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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago

auroraloose wrote:he grew a blue mass on his chest
no one except Gobro and Zero Two know about that

actually this is another interesting pattern
Gobro learns that Hiro is hurt and about blue overgrowth but respects Hiro's judgement to hide his condition and replace it with cheerful front and his determination to risk the ride anyway because they need all help they can get
it does not mean he abandon Hiro completely he is still concerned about him and finds sensible compromise: minimize involvement of strelizia

Mitsuru knows about Kokoro's book and tell her right away that this issue is not his business it's is her own responsibility and judgement (i think this is turning point where he unknowingly won her) if she doesn't bring this topic herself he will remain silent about it
so concept of free will and respect isn't alien for parasites

auroraloose wrote:details of the conversation Ichigo overheard
details of technobabble she does not understand at all and vague rumors from guy she knows nothing about that's the basis of her judgement and accusations

even lowlife like 015 understands that this BS would not fly under normal circumstances so she kept her mouth shut and instead waited for opportunity when she can replace credibility and sense with heated shouting

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Posted 8 days ago

borderliner wrote:
With Goro being so great at judging character, don't you find yourself wondering why he's in love with Ichigo?


I refer you back to my point about how Goro spends the better part of every day staring at the back end of Ichigo's business. >.>



auroraloose wrote:
Do we know this? When Hiro first started piloting with Zero Two, he grew a blue mass on his chest and almost died; that's a bit different from turning into a Zero Two. I imagine that is what Ichigo thinks is happening to him, and that no longer being considered human isn't so acceptable of an outcome. We don't even know what's going on with Zero Two or Hiro - just that "saurification" is a thing. I don't remember the details of the conversation Ichigo overheard, but I don't think it revealed as much as you're saying it did here.


Only Goro ever saw the blue mass on Hiro's chest.

It did reveal as much as I'm saying. What she overheard actually began with how it was affecting Zero Two and ended with the line about Hiro no longer being considered human. Ichigo overhears:

Hachi: Detailed testing has shown that Code 002's saurification has accelerated since they became partners. Code 016's numbers are close to the upper limit, too. If this keeps up he might undergo a genetic transformation.

Ichigo knows they're both being affected by saurification as a result of each other. She knows Zero Two is the worse off. She without question knows that Zero Two's driving goal is to kill klaxosaurs in order to become human and that it's her fading humanity / accelerated saurification that is upsetting her so much. She doesn't share this information with the squad before or after the Stampede incident. She tries to confront Zero Two but is afraid of her and fails. She also fails to bring up any of her concerns to her commanding officers before they're deployed again the following day which leads to the Stampede incident.

So again, she sucks as a leader. She had all of the information she based her accusations on prior to the Stampede incident. She knew exactly what the heart of Zero Two's problem was ( in fact you could say she knew better than even Hiro himself did ). She was unable to confront Zero Two and did nothing to try and prevent another deployment. If anything you could say her tirade at Zero Two after the Stampede incident is partially driven by guilt.


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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago


I don't remember - did none of them besides Goro know he was in bad shape back then?

I think I do agree that, to the extent that Ichigo actually is a leader - and not just designated as such by the adults to maintain their game - had she been a good leader she wouldn't have let herself become so emotionally compromised, and she would have sought out a lot more information as to what was going on. But independent of the standards we should apply to a leader, I just have trouble imagining that it was unreasonable for Ichigo to assume, given what she knew, that piloting with Zero Two any further would kill Hiro. And I can totally see a friend acting like that.

Of course, I care far less about justifying what Ichigo did than I do making it at least understandable. I think it's bad to wish pain on people, real or fictional. Unless it's Yueh.

Oh - uh, it turns out I didn't notice your response to my second comment a few days ago. For some reason I don't get notifications when you quote me, so it's easy for me to lose you in the sea of comments. Probably a thousand people have already made this point in myriad other conversations, but I thought the reason they all went along with keeping Zero Two from Hiro was that she tried to choke him to death, not that he'd saurify or whatever just by being near her. Even if they didn't know what ended up happening in there, it is again hard for me to find what Ichigo did unreasonable. I think I do end up where you do, though: while I have a more favorable view of Ichigo overall, it's that she threw herself at him at the end of the episode that cements that she's in the wrong - and colors all her previous choices as flawed as well.
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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago

runec wrote:


borderliner wrote:
With Goro being so great at judging character, don't you find yourself wondering why he's in love with Ichigo?


I refer you back to my point about how Goro spends the better part of every day staring at the back end of Ichigo's business. >.>



auroraloose wrote:
Do we know this? When Hiro first started piloting with Zero Two, he grew a blue mass on his chest and almost died; that's a bit different from turning into a Zero Two. I imagine that is what Ichigo thinks is happening to him, and that no longer being considered human isn't so acceptable of an outcome. We don't even know what's going on with Zero Two or Hiro - just that "saurification" is a thing. I don't remember the details of the conversation Ichigo overheard, but I don't think it revealed as much as you're saying it did here.


Only Goro ever saw the blue mass on Hiro's chest.

It did reveal as much as I'm saying. What she overheard actually began with how it was affecting Zero Two and ended with the line about Hiro no longer being considered human. Ichigo overhears:

Hachi: Detailed testing has shown that Code 002's saurification has accelerated since they became partners. Code 016's numbers are close to the upper limit, too. If this keeps up he might undergo a genetic transformation.

Ichigo knows they're both being affected by saurification as a result of each other. She knows Zero Two is the worse off. She without question knows that Zero Two's driving goal is to kill klaxosaurs in order to become human and that it's her fading humanity / accelerated saurification that is upsetting her so much. She doesn't share this information with the squad before or after the Stampede incident. She tries to confront Zero Two but is afraid of her and fails. She also fails to bring up any of her concerns to her commanding officers before they're deployed again the following day which leads to the Stampede incident.

So again, she sucks as a leader. She had all of the information she based her accusations on prior to the Stampede incident. She knew exactly what the heart of Zero Two's problem was ( in fact you could say she knew better than even Hiro himself did ). She was unable to confront Zero Two and did nothing to try and prevent another deployment. If anything you could say her tirade at Zero Two after the Stampede incident is partially driven by guilt.




True, but then again we are talking about child soldiers here who probably have never had the chance to truly develop leadership qualities. It's hard for me to be mad at her. Hell, if anything, her intentions are probably pure.

Ichigo overhears that conversation but does she truly understand it?

I think the series is doing a good job at displaying the main characters with the same level of confusion that the audience has. If anything they are more so in the dark about the situation. Ichigo's reaction, while (perhaps) somewhat selfish, can also be seen as great leadership in retrospect. Her perspective: A leader of a unit of soldiers and a leader who also fell in love with one of them early on in development. Part of her squad isn't compatible in that it is slowly destroying itself by existing (the part she is interested in) so she gets scared and she does her part to break it apart. Is there an element of selfishness? Sure. The actions of children are usually selfish. But, she acts in a way that is both tragic and probably... Necessary.

I doubt that even if she tried she could keep those two apart. But on some subjective level she is also saving the squad from something she doesn't understand.


auroraloose wrote:
I think it's bad to wish pain on people, real or fictional. Unless it's Yueh.


Lol!
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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago
So they all think that nothing was done to them during the exam . . . They're clueless because they were all sleeping.

I also believe they did something to Zero 2 during these Exams that wasn't shown - She was pretty adamant about not taking it.





AG -YBC Injection Futoshi got during the "Routine Exams"



Never realized before that Zero 2's original color was at the side of her eyes either! (this when she got shot)

Her teeth are also somewhat normal looking - When she was younger they were more piranha like.



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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago
I've seen a lot of hatred towards Ichigo for what happened in the most recent episode, but much of that hatred seems misplaced.

The facts are as follows:

Ichigo is in love with Hiro. Ichigo's health has been drastically negatively impacted by being about Zero Two in the past, and could potentially threaten his life. Not to mention, Zero Two "just tried" to kill Hiro by absorbing his life-force or something.

These are all "good" reasons to want Zero Two to leave, regardless of Hiro's thoughts on the matter.

On the more selfish side, she's in love, and the only way her love could ever be returned is if Zero Two is not around. Call that unrealistic if you want, or selfish, but it's at least understandable.

I don't really get where the hatred comes from, honestly, if you have even a tiny bit of empathy for the characters involved.

---

Ichigo can't know about Hiro's and Zero Two's past together, or why Hiro feels so strongly the way that he does. She also can't possibly know that Zero Two legitimately cares about Hiro, considering she just tried to murder him, has killed countless past partners, and in the very same episode that just occurred went on a rampage and beat up her entire squad for "no reason" at all. Even after they had let her see Hiro, despite their concerns about her being around him.

I love Zero Two as much the next person. I find her to be an excellent character, and I hope that things ultimately work out for her. But she is flawed, "monstrous" in many ways, and Ichigo and others wanting to keep a monster that could bring them harm away from them seems perfectly reasonable. Even Hiro himself had to call her monstrous after what she has done, and the guy is in love with her!

---

All that aside, I'm liking where the series is going. The way I see it, the first half of the series was for character development, leaving the second half (hopefully) for the more intricate plot. So far, it seems to be delivering on this promise, and I am looking forward to the rest.
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Posted 8 days ago
Somebody asked Trigger staff what episode we should look forward to and if anything will be better than episode 13. They said episode 15.

Episode is Ichigo's code number. Not sure if next episode will be massive troll or the greatest thing ever.
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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago

runec wrote:

borderliner wrote:
With Goro being so great at judging character, don't you find yourself wondering why he's in love with Ichigo?

I refer you back to my point about how Goro spends the better part of every day staring at the back end of Ichigo's business. >.>


Yeah, that's funny, but it's not true or relevant is it?

You appeal to Goro's judgement where it suits you and ignore it where it doesn't.

You lambaste Ichigo's lack of communication but are fine that even when challenged directly Zero Two's response tells no-one anything about what she and Hiro just went through but instead implies that she can just continue doing what she's doing to him. Hiro could have spoken up right after he asks where's Zero Two, why doesn't he, why is that all Ichigo's doing?

Even after that when Hiro reaches out to Mitsuru and we get the closest to an opportunity to talk about what happened Mitsuru closes that down and yet there is barely a comment made in the forum. And if the squad has misgivings why is Mitsuru's private comment to Hiro to heed Ichigo's advice.

No one defending Ichigo is denying her many flaws, but she's a child leading a squad of children under circumstances where they could die any day. All the circumstantial evidence is that she's doing a good job but despite all the moaning about the show being so on the nose about everything any subtle or implied evidence is ignored.

What makes me sad is that you seem to be on the side of the haters just for the ride.
I expect humour (see above) and insight from your posts but they're currently mostly vitriol.
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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago

auroraloose wrote:she tried to choke him to death
yes she attempted to kill him

what 015 does?
first: she already passed judgement and have an answer — Zero Two is guilty and should be denied any form of communication with Hiro and thrown out, immediately (btw Hiro is still unconscious at this point his part of the story is… unnecessary? )
second: she does not ask a single question (direct result of p1) and on top of that does everything in her power to bury any questions asked under endless flow of blame and accusations (quality of which is questionable)

so there is no problem here? funny part is that i also do not see what is problem here
because 015 destroying basic rules


borderliner wrote:Hiro could have spoken up right after he asks where Zero Two, why doesn't he
he immediately presented with answer that she isn't allowed to come and he does not know whole situation
and then 015 nudges them to leave without informing him or questioning him subtle so subtle tsktsk
with each second passing she risking to let him talk and derail her hype-train tsktsk so they must leave

and "isn't allowed to come" is not whole truth Hiro might understand it as temporary he isn't told that 015 are going to throw her away permanently another "subtle" move by 015

on question why he didn't talk about his past with Zero Two? it is unknown if he figured out that missing memory wasn't an accident and was erased but he is right to be wary of authorities and keep his mouth shut (same for Zero Two)
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Posted 8 days ago

flightform wrote:


auroraloose wrote:she tried to choke him to death
yes she attempted to kill him

what 015 does?
first: she already passed judgement and have an answer — Zero Two is guilty and should be denied any form of communication with Hiro and thrown out, immediately (btw Hiro is still unconscious at this point his part of the story is… unnecessary? )
second: she does not ask a single question (direct result of p1) and on top of that does everything in her power to bury any questions asked under endless flow of blame and accusations (quality of which is questionable)

so there is no problem here? funny part is that i also do not see what is problem here
because 015 destroying basic rules


Go back and watch Ep 12 there are so many clues there as to what led Zero 2 to do what she did and it had absolutely nothing to do with Ichigo.

Ask yourself: WHY WAS ZERO 2 CHOKING HIRO? - It's right there in that episode.

Yes Ichigo used the events that transpired afterwards for her own jealous / selfish purposes.
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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago

Artissin wrote:

Go back and watch Ep 12 there are so many clues there as to what led Zero 2 to do what she did and it had absolutely nothing to do with Ichigo.

Ask yourself: WHY WAS ZERO 2 CHOKING HIRO? - It's right there in that episode.

Yes Ichigo used the events that transpired afterwards for her own jealous / selfish purposes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWCoXcrkBOo

\m/
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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago

auroraloose wrote:



I don't remember - did none of them besides Goro know he was in bad shape back then?

I think I do agree that, to the extent that Ichigo actually is a leader - and not just designated as such by the adults to maintain their game - had she been a good leader she wouldn't have let herself become so emotionally compromised, and she would have sought out a lot more information as to what was going on. But independent of the standards we should apply to a leader, I just have trouble imagining that it was unreasonable for Ichigo to assume, given what she knew, that piloting with Zero Two any further would kill Hiro. And I can totally see a friend acting like that.

Of course, I care far less about justifying what Ichigo did than I do making it at least understandable. I think it's bad to wish pain on people, real or fictional. Unless it's Yueh.

Oh - uh, it turns out I didn't notice your response to my second comment a few days ago. For some reason I don't get notifications when you quote me, so it's easy for me to lose you in the sea of comments. Probably a thousand people have already made this point in myriad other conversations, but I thought the reason they all went along with keeping Zero Two from Hiro was that she tried to choke him to death, not that he'd saurify or whatever just by being near her. Even if they didn't know what ended up happening in there, it is again hard for me to find what Ichigo did unreasonable. I think I do end up where you do, though: while I have a more favorable view of Ichigo overall, it's that she threw herself at him at the end of the episode that cements that she's in the wrong - and colors all her previous choices as flawed as well.


I agree. Aside for the inappropriateness of confessing her feelings to Hiro at the end of the episode, I simply don't get all the hate some people have conjured for what is essentially harmless, slightly over protective, adolescent girl trying to be a good leader and protect her comrades. If anything her actions as squad leader have been exceedingly lenient towards Zero Two rather than overly strict.

We aren't talking about social interactions between a group of friends in the civilian world here, but rather the dynamic between a commanding officer and her subordinates in a military squad. There are many modern day millitaries where what Zero Two did would be grounds for execution rather than a slap on the wrist and just being reassigned to a new squad.

Ichigo's only real sin is expressing her inappropriate feelings towards Hiro and arguably not trying to get Zero Two ejected from the squad sooner. She basically allowed her affection for Hiro to cloud her judgement into casting a blind eye towards the threat posed by Zero Two when she first joined the squad because she was the only person that could pilot with Hiro and thus the only way to keep Hiro from getting culled. Still, you can't really fault the girl for wanting to keep her teammate alive and she didn't understand the full scope of how dangerous Zero Two really was at the time. After that threat became more evident she did eventually take action which ironically is what people are mad at her about.



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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago
OK, now that we've finally come to the conclusion that the person that actually caused all this and is deserving of hate is Hiro, let's speak of the future.

Person in danger of "pruning": Futoshi! Ikuno and Goro now can make a super-mindmeld team of unrequited Ichigo love. Hopefully, they'll have another squad shuffle soon.
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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago

MeltingSky wrote:casting a blind eye towards the threat posed by Zero Two
aaannndd the pattern repeats

ppl who defend 015 keep omitting one "small" fact about Zero Two and strelizia
fascinating

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Posted 8 days ago , edited 8 days ago
Does anyone know about the suddenn downgrade in animation ? Am I th only one to notice it ? It still is better than average mind you, but when you've been watching 10 ep of outstanding moovie-like animation it hurts (ep 7 was incredible to my eyes).

I know the branch of A-1 working with trigger on DItFis also doing Persona 5 this season, what could explain this downgrade. But they were also working on an other anime (Slow Start) when DItF launched [even though Persona5 is more work no doubt]; so I'm not convinced.
It's also possible it is just a phase and it'll come back just like before by the end (I hope so).

The last ep was no disappointment by the way





Not that way Zinedine, not after all you did.
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