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Post Reply A university in Wisconsin wants to gut Liberal Arts majors
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Posted 3/22/18 , edited 3/22/18
mxdan 
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I'm not subscribed to the WP so I can't read the article but I'm assuming this is due to a push from the right?

Cutting philosophy and english is borderline self destructive. These are a few of the things that stabilize people as people. I'd argue the worth of a college isn't the degree you get but the compass it helps you develop to be a well reasoned and intentioned person. Specific classes in the Liberal Arts are a huge force for good. With that said I think there are a couple of classes that we could see reform in that sort of manufacture civil unrest and extremely Marxist sympathies.

For instance with the former, teaching children that white men are oppressors of women and the colored may have been true to an extent historically (Though power and wealth always oppress to certain degree) it isn't correct to characterize the world as a giant racist patriarchy that has to be fought. It removes any sort of ethical procedure that all people need to communicate when they participate in progressive dialogue. Simply removing the complication for emotional dissatisfaction and unrest doesn't actually fix something. It leads to more oppression. I'd argue a fair amount of the humanities have been engaging in a degree of this for a while now. It's the reason why people fight speakers coming to have a discussion at the universities. Like when jordan peterson (A moderate) tried to speak at Queens University he was met with something unreasonable -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26xfc53XfCA.

No one protesting even listened to his points. This in my mind flies in the face of what a Liberal Arts degree should be teaching you. It is a sign that the degrees need to be reevaluated in their long term goals. They shouldn't be breeding civil violence and unrest because the world is the best its ever been. They should be breeding contained and intelligent progress. They should be teaching people how to engage the world not to fight it.

Obviously not all the Liberal Arts degrees fall under this umbrella. Just the ones that seem to hinge on really far left tenants. I think there are certain Liberal Arts degree that if cut OR reevaluated would only produce net negatives for us all.

I hope that Wisconsin really things about what they are trying to do.
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Posted 3/22/18 , edited 3/22/18
You don't actually need to be subscribed to read the article. Simply right click on the link and select "Open Link in New Private Window". This works for most websites with a paywall, and it seems to work for me.

On topic, this is awful news but hardly surprising. Scott Walker has been trying to gut education for years now.
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well if you don't teach it in the first place, we certainly are doomed to repeat it. just because it has "liberal" in the name of it, doesn't mean it's in reference to something. I sure am concerned more and more for the future anymore. some of us still like to speak and be educated. well this isn't going to end well for future generations that's for sure. first it was cursive writing, next, let's cut out speaking, location, history and keep the idiots in the dark? if that's not the grand scheme of things, sure sound like it to me. RIP education just a bit further.
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Posted 3/22/18 , edited 3/23/18
Hoo need eenglish filousoufy and histouri aniwey. in last Ɛ0 yeerz wan kallege drooped them and waz fain. thiz shou that evri kallege doez good withaut them.
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SocialJusticeWarrior wrote:

Hoo need eenglish filousoufy and histouri aniwey. in last Ɛ0 yeerz wan kallege drooped them and waz fain. thiz shou that evri kallege doez good withaut them.


This post actually made me think of something I had never thought of before: maybe we actually don't need English classes. I was able to make it through that at about 75-80% of my usual speed.
mxdan 
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Posted 3/23/18 , edited 3/23/18

foraslan wrote:


SocialJusticeWarrior wrote:

Hoo need eenglish filousoufy and histouri aniwey. in last Ɛ0 yeerz wan kallege drooped them and waz fain. thiz shou that evri kallege doez good withaut them.


This post actually made me think of something I had never thought of before: maybe we actually don't need English classes. I was able to make it through that at about 75-80% of my usual speed.


You're basing your interpretation of what he said on English. So you are still using English.

If he spoke in symbols that would be another thing entirely.
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Posted 3/23/18 , edited 3/23/18

mxdan wrote:


foraslan wrote:


SocialJusticeWarrior wrote:

Hoo need eenglish filousoufy and histouri aniwey. in last Ɛ0 yeerz wan kallege drooped them and waz fain. thiz shou that evri kallege doez good withaut them.


This post actually made me think of something I had never thought of before: maybe we actually don't need English classes. I was able to make it through that at about 75-80% of my usual speed.


You're basing your interpretation of what he said on English. So you are still using English.

If he spoke in symbols that would be another thing entirely.


He was speaking in symbols- that's what letters are. And using English doesn't require English classes- especially at a collegiate level. Regardless, I wrote that half-joking, although it's my own fault you didn't catch it. My point, if there was one, is that perfect spelling and grammar aren't necessary.
mxdan 
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Posted 3/23/18 , edited 3/23/18

foraslan wrote:


mxdan wrote:


foraslan wrote:


SocialJusticeWarrior wrote:

Hoo need eenglish filousoufy and histouri aniwey. in last Ɛ0 yeerz wan kallege drooped them and waz fain. thiz shou that evri kallege doez good withaut them.


This post actually made me think of something I had never thought of before: maybe we actually don't need English classes. I was able to make it through that at about 75-80% of my usual speed.


You're basing your interpretation of what he said on English. So you are still using English.

If he spoke in symbols that would be another thing entirely.


He was speaking in symbols- that's what letters are. And using English doesn't require English classes- especially at a collegiate level. Regardless, I wrote that half-joking, although it's my own fault you didn't catch it. My point, if there was one, is that perfect spelling and grammar aren't necessary.


I can't give you a justified response because I'm at work but letters are symbols that create higher level concepts, not direct pictographs. What you spoke Of with his response was based on English higher concepts. Without an understanding of which it would of been gibberish. This is why we can understand hieroglyphs but need a Rosetta Stone for language.
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Posted 3/23/18 , edited 3/23/18
I guess i"m the outlier here. The second article is clearly by some academic trying to save his job. The first article seems quite sensible to me. We are owed a high school education by law. After that we are owed nothing. It is not stated explicitly, but it is implied that the state is chipping in to support the university system. So, the state isn't doing that out of the goodness of their heart. They are investing in students with the expectation that they will then obtain good paying jobs, enough to pay their student loans, and more importantly, pay taxes. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, shocked that they haven't been doing this all along. And it's not as if the courses just disappeared. According to the first article, they just aren't major courses any more, but are available as minor courses. I have also found that in many courses, especially liberal arts courses, the instructors are superfluous. The text books are designed to be self instructional. So just get the list of reading material from the course syllabus and just read it. Once you graduate, you end up doing that anyway. You have to self-educate yourself to handle whatever tasks your work life or personal interests present to you.
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Posted 3/23/18 , edited 3/24/18
selv-edjukait work for meth and fizikz also
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mxdan wrote:

I can't give you a justified response because I'm at work but letters are symbols that create higher level concepts, not direct pictographs. What you spoke Of with his response was based on English higher concepts. Without an understanding of which it would of been gibberish. This is why we can understand hieroglyphs but need a Rosetta Stone for language.


Yes, letters are combined to create a higher level of symbolic communication via the written word. But the particular objects we call written words aren't what we need to recognize. Rather, it's more important that I (and you) recognize that each letter can represent certain sounds, and that each sound can be represented by certain letters or groups of letters- because language is based around speech, not writing!

So although I understand what words are, what I need to read incorrectly spelled words is actually a lower level concept of sounds, and the idea that letters are connected to them, not to mention enough exposure that I can recognize multiple possibilities. You don't need English classes for any of those. Just someone willing to read to you, and lots of practice.

I have a hunch that without English classes, our spellings would be much more phonetic than they are in our current state of affairs. People would see the simple rules, and gravitate toward them, gradually dropping the odd exceptions that are all around us. Granted, that's not wholly a good thing: spelling in a standardized manner keeps our current writing (and, to an extent, our speech) connected to its history, whether it be changes in our dialects or borrowing from other languages. That means longer times until we can't read a piece of writing, cues to the original pronunciation and origin, and insight into its roots and (historical) meaning. Perfectly simple phonetic spelling would result in quickly outdated writing, and difficulty in tracing the histories of words we are unfamiliar with. Still, it has its advantages.

I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at when you say that I'm "using English" to read. Of course I am. It's my native language. What concepts do you think I need to be explicitly aware of to understand what he's saying, and why do you think they require English classes?

I'm not saying all English classes are entirely useless. Just that maybe there shouldn't be so much focus on spelling and punctuation.
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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18
Classes kids weren't taking, which have little career prospects, at a satellite campus. No big deal.
mxdan 
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Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/24/18

foraslan wrote:

So although I understand what words are, what I need to read incorrectly spelled words is actually a lower level concept of sounds, and the idea that letters are connected to them, not to mention enough exposure that I can recognize multiple possibilities. You don't need English classes for any of those. Just someone willing to read to you, and lots of practice.


I'm failing to understand how this is connected to your original assessment but if I may engage it a bit everything is based upon a scale. Basic English is taught by your parents (usually) and the further along in teaching you go the more complicated concepts can be articulated. You do need classes though. But I think your being hung up on the word classes? Teaching isn't simply defined by a simple idea of sitting in a lecture though the same basic principals of being taught apply regardless of the setting. I'd argue that simply having someone read to you is full of limitations especially if you are going to succeed in collegiate level pursuits.

You originally said that you thought that people don't need English classes in college because you understood the words someone wrote based on your history and interpretation with English. Do you really think that would of been possible to do if you had simply had someone teach you by sound only? You wouldn't have been able to understand those symbols at all. Likewise, the further down along the scale of education you go the harder that would of been to read.


I have a hunch that without English classes, our spellings would be much more phonetic than they are in our current state of affairs.

And our basis of understanding and principal would to. English classes are a pursuit to better understand how English functions, not pointlessness. But I get your point, English can be needlessly complicated in areas.


People would see the simple rules, and gravitate toward them, gradually dropping the odd exceptions that are all around us. Granted, that's not wholly a good thing: spelling in a standardized manner keeps our current writing (and, to an extent, our speech) connected to its history, whether it be changes in our dialects or borrowing from other languages. That means longer times until we can't read a piece of writing, cues to the original pronunciation and origin, and insight into its roots and (historical) meaning. Perfectly simple phonetic spelling would result in quickly outdated writing, and difficulty in tracing the histories of words we are unfamiliar with. Still, it has its advantages.


Well said, no disagreement there.


I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at when you say that I'm "using English" to read. Of course I am. It's my native language. What concepts do you think I need to be explicitly aware of to understand what he's saying, and why do you think they require English classes?


Despite what it looked like, it was still formulated in English and understood in English. Meaning it went through a network of similarity that is understood on a specific facet of speech. There is uniformity in language in outcome but the process of getting there is entirely different from language to language. English in particular takes tenses and concepts in different order towards understanding. It is notoriously hard to understand because of this. When this was said:


foraslan wrote:


SocialJusticeWarrior wrote:

Hoo need eenglish filousoufy and histouri aniwey. in last Ɛ0 yeerz wan kallege drooped them and waz fain. thiz shou that evri kallege doez good withaut them.


This post actually made me think of something I had never thought of before: maybe we actually don't need English classes. I was able to make it through that at about 75-80% of my usual speed.


Your entire formulation was rooted in a specific facet of understanding that is encompassed by English. I said what I said because your understanding was based on a pretty high understanding of English. Someone who doesn't take any English Classes or has little to no understanding of grammar or even English for that matter can't make those concepts into something tangible. The only way for humans to look at something that isn't scaled and worked on and understand it is if we are talking about basic principals that everyone understands as a living human being. Pictographs can be transferred with out a higher scale of understanding. English becomes way harder to do so.


I'm not saying all English classes are entirely useless. Just that maybe there shouldn't be so much focus on spelling and punctuation.


Maybe, but in my opinion, lots of our issues stem from a loss of understanding in language. Lots, actually most of our issues can be remedied if they can be articulated logically and sympathetically. The second of which seems to get lost often if your name is mxdan and you make forum posts >_>.

I hope that bridged our understanding a bit. I don't think we disagree all that much.
Posted 3/24/18 , edited 3/25/18


Business influenced cuts. >.>

I agree, its a pain to have to go out of state to find what a student might be looking for. English is a part of the culture, as relevant as any other subject. To many non-speakers, English is one of the hardest languages to learn, and even many native English speakers are definitely not experts in vocabulary and syntax.




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