First  Prev  1  2  3  4  Next  Last
Post Reply "it's cliche"
21371 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
36 / M / SoFlo
Online
Posted 2/8/18 , edited 2/8/18
What else would I call the beach/pool episode that appears in every rom/com anime?
12016 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
22 / M / USA
Offline
Posted 2/8/18 , edited 2/8/18

Cardamom_Ginger wrote:

Really? I've found that most people use "cliché" correctly. Anyway, there's little sense in getting wrapped up in someone else's take on any given series. If a person thinks a series is too damned predictable, then they do. If you don't, you don't. No one is owed any sort of validation.


I've never resonated with a post in the CR forums as much as this one. Naisu
41670 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
39 / M / UK
Offline
Posted 2/8/18 , edited 2/8/18
Whilst I'd agree with Goten that some series are so bad that they aren't worth the effort to criticise constructively, in general the "it's cliche" bugs me as just being lazy.
36497 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
22 / M
Online
Posted 2/8/18 , edited 2/8/18
What’s really funny is that “cliche” and “classic” literally mean the exact same thing. Just one has positive connotations and the others negative because most people are idiots.


mutronbiphase wrote:

Anime and most other things tend to be very formulaic. artists tend to copy their favorite shit, sometimes almost exactly. then you have execs and stuff who are buying what's going to sell, which is what has already sold, ad infinitum.

that's what we mean by cliche. i want to see more shit like psycho pass and less shit like OMG I TRIPPED AND FELL INTO HER BOOBS


You’re one of those people who doesn’t even use it correctly.

Psycho-Pass has already been done multiple times before. Even by the same author.


Schmukk wrote:

Yeah honestly I don't get why people care whether or not it's a cliche or if it's a trope. IMO, people should really be weighing these series upon whether or not they do the cliches/tropes well or not rather than if they use them at all.


You sir deserve a medal. I still await the day someone actually points out one of the times there has been a well-executed “cliche/trope”. But sadly so many people still misunderstand what constitutes as objectively good writing.

12866 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
39 / M / SW Ontario, Canada
Online
Posted 2/8/18 , edited 2/9/18

Frenzify wrote:

It's legit one of the laziest forms of criticism. If someone says something along the lines of "I don't like this because it's cliché," and they add nothing more to that, they're a lousy critic. If you could explain why something being cliché is bad, then great. But being cliché isn't inherently wrong. Clichés and tropes exist for a reason. And with tropes especially, unless you're a creative God, it's now nigh impossible to create a story without using at least a few. The issue isn't using them, but rather how you use them.


This pretty much covers my perspective.

Cliches and tropes (or, more often, an over reliance on them) CAN be a negative of something but if you just throw out "It's cliche" or "it's a trope" then that's just lazy and it doesn't really speak to what your actual criticism is. It's like saying you don't like oranges because they're orange. Maybe you have a crippling fear of the colour orange that legitimately prevents you from eating them, or maybe you actually just don't like the flavour, but just saying something obvious but completely non-specific like "they're orange" doesn't actually mean anything.

If a series is too reliant on obvious cliches and known tropes to the point where it's a basically just a predictable and pale imitation of something better then say that. If a series uses cliches and tropes to sidestep the hard work of actually developing their characters or telling a coherent story then say that. Don't just say "it's cliche" or "it's tropey" and think that you're actually saying something.

761 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
F / Earth
Offline
Posted 2/8/18 , edited 2/8/18
I think when people say "cliche," they're not talking about story formatting or anything like that. I think what they're saying is that they're tired of seeing the same story with only marginal differences.

For me, that's especially true with school-themed shows about tsundere girls tormenting bland male characters, with random senpais, loli characters, and ending at a weird, never-to-be complete place. You can almost predict the entire plot, give or take, from the first episode or two.



In fact, with a few exceptions, I think a lot of rom-com and/or medieval knight themed animes are pretty generic (and more so the rom-com), simply because the theme has been done to death. Thus, they tend to stumble into a lot of cliche themes because, eventually, you're going to hit the same content again.

It would be nice to see more unique anime about strong characters and their non-romantic bonds (friends and family, for example). That's what makes anime like One Piece (despite it's horrifying number of episodes--with 10+ more years predicted before completion), Blue Exorcist, Gintama, Full Metal Alchemist, Cowboy Bebop, and now even Erased (etc, etc) some of the most popular anime--even in Japan. They have a flare of uniqueness to them, especially when compared to the anime that are being released at the same time as them.

Ejanss 
17135 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 2/8/18 , edited 2/8/18

zangeif123 wrote:

What else would I call the beach/pool episode that appears in every rom/com anime?


Call it what they do: "The swimsuit episode".
It goes nicely with "The festival episode", where the girls are in yukatas.
Ejanss 
17135 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 2/8/18 , edited 2/8/18

icecreamsnow wrote:

Reminds me of the late nineties when everything was "ironic" without having a clue what it actually meant. Including Alanis Morissette whose song "Ironic" ironically didn't contain any irony.


"It's not 'ironic' when it 'rains on your wedding day'...If you were so afraid it would rain that you moved the ceremony to Arizona, and they just happened to have their biggest freak record rainstorm in twenty years on that day, THAT would be ironic."

And technically, if you're in the 90's being deadpan/facetious/sarcastic, that's being SARDonic. It pays to increase your word power.
55194 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
62 / M / Earth
Offline
Posted 2/9/18 , edited 2/9/18

fasckira wrote:
The rants of "Its cliché" are somewhat cliché in themselves now. Paradox detected.

I would have said meta... We need to go deeper.

I'm reminded of the Patrician quote from the Discworld series:

When I see someone quote Pterry, I get sad again. But it's really a selfish sort of sad. I'd never met, or even seen the man in person, even though I feel as though I have; a future without more Discworld is rather a bleak one.
183 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
34 / M / UK
Offline
Posted 2/9/18 , edited 2/9/18

asharka wrote:

When I see someone quote Pterry, I get sad again. But it's really a selfish sort of sad. I'd never met, or even seen the man in person, even though I feel as though I have; a future without more Discworld is rather a bleak one.


GNU Terry Pratchett
416 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
28 / M / US
Offline
Posted 2/9/18 , edited 2/9/18

GoldCrusader wrote:

Yea and it's very annoying. I get it. You think this show is bad and want to say why with the least words possible cause you are lazy, but using it's just so cliche makes your comment completely irrelevant. Like you say Black Clover is full of cliches and takes from Naruto, but Naruto is full of cliches and takes from Dragonball and HxH AND THEN Dragonball is basically super inspired by the Journey to the west story. You see, everything can be traced back to something else. Please use something else for why you dislike something.


Well pretty much that. I think a lot of people, also lose sight of the fact that teen MCs are going to be a little bit similar to each other regardless; just because their young age will mean that none of them will have much life experience. I really wish they would make an anime with a MC who was in his mid 40s, early 50s. I think a lot of anime writers are afraid that if they don’t make the MC the same age group as their target audience, that it won’t be popular. I’d honestly say that there’s evidence to the contrary to that idea. Think about some of the 90s animes that where popular. Inuyasha, and Rurouni Kenshin were both dominated by adult characters, and they did very well.

38486 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
32 / M / Usually right und...
Online
Posted 2/9/18 , edited 2/9/18
When you've experienced a large enough number of stories coming across one that is completely original is a rare thing.
The more stories you know the easier it is to identify the building blocks that make it up and when those building blocks get reused in another story.

And that's not really a bad thing per se.
Playing a trope straight can be satisfying even if you've seen it before. Using it as a setup to subvert the trope is something else you can do with it. You can use it as a parody. Even acknowledging that you are using a trope that's been around forever and having your characters aware of it can lead to interesting stories.
Then there's setting up "the same old story" only to suddenly go somewhere entirely unexpected which is becoming a trope by itself but still makes for engaging stories if done right.

I read a lot, I watch a lot of movies. I've seen most of the formulaic building blocks and can identify them by now. I still enjoy new stories made up of them.
There's absolutely no point in blaming creators for using the same building blocks that have been used before. I've said this before but it's all in how they use them.

The fact that most of the building blocks have been used by someone before is pretty much inevitable these days. That some of them become genre staples is an unfortunate effect of people emulating things that have been successful before.
There are tropes I hate and will roll my eyes at when I see them used again but that doesn't mean that I consider any story that contains them bad.

For me tropes only become an issue when the same story keeps getting told over and over with different names.
And even then there's a perceived difference between reimagining a classic, like most stories based on fables, and simply telling the same story again and again, like, say, a lot of Steven Seagal movies.

I agree with the general tenor. Simply saying "it's cliché" is not a valid criticism, elobaritng why the clichés make it a bad thing is.
77844 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
51 / F / Toronto
Offline
Posted 2/9/18 , edited 2/9/18
This conversation reminds me of why anime was such a revelation in the late 80's and early 90's the building blocks WERE different from the narratives I was seeing in western tv and movies at the time. there was a different set of character archetypes, different standards of evocative scenery, a different approach to concepts such as collective loyalty vs. personal integerity/independance. It made anime seem new and fresh even though literary analysis of this mode of storytelling would reveal that there were origins for everything. But that's okay very little truly breaks new ground, even seminal works such as the first science fiction novel have roots in gothic romance and heroic adventure. also this was said about science fiction by theadore stugeon but it applies to any medium or mode of story.

"90 percent of it is crud"

It's that ten percent, often using existing building blocks in novel or more appealing ways that are the gems, and even they aren't Truly novel. Even shows like Evangelion or Madoka Magicka, despite being deconstructions of their relative genres had to acknowledge and use the relevant tropes in order to subvert them.
52 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
17 / F
Offline
Posted 2/28/18 , edited 2/28/18
Sorry, but I have to have a space to "hate" on this!!
The rapy and almost like sexually harrasing moments in yuri/yaoi, many of the stories have great potencial, but these "rapy moments totally ruin the genre for me.
25685 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
28 / M / Northern Ireland
Offline
Posted 2/28/18 , edited 2/28/18
I agree with the sentiment thus far that it is not about the tropes or cliches being used but about how they are used.

Tropes/cliches are literary devices, the building blocks of the story; much like a house you can't complain that it uses bricks or cinder block but you can complain that it was built poorly or that the materials were used inappropriately. Or even if it was built well you can complain about the disjointed or outright stupid ground plan/layout. The house could be sturdy but if the bathroom is in the middle of the kitchen you've dun fuqed up.

Use the same building blocks in the same way over... and over... and over again... and you get the harem genre... we all know how well that is going even though pretty much every block used to build that shithouse is being used to much better effect elsewhere. The harem genre is like a new build development where everyone who moved in outright copied the show house but with a different car in the drive and number on the door...
First  Prev  1  2  3  4  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.