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Post Reply A university in Wisconsin wants to gut Liberal Arts majors
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Posted 3/30/18 , edited 3/31/18
Native Wisconsinite here. Current Illinois resident but Wisconsin voter. Sister went to Stevens Point. I voted for Walker twice.

As a Catholic, I am aware that when we the Church invented universities the primary goal was to make better Christians. We also valued and created the sciences and many other things, but those were tertiary to creating more formidable Christians. Secular regressives appropriated and stole the institution known as the university. As such, I have no sympathy for their tears as my native state stops their corruption of the institution, having turned it into, basically, a seminary for regressive secular extremism.

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Posted 3/30/18 , edited 3/31/18

karatecowboy wrote:

Native Wisconsinite here. Current Illinois resident but Wisconsin voter. Sister went to Stevens Point. I voted for Walker twice.

As a Catholic, I am aware that when we the Church invented universities the primary goal was to make better Christians. We also valued and created the sciences and many other things, but those were tertiary to creating more formidable Christians. Secular regressives [?] appropriated and stole the institution known as the university. As such, I have no sympathy for their tears as my native state stops their corruption of the institution, having turned it into, basically, a seminary for regressive secular extremism.






A) You did not create 'the sciences'. Some people who were perhaps catholic added to science as a pursuit. But taking credit for everything is about wrong as it gets. Scientific discoveries embody far more then just the catholic church from continent to continent. And as you and I discussed before a long time ago, many Catholics who made discoveries were either jailed or exiled BY the church.

The two aren't intrinsic to each other.

B) Conspiracy theories are so hilarious in how easily refutable they are if you actually look at your reasoning for a second. Youre arguing that seculars somehow stole the institution and now what, repress dogma? You can take a religious study course at most schools. It's just not primary like you want it to be. But no particular is primary. Seculars don't adhere to 'secularism' because of some primary goal to rid the world of your religious table. They are seculars because they aren't something. Big difference. The church doesn't align itself well with scientific discovery it turns out because it operates under a knowing principal. Science attempts to find the answers itself without gods council.
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Posted 3/30/18 , edited 3/31/18

mxdan wrote:


karatecowboy wrote:

Native Wisconsinite here. Current Illinois resident but Wisconsin voter. Sister went to Stevens Point. I voted for Walker twice.

As a Catholic, I am aware that when we the Church invented universities the primary goal was to make better Christians. We also valued and created the sciences and many other things, but those were tertiary to creating more formidable Christians. Secular regressives [?] appropriated and stole the institution known as the university. As such, I have no sympathy for their tears as my native state stops their corruption of the institution, having turned it into, basically, a seminary for regressive secular extremism.






A) You did not create 'the sciences'. Some people who were perhaps catholic added to science as a pursuit. But taking credit for everything is about wrong as it gets. Scientific discoveries embody far more then just the catholic church from continent to continent. And as you and I discussed before a long time ago, many Catholics who made discoveries were either jailed or exiled BY the church.

The two aren't intrinsic to each other.

B) Conspiracy theories are so hilarious in how easily refutable they are if you actually look at your reasoning for a second. Youre arguing that seculars somehow stole the institution and now what, repress dogma? You can take a religious study course at most schools. It's just not primary like you want it to be. But no particular is primary. Seculars don't adhere to 'secularism' because of some primary goal to rid the world of your religious table. They are seculars because they aren't something. Big difference. The church doesn't align itself well with scientific discovery it turns out because it operates under a knowing principal. Science attempts to find the answers itself without gods council.


A)

Historians of science such as Pierre Duhem credit medieval Catholic mathematicians and philosophers such as John Buridan, Nicole Oresme, and Roger Bacon as the founders of modern science

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_science

B) I don't know what you're going on about. Conspiracy theories? Wuuh? What's next: yelling that jet fuel can't melt steel beams?
mxdan 
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Posted 3/31/18 , edited 3/31/18
From this first line of your link:

"The relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and science is a widely debated subject."

Most of those relationships are contested because the proclivity of most the instances brought up aren't black and white. Rarely, if ever, do people make discoveries by the Catholic Church for the Catholic Church because of the church. Often the relationship regarding this is complicated. So simply crediting the Church is nonsense.

To take one example this Wiki article credits a few Catholic men as creating the Scientific Method? This guy does a good job explaining the problem with most these arguments:


In the past I’ve written posts explaining why the terms “father of” and “the greatest” should be firmly avoided when writing about the history of science. James Sumner has also written an excellent post The F-Word explaining why the term “the first” should also be banned from the vocabulary of any serious historian of science or technology. Today I’m going to explain why the expression “XY invented the scientific method” should also be regarded as a hanging offense!

Rather like the terms the greatest or the father of, inventor of the scientific method is an attribute that has been applied to a myriad of scholars down through the ages, Aristotle, Archimedes, Ibn al-Haytham, Galileo, Bacon (both Roger and Francis), Descartes and Newton are just some of the more prominent historical figures who invented the scientific method. Makes for kind of a crowded field doesn’t it?

The real problems start when one tries to define what exactly “The” scientific method actually is. In reality there isn’t any such animal. There are a related family of methods and practices that have been used over the centuries to produce, test and question scientific hypotheses and theories, not one single golden method.

The next problem is that these methods and practices are not exclusive or restricted to science but are procedures that are used in problem solving in almost all areas of human activity. However if I just refer to them as methods of problem solving it doesn’t seem so impressive and at the same time it robs science of its claim to being special.

All these methods consist of is the application of logical reasoning about a problem to form a hypothetical solution, the testing of that hypothetical solution and the repeated application of logical reasoning to analyse the results of those tests. It is literally impossible to judge when humanoids first started using this approach to solve problems.

Even if we restrict ourselves to the areas of human activity subsumed under the concepts of science and technology we will never be able to find “the inventor”. Every early potter used this methodology to find better clays for his pots, better methods of firing his kilns, better materials and methods for glazing, which one of them could be said to have invented the scientific method? The same applies to brick makers, tanners, dyers, metal smelters, metal workers, the makers of flint tools and a dozen other groups of hand workers and craftsmen.

As it says in the title nobody invented the scientific method, so would all historians and philosophers of science and especially those who think they are but are not really please stop using this meaningless string of words.

https://thonyc.wordpress.com/2012/08/29/nobody-invented-the-scientific-method/


----

Let me simplify what I said: You're attributing group think and primary purpose to something that arguably doesn't have any guiding principals or combination beyond what it doesn't believe.

Skeptics don't meet in mass to every Sunday discuss how to fight the religious. You're being a bit conspiratorial.
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Posted 3/31/18 , edited 3/31/18
From OP's first link:


... It said that the school faces a $4.5 million deficit over two years because declining enrollment has led to lower tuition revenue, and proposes adding or expanding 16 programs in areas “with high-demand career paths as a way to maintain and increase enrollment.” Last fall, the school saw an enrollment decrease of 5.4 percent from the year before. That was on top of a 6.8 percent drop the previous year.
“To fund this future investment, resources would be shifted from programs with lower enrollment, primarily in the traditional humanities and social sciences,” the school statement says. “Although some majors are proposed to be eliminated, courses would continue to be taught in these fields, and minors or certificates will be offered.”
Programs that would be expanded, which “have demonstrated value and demand in the region,” include marketing, management, graphic design, fire science and computer information systems...


The university isn't cutting back on the liberal arts "for the evulz," or anything. They're just trying to boost their enrollment. It doesn't to any good to stubbornly refuse to make some sacrifices when the whole of the university is at risk.
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Posted 3/31/18 , edited 3/31/18

Cardamom_Ginger wrote:


The university isn't cutting back on the liberal arts "for the evulz," or anything. They're just trying to boost their enrollment. it doesn't to any good to stubbornly refuse to make some sacrifices when the whole of the university is at risk.


This.

The university is changing. Old, sluggish, and rotting in groupthink and philosophical stagnation, they are being out-competed by technical and trade schools. I wish developer bootcamps had been around when I was finishing high school.
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Posted 3/31/18 , edited 3/31/18

Cardamom_Ginger wrote:


The university isn't cutting back on the liberal arts "for the evulz," or anything. They're just trying to boost their enrollment. It doesn't to any good to stubbornly refuse to make some sacrifices when the whole of the university is at risk.


The university is only in trouble for an easily avoidable reason.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/07/13/gov-scott-walker-savages-wisconsin-public-education-in-new-budget/?utm_term=.0d66e17f1f27

I've seen this movie before in my home state under our previous governor. Spoiler alert, it doesn't end well.

http://www.nola.com/opinions/index.ssf/2017/12/what_nicholls_state_and_harvar.html


Walker, Jindal and others like them may not be doing it "for the evulz", but it's pretty damn close.

http://theweek.com/articles/741255/gop-war-college
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Posted 3/31/18 , edited 3/31/18
On a side note, there are very good reasons to reform the university system:

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/03/13/public-university-hosting-lecture-on-the-existential-threat-of-whiteness
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Posted 3/31/18 , edited 3/31/18


I don’t view this as a problem. My alma mater hosted Daniel Pipes and Lawrence Kraus within a few weeks of each other. It goes both ways.
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Posted 3/31/18 , edited 4/1/18

geauxtigers1989 wrote:
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I don’t view this as a problem. My alma mater hosted Daniel Pipes and Lawrence Kraus within a few weeks of each other. It goes both ways.


Lawrence Kraus the physicist? I don't see how that's similar to racial hatred.

I am not familiar with Danial Pipes, but from the wiki entry about him, the most egregious thing he seems to have done is being concerned about Jews and anti-semitism.

That's really just the tip of the iceberg with the UW system.
https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=8557
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There has been little public discussion about the logic of white supremacy and how it contextualizes the ways in which we understand who is a terrorist/what counts as terrorism; who is a patriot/what counts as patriotism; and who is an immigrant and what counts as unfavorable immigration.


So tell me why this subject is racial hatred? To me it is a legitimate intellectual topic that was given a somewhat divisive name to draw attention to it's content. With our recent political climate and the national attention given to white supremacists of late, why wouldn't we discuss these ideas?

Are you equally offended when Richard Spencer is invited to speak at a campus or is that more in line with your dogma?
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Posted 3/31/18 , edited 4/1/18

karatecowboy wrote:

Lawrence Kraus the physicist? I don't see how that's similar to racial hatred.

I am not familiar with Danial Pipes, but from the wiki entry about him, the most egregious thing he seems to have done is being concerned about Jews and anti-semitism.

That's really just the tip of the iceberg with the UW system.
https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=8557


Kraus is an outspoken anti-theist, and Pipes is known for having some really weird ideas about Islam and the Middle East in general (when Christopher Hitchens, of all people, calls you an Islamophobe, you probably have issues).

Anyway, we're getting off track here. This doesn't have anything to do with Walker's hatchet job.
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Posted 4/9/18 , edited 4/9/18

mxdan wrote:

I'm not subscribed to the WP so I can't read the article but I'm assuming this is due to a push from the right?



No, it's not a conspiracy. It's been a long-running trend.
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Posted 4/9/18 , edited 4/9/18

nanikore2 wrote:


mxdan wrote:

I'm not subscribed to the WP so I can't read the article but I'm assuming this is due to a push from the right?



No, it's not a conspiracy. It's been a long-running trend.


From, what? Pay scale? What reason does a university have to cut everything but STEMS?
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Posted 4/9/18 , edited 4/9/18
Oh wow what shall i do about this?
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