education is the only remedy for the plague of ignorance that blights us, after all.

Now I’d like to start by pointing out that people should be open minded. Loyal to your beliefs, but open minded none the less. I don’t think its fair how people bash religious characters as being narrow minded for their refusal to accept scientific evidence. But, this being said, it goes both ways. As I’ve said many-a-times before, people ignore evidence of something divine everyday. We just don’t make such a big deal out of it.

Anyway, the point is to draw attention to flaws in scientific theories. Particularly physics, which is the mother of all science. The secular equivalent of religion. (Like the paradox of that?) Well, anyway, most atheists do have beliefs that can be considered religious so…

Well, here’s what I’ll draw attention to. Math is treated as a perfect structure. Science has a voice that speaks dictums of law. Anybody who does not believe something proven by math or proclaimed by science they are ignorant and narrow minded. So, what happens when the two clash?

An electron, for example, has been mathematically proven to spin around twice before it presents the same face. This contradicts science, logic, geometry, and even common sense. This being said it’s not a matter of math needing time to evolve this time. Contrary, this right here is a –fact- which suggests our method of understanding needs a complete renovation.

My point in this is to educate and also to proclaim something. People point out paradoxes to the concepts of religion, quite notably omnipotence. With their cliché questions and inquiries that have been answered time and again but remain enigmas wrapped in mystery they claim to prove there is no religion. However this is using logic, which is now mathematically and scientifically proven to be unreliable.

Now, again, I believe science and religion complement one-another. Take the concept of creation, for example. We have found proof that there was a sudden creation of existence. (Lingering heat waves and various other proofs of the Big-Bang, not necessarily God.) We’ve also shown that if the universe had always existed it would have fallen into itself. The Second Law of Thermodynamics explains this. Every action, change, movement, anything whatsoever causes the universe to steadily decline into chaos. Eventually everything would be worn away. This shows that in order for an old existence to maintain itself there must be something outside its system. A second system in which to give off energy to pay for the creation and destruction of matter in the first system. Simply put, something supper-natural, maybe even divine. That’s my opinion. It’s based on facts and theories, but there is no way to prove God does or does not exist.

This being said, have fun with the thread. Try and learn something. Please don’t make comments about this post being too long, or how you don’t understand. Try and contribute to the thread with your posts please. Don’t waste posting space. Please. I’d be much obliged. Hopefully we can benefit the participators by renewing their minds or at least revealing a bit of reality to them. Education of science and religion, case and point.
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Posted 7/15/07
I agree totally with what you said. I'v just never been able to explain it as well as you have. Thank you.
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Posted 7/15/07
You’re welcome? Well I’ve argued this here on CR many-a-times before. In one thread I have more than twenty pages of argument. I just can’t remember what thread. It’s very old.
Posted 7/15/07
Uh, i'm too lazy too worry about physics and religion or midgets but I do agree with you
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Posted 7/15/07
Hmm... Well, you both have good opinions if you agree with me!
Posted 7/15/07
In some cases, people just deny the actual evidences because they really believe/love the things they considered important. Whether it's bad or good, some people truly believe and protect the things they care about.

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Posted 7/15/07
Yes, that’s very true, and people should stand up for what they think is right, even if they are standing alone. However, being narrow minded and loyal are two different things. I’m very loyal to my religion, but I take evidence for what it is. In fact I used to be an atheist and I only converted to Christianity based on logic and personal experiences.

All this being said I think it’s ignorant to attack other people’s belief systems just because your getting defensive sense theirs contradicts yours.
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Posted 7/15/07
Are you really only 16? because I don't oftan meet people that are smart at that age. You like one of my friends
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Yes, I am really 16. However, I’m not smart. I’m just educated. I actually study something before I spew off. I also pray to God to help me present my arguments and to give me the gift of eloquence most of the time. (Like before this thread.) He typically says yes. That’s my belief, and I’ll probably bee flamed for it, but I believe that I look smart because God is using me. Who knows, I’m not trying to jam my religion down peoples throats, and that’s not what this thread is about. So maybe I’m just naturally eloquent. I don’t believe so though. Call it divine intervention or psychology, but whenever I pray for something I do better in it.
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Posted 7/15/07
It's basically the same thing you've been saying before - the absence of a logical answer being conclusive proof for a supernatural one.

You're holding up science as though it masquerades as religion and holding it to the same standard. The difference is the presence of an absolute claim. Science claims to be the best (though not perfect) understanding we have of the natural observable world based on our current understanding and limitations, fully open to revision as more is learned - hardly absolute. Contradictions to understood science are hardly earth shattering, it just means it's time to reevaluate our theories.

Religion on the other hand does make absolute claims and is not open to revision (well, depending on how literally you take it that is). Religion does claim to be an infallible thing, so a flaw found in religion tends to be more critical than a flaw found in science.

Basically, we can have a theory of gravity or relativity, but we can't have a theory of christianity or islam.

You reference supernatural occurrences. What were they? What references can you provide? What verification can you give that they actually occurred? As we like to say here in Indiana, "that and 50 cents will get you a pepsi."

Personally, I'd love to believe in relgion and/or the supernatural, and there is little more I'd love to see more than something supernatural. I spent years researching things of that nature. But I never saw or experienced anything I could conclusively say was supernatural.
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Posted 7/15/07

azrael910 wrote:

It's basically the same thing you've been saying before - the absence of a logical answer being conclusive proof for a supernatural one.

You're holding up science as though it masquerades as religion and holding it to the same standard. The difference is the presence of an absolute claim. Science claims to be the best (though not perfect) understanding we have of the natural observable world based on our current understanding and limitations, fully open to revision as more is learned - hardly absolute. Contradictions to understood science are hardly earth shattering, it just means it's time to reevaluate our theories.

Religion on the other hand does make absolute claims and is not open to revision (well, depending on how literally you take it that is). Religion does claim to be an infallible thing, so a flaw found in religion tends to be more critical than a flaw found in science.

Basically, we can have a theory of gravity or relativity, but we can't have a theory of christianity or islam.

You reference supernatural occurrences. What were they? What references can you provide? What verification can you give that they actually occurred? As we like to say here in Indiana, "that and 50 cents will get you a pepsi."

Personally, I'd love to believe in relgion and/or the supernatural, and there is little more I'd love to see more than something supernatural. I spent years researching things of that nature. But I never saw or experienced anything I could conclusively say was supernatural.


You don't look for it. If finds you. The meaning of life can and will be shown to you in due time.
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Posted 7/15/07

djzabou wrote:


You don't look for it. If finds you. The meaning of life can and will be shown to you in due time.


This is the kind of horse shit that pisses me off. I'm not even going to dignify this schlock with a response.
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26 / M / Home of SeaBiscuit
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Posted 7/15/07
I really don't see the point in dragging religion into this.

There will always be flaws to physics. Once we have perfected it (to the best of our knowledge), then its a law.

The example you gave has to deal with electrons which as of now, isn't something we know 100% on. The different models through the ages from the plum pudding to Bohr's (Jimmy Neutron! woooo) to Quantum models are just building blocks in hoping to fully understand subatomic particles.

Again, I'm not touching the religious part in your post cause we are all stubborn to a certain degree and will refuse to see or disbelieve the other.
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Posted 7/15/07

SeraphAlford wrote:

Yes, I am really 16. However, I’m not smart. I’m just educated. I actually study something before I spew off. I also pray to God to help me present my arguments and to give me the gift of eloquence most of the time. (Like before this thread.) He typically says yes. That’s my belief, and I’ll probably bee flamed for it, but I believe that I look smart because God is using me. Who knows, I’m not trying to jam my religion down peoples throats, and that’s not what this thread is about. So maybe I’m just naturally eloquent. I don’t believe so though. Call it divine intervention or psychology, but whenever I pray for something I do better in it.


True, I agree with you there. Ask for God's help, and he'll give it to you. it's funny how scientists deny the great flood ever happened.for example they even found seashells that were on the summit of huge mountains.
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Posted 7/15/07
No, that’s not what I am saying. You’re completely misunderstanding me. What I am saying is that there –is- a logical answer but that there is only one logical answer and that is something divine or supper-natural. In this case probably the former, but possibly the latter.

Actually in the minds of most individuals science is a perfect thing. It is this way because that’s how scientists treat it, because it does pretend to be perfect. Sure it’s not set in stone. It changes and evolves. But as it does so it proclaims things as fact. Take Darwinism, for example. (This is getting redundant, I know.) Darwinism was called fact in its time, just as religion is called fact. However the details of it have slowly been modified and changed so that the theory does not reflects its original self perfectly.

Also, you’re stereotyping all religion. There are plenty of religions that don’t proclaim themselves entire. I have a friend who is a Witch and worships spirits. She says these spirits tell her she can worship whatever God she likes too. Buddhism is a better example. They believe in reincarnation but can also believe in God. Scientology, which is more of a cult then a religion to me, is also compatible with other religions.

What you’re neglecting is the fact that the word creation has many meanings. It can mean the combination of already existing components to make something new, or on the flip side it can be the placement of existence where every fiber from matter to energy to time (which is in a form of energy, technically) was spawned.

With all this in note I’m not arguing religion against science. There is already a thread for that. I am simply pointing out the flaws of science and that science is not perfect as many people believe because of the bullyragging of religious individuals by scientists and antireligious characters.

As far as my personal experiences you don’t need to put any value in them. They’re personal so I don’t feel in anyway obliged to share them. Cast them aside, I don’t care. Believe I’m lying, I know the truth. But whatever the case they are –irrelevant-. I don’t have any sources for them, I don’t need them. I’m not here trying to convert anyone right now. I only try things like that on people who are willing and want to be converted. Otherwise it’s just shoving your religious beliefs down other peoples throats which is counter productive anyway.

Still, I would like people to realize that just because you can point out ‘flaws’ to a religion doesn’t mean its not true. Because you can do the same thing to science and even math. That electron thing was only an example. There are countless other contradictions in science of itself and of math. Math is, however, supposed to be perfect. (In a way I suppose it is.) So science is not an omniscient entity after-all.


keelo wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

Yes, I am really 16. However, I’m not smart. I’m just educated. I actually study something before I spew off. I also pray to God to help me present my arguments and to give me the gift of eloquence most of the time. (Like before this thread.) He typically says yes. That’s my belief, and I’ll probably bee flamed for it, but I believe that I look smart because God is using me. Who knows, I’m not trying to jam my religion down peoples throats, and that’s not what this thread is about. So maybe I’m just naturally eloquent. I don’t believe so though. Call it divine intervention or psychology, but whenever I pray for something I do better in it.


True, I agree with you there. Ask for God's help, and he'll give it to you. it's funny how scientists deny the great flood ever happened.for example they even found seashells that were on the summit of huge mountains.


Most scientists actually do believe there was a great flood. But they have the same attitude to it as historians do to Jesus Christ. They say the biblical account is a fabrication and they disagree with the details. Historians know Jesus Christ was a real person, but was he the Son of God? In fact there are many scientists that believe that Jesus even healed people and all these things, but they think there is a logical explanation.

Still, there is a great deal of evidence to show that there was a great flood, but no proof.

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