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Post Reply Markus Meechan (Count Dankula) has been convicted for "grossly offensive behavior"
runec 
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Posted 3/23/18 , edited 3/24/18

Cathugud wrote:
Yeah fucking ass holes who record a video of their girlfriend's pug doing a Nazi/roman salute for the sole reason of annoying their girlfriend and then posting it on his twitter feed because he found it hilarious ought to be punished by muh social ramifications. I don't care if his intention was to open the seven hells this sort of shit is Orwellian.


You can't make a point about this being Orwellian in the same breath that you disparage social ramifications. You're effectively saying you should be allowed to publicly say and do what you want but no one would be allowed to say and do what they want in response. Which is likewise Orwellian.





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Posted 3/23/18 , edited 3/24/18

mxdan wrote:


Cathugud wrote:


mxdan wrote:


In England and Wales the Public Order Act 1986 prohibits, by its Part 3, expressions of racial hatred, which is defined as hatred against a group of persons by reason of the group's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins. Section 18 of the Act says:

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.
Offences under Part 3 carry a maximum sentence of seven years imprisonment or a fine or both.[6]

The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 inserted Section 4A into the Public Order Act 1986. That part prohibits anyone from causing alarm or distress. Section 4A states, in part:

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

...

(5) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both.[7]
The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 amended the Public Order Act 1986 by adding Part 3A. That Part says, "A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred." The Part protects freedom of expression by stating in Section 29J:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom



British law is pretty clear. He may 'claim' it is for a laugh but the law has to differentiate his intention and the reaction to what he did. Had he been a bit more graceful in his choice of language he probably would of been fine. But the guy was trying to push the limit.

Not that I personally think he should go to jail. I think that assholes like him deserve social ramifications but the law is tricky to discern in this regard because it requires ethical interpretation. That interpretation can vary on experience of person to person so as Runec said a Jurry would of probably been the best choice.

But, what he did probably was illegal.

Perhaps you should be more outraged at how the law was written, not of the enforcement of it.


Yeah fucking ass holes who record a video of their girlfriend's pug doing a Nazi/roman salute for the sole reason of annoying their girlfriend and then posting it on his twitter feed because he found it hilarious ought to be punished by muh social ramifications. I don't care if his intention was to open the seven hells this sort of shit is Orwellian.

Legalism.



Putting 'muh' behind a valid point to try and discredit its importance doesn't do so. It just makes you into a troll. But judging by your response you most likely didn't understand my point. Getting mad at prosecutors for doing their job, as stated by law, is pointless. The law itself is subject to too much interpretation.


Providing his alleged intent doesn't make me 'into a troll'. You probably just don't like how I took the piss out of your comment on social ramifications.



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Posted 3/23/18 , edited 3/24/18

runec wrote:


Cathugud wrote:
Yeah fucking ass holes who record a video of their girlfriend's pug doing a Nazi/roman salute for the sole reason of annoying their girlfriend and then posting it on his twitter feed because he found it hilarious ought to be punished by muh social ramifications. I don't care if his intention was to open the seven hells this sort of shit is Orwellian.


You can't make a point about this being Orwellian in the same breath that you disparage social ramifications. You're effectively saying you should be allowed to publicly say and do what you want but no one would be allowed to say and do what they want in response. Which is likewise Orwellian.




A rather hard-line interpretation of my language but an acceptable one, I am not trying to say that people should be able to say and do what they want without "muh social ramifications" I was being facetious implying that mxdan probably has more in mind when he talks about "social ramifications" than I do. When I was referring to Orwellian I was talking about the Public Order Act and all of its reiterations being interpreted in such a manner that criminalises certain jokes.
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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/24/18

Cathugud wrote:


runec wrote:


Cathugud wrote:
Yeah fucking ass holes who record a video of their girlfriend's pug doing a Nazi/roman salute for the sole reason of annoying their girlfriend and then posting it on his twitter feed because he found it hilarious ought to be punished by muh social ramifications. I don't care if his intention was to open the seven hells this sort of shit is Orwellian.


You can't make a point about this being Orwellian in the same breath that you disparage social ramifications. You're effectively saying you should be allowed to publicly say and do what you want but no one would be allowed to say and do what they want in response. Which is likewise Orwellian.




A rather hard-line interpretation of my language but an acceptable one, I am not trying to say that people should be able to say and do what they want without "muh social ramifications" I was being facetious implying that mxdan probably has more in mind when he talks about "social ramifications" than I do. When I was referring to Orwellian I was talking about the Public Order Act and all of its reiterations being interpreted in such a manner that criminalises certain jokes.


I'm not sure I agree that it's an acceptable interpretation of the law as written. Interpreted to the letter, it shows how badly written this law is. Interpreted to the spirit and there is no crime. Given the reasoning behind this verdict it's now possible for the court to decide motive. If my car blows a tire and I lose control and hit a minority individual I could be arrested for a hate crime, assigned a motive of "racially aggravated attempted murder" and sentenced without being able to defend myself.

When "it was an unavoidable accident" can be reassigned to into "hate crime" by a judge there's no defence in court.

And remember, this was a social media post, not a physical action in the real world. If an electrical fault burns your house down and the court decides it's "insurance fraud" what can you do? Is breaking up with your Japanese girlfriend a hate crime? When will watching anime on Crunchyroll be considered the "hate crime" of cultural appropriation?

When Antifa were rioting every day after Trump was elected I thought the next civil war in the West was going to be the US. It might have to be the UK now. First to leave the EU. First to burn the establishment to the ground? Things are getting bizarrely dystopic at the moment and the warmer weather, when people are more likely to be willing to congregate outside and protest, is coming.
runec 
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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/24/18

Cathugud wrote:
A rather hard-line interpretation of my language but an acceptable one, I am not trying to say that people should be able to say and do what they want without "muh social ramifications" I was being facetious implying that mxdan probably has more in mind when he talks about "social ramifications" than I do. When I was referring to Orwellian I was talking about the Public Order Act and all of its reiterations being interpreted in such a manner that criminalises certain jokes.


Hard line, yes, but given how often freedom of speech gets confused with freedom from consequence around the interwebs I take no chances. >.>

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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18
This is why the 1st amendment is so important. The joke may have been in bad taste, but that is no reason to send someone to jail. The problem with a lot of these "hate speech" laws is that they are arbitrary. What is considered hate speech is completely up to the mercy of the political parties in power and is a slippery slope that can lead to a legal method to silence dissidents of their respective governments. Restricted speech laws can also be used to silence certain views or certain types of people from the rest of society (think Russia's anti-LGBT laws that are supposedly to protect children).

As long as someone is not advocating acts of violence against others, starting a riot or causing mass panic (i.e. shouting fire in a theater when there is no fire), then all speech no matter how offensive it may or may not be to others needs to be protected.
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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18

runec 
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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18
Could you like, you know, not take a shit in the thread please?
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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18

runec wrote:

Could you like, you know, not take a shit in the thread please?


Nope.

Its the truth, they ignore decades of grooming rape gangs and yet arrest and convict a comedian for making a joke. Its pathetic.
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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18

MrAnimeSK wrote:




lul
runec 
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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18

MrAnimeSK wrote:
Nope.

Its the truth, they ignore decades of grooming rape gangs and yet arrest and convict a comedian for making a joke. Its pathetic.


Then say that. Don't shitpost meme it using images of Taliban induced civil unrest from farking Afghanistan.

A shitty meme isn't an argument and your actual argument also likewise ignores several layers of complexity to this problem. Which I assume is why you went for shitty meme in the first place. The failures in a local police force 300 miles away in England don't have much to do with a hate speech case in Scotland.

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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18

runec wrote:


Then say that. Don't shitpost meme it using images of Taliban induced civil unrest from farking Afghanistan.

A shitty meme isn't an argument and your actual argument also likewise ignores several layers of complexity to this problem. Which I assume is why you went for shitty meme in the first place. The failures in a local police force 300 miles away in England don't have much to do with a hate speech case in Scotland.



I can do what i want. I can post a meme if i want to.
Its not just this incident, thousands of people in the UK are getting arrested or fined for making Facebook or twitter comments. And no iam not talking about vile actual racist hate speech and a call to arms, iam talking about people just making an opinion or pointing something out, making a complaint, expressing fear and concern, sticking up for their own, making a joke, etc.
Look at how Tommy Robinson is treated, look at how recently Lauren Southern was treated, detained and booted out, no longer welcome in the UK. ETC.
Free speech is in massive danger. The UK is like 1984 but worse, on a whole nother level. And its one law for a certain type of peoples and another law for others.

This video will be a good watch for you;
The UK: RISE of the Anarcho-Tyranny STATE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEOmlPM08A

I have a good mate over in the UK so iam not just going off you tube and google and Facebook.

But there will always be people like yourself, who support the end of free speech based on the belief that if anyone or someone MAY be offended by a differing opinion(or a joke), that it is justified.
Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18

kevz_210 wrote:


As long as someone is not advocating acts of violence against others



Circumstantial but things like this need checks, and it was; most societies will use indirect means to check these things.
From what I've read, The dog wasn't the problem but this awkward edgy nationalist guy Airing on the TV hitler's insistent gassing of the jews and making it a joke, call it overly sensitive if you want but to holocaust survivors and veterans of WWII its pretty fucking insensitive

The reality is, We don't live in a world where we can do whatever we want in public, there are too many damn people and it causes unnecessary drama, current actions of media reflect this, even for the president, there are limits to everyone and its for that reason.


mxdan 
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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18

MrAnimeSK wrote:


runec wrote:


Then say that. Don't shitpost meme it using images of Taliban induced civil unrest from farking Afghanistan.

A shitty meme isn't an argument and your actual argument also likewise ignores several layers of complexity to this problem. Which I assume is why you went for shitty meme in the first place. The failures in a local police force 300 miles away in England don't have much to do with a hate speech case in Scotland.



I can do what i want. I can post a meme if i want to.
Its not just this incident, thousands of people in the UK are getting arrested or fined for making Facebook or twitter comments. And no iam not talking about vile actual racist hate speech and a call to arms, iam talking about people just making an opinion or pointing something out, making a complaint, expressing fear and concern, sticking up for their own, making a joke, etc.
Look at how Tommy Robinson is treated, look at how recently Lauren Southern was treated, detained and booted out, no longer welcome in the UK. ETC.
Free speech is in massive danger. The UK is like 1984 but worse, on a whole nother level. And its one law for a certain type of peoples and another law for others.

This video will be a good watch for you;
The UK: RISE of the Anarcho-Tyranny STATE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEOmlPM08A

I have a good mate over in the UK so iam not just going off you tube and google and Facebook.

But there will always be people like yourself, who support the end of free speech based on the belief that if anyone or someone MAY be offended by a differing opinion(or a joke), that it is justified.


I stopped the video when he started complaining about sensitivity training like it was tyrannical. Of all the backwards things. Have you read 1984? Because based on your comparisons it seems you haven't. >_>

As far as Lauren Southern goes. She was booted because she isn't a British Citizen and the last time she was in the country she was performing a 'social experiment' that involved handing out fliers that said Allah is gay on a table she set up that had lgbt colors all over the statement. Given that she was in an extremely Muslim area it's no wonder people were very offended by what she did. Given that she isn't a citizen and visitors have no right to spark outrage or political change in a country that they have no steak in it's no wonder she was denied entry.

She clearly has no respect the country, she just wanted to make her little partisan 'look at how intolerant British Muslims are' message, because like most people taking part in alt left or alt right outrage, confirmation bias is more important than honesty.




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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/24/18

MrAnimeSK wrote:


runec wrote:


Then say that. Don't shitpost meme it using images of Taliban induced civil unrest from farking Afghanistan.

A shitty meme isn't an argument and your actual argument also likewise ignores several layers of complexity to this problem. Which I assume is why you went for shitty meme in the first place. The failures in a local police force 300 miles away in England don't have much to do with a hate speech case in Scotland.



I can do what i want. I can post a meme if i want to.
Its not just this incident, thousands of people in the UK are getting arrested or fined for making Facebook or twitter comments. And no iam not talking about vile actual racist hate speech and a call to arms, iam talking about people just making an opinion or pointing something out, making a complaint, expressing fear and concern, sticking up for their own, making a joke, etc.
Look at how Tommy Robinson is treated, look at how recently Lauren Southern was treated, detained and booted out, no longer welcome in the UK. ETC.
Free speech is in massive danger. The UK is like 1984 but worse, on a whole nother level. And its one law for a certain type of peoples and another law for others.

This video will be a good watch for you;
The UK: RISE of the Anarcho-Tyranny STATE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEOmlPM08A

I have a good mate over in the UK so iam not just going off you tube and google and Facebook.

But there will always be people like yourself, who support the end of free speech based on the belief that if anyone or someone MAY be offended by a differing opinion(or a joke), that it is justified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)

This dude literally looks for trouble,and doesn't learn his lesson after being jailed multiple times. Many of his crimes have very little to do with the government maybe violating his freedom of speech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Southern


In March 2018, Southern was detained by border guards in Coquelles, France and was blocked from entering the United Kingdom (UK).[14][39] The reason for her ban came from an incident in February that year, in which she distributed flyers saying "Allah is a Gay God" in the English town of Luton.[40] With respect to her denial of entry into the UK, a representative from the British Home Office stated, “Border Force has the power to refuse entry to an individual if it is considered that his or her presence in the UK is not conducive to the public good



In 2017, Southern supported the nativist group Defend Europe opposing the action of non-governmental organizations involved in search-and-rescue operations in the Mediterranean Sea. She was detained by the Italian Coast Guard for blocking a ship carrying refugees


I have no sympathy for her either as her intentions are far from pure,and just don't lead to anything positive.

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