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Post Reply Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Die Neue These Discussion
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Posted 4/5/18 , edited 4/5/18
George Armstrong Custer wasn't incompetent, though.
qwueri 
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Posted 4/5/18 , edited 4/5/18

Holofernes wrote:

I get it. Not your cup of tea. The original series had the same first episode story, so if its a faithful reboot this is how it was written they had to include its realism. That other stuff you have a problem is easily answered with "real figures can be mooks," "sci-fi usually has a sc-fi answer" for space elements. If suspension of disbelief over elements which you of I don't have a real competency to nitpick over is too much for you, then I guess it wasn't your genre to begin with.


More a matter of I'm on the fence because I'm not crazy about what tropes are being used and how they're being applied in the first episode. And even in sci-fi, suspension of disbelief only works so long as there's consistency in how it's applied (or the presentation is just fun enough to disregard the parts that don't work).

There's parts of the first episode that struck me as crudely written, but overall it did maintain a brisk enough pace and sense of scope that I wasn't bored by the end. Hence: I'm on the fence about it. That shouldn't really affect your own enjoyment of the show.
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Posted 4/5/18 , edited 4/5/18

gornotck wrote:

George Armstrong Custer wasn't incompetent, though.



"Hurrah boys, we've got them! We'll finish them up and then go home to our station."

—Famous words reportedly said by General Custer shortly before being killed.

I would say you are right in a sense, a good argument can be made that Gen. Custer wasn't incompetent, and far from it. But that's the thing though, failures happen even to competent people. In war that means death and no do overs. Where LoTGH excels at is demonstrating that trope. There are no Gary Stu's in LoTGH
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Posted 4/5/18 , edited 4/5/18

qwueri wrote:


Holofernes wrote:

I get it. Not your cup of tea. The original series had the same first episode story, so if its a faithful reboot this is how it was written they had to include its realism. That other stuff you have a problem is easily answered with "real figures can be mooks," "sci-fi usually has a sc-fi answer" for space elements. If suspension of disbelief over elements which you of I don't have a real competency to nitpick over is too much for you, then I guess it wasn't your genre to begin with.


More a matter of I'm on the fence because I'm not crazy about what tropes are being used and how they're being applied in the first episode. And even in sci-fi, suspension of disbelief only works so long as there's consistency in how it's applied (or the presentation is just fun enough to disregard the parts that don't work).

There's parts of the first episode that struck me as crudely written, but overall it did maintain a brisk enough pace and sense of scope that I wasn't bored by the end. Hence: I'm on the fence about it. That shouldn't really affect your own enjoyment of the show.


You may not have seen the original, but its very anti-Gary Stu. Not going to spoil the story for you but the author is going to include a lot of elements that remind the viewers that "war and politics are awful, and they take away the best people."
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Posted 4/5/18 , edited 4/5/18

qwueri wrote:

More a matter of I'm on the fence because I'm not crazy about what tropes are being used and how they're being applied in the first episode. And even in sci-fi, suspension of disbelief only works so long as there's consistency in how it's applied (or the presentation is just fun enough to disregard the parts that don't work).

There's parts of the first episode that struck me as crudely written, but overall it did maintain a brisk enough pace and sense of scope that I wasn't bored by the end. Hence: I'm on the fence about it. That shouldn't really affect your own enjoyment of the show.

Honestly your posts in this thread read like you're nitpicking, looking for an excuse to attack the anime. Although I must say, it's a bold strategy trying to attack LotGH over it's writing, even Reinhard himself would praise you for your daring. Assuming of course you win the argument that is.

To elaborate on what I said earlier, LotGH is very character driven. A big part of that is the theme that deeply flawed commanders get their troops killed. This is true in the political sphere as well. With the war going on for over 100 years both sides have stagnated. The Federation of Free Planets is corrupt to the core. While the Galactic Empire promotes people based on aristocratic bloodlines and not necessarily merit. So there are plenty of incompetant commanders to go around.
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Posted 4/5/18 , edited 4/5/18

Kintor wrote:


qwueri wrote:

More a matter of I'm on the fence because I'm not crazy about what tropes are being used and how they're being applied in the first episode. And even in sci-fi, suspension of disbelief only works so long as there's consistency in how it's applied (or the presentation is just fun enough to disregard the parts that don't work).

There's parts of the first episode that struck me as crudely written, but overall it did maintain a brisk enough pace and sense of scope that I wasn't bored by the end. Hence: I'm on the fence about it. That shouldn't really affect your own enjoyment of the show.

Honestly your posts in this thread read like you're nitpicking, looking for an excuse to attack the anime. Although I must say, it's a bold strategy trying to attack LotGH over it's writing, even Reinhard himself would praise you for your daring. Assuming of course you win the argument that is.

To elaborate on what I said earlier, LotGH is very character driven. A big part of that is the theme that deeply flawed commanders get their troops killed. This is true in the political sphere as well. With the war going on for over 100 years both sides have stagnated. The Federation of Free Planets is corrupt to the core. While the Galactic Empire promotes people based on aristocratic bloodlines and not necessarily merit. So there are plenty of incompetant commanders to go around.


I do have one problem with LotGH's writing. However, it's something that happens way later on. I think Reuenthal's 'final decision' was the stupidest thing ever.

I mean there's being proud, and then there is just being a plain idiot.

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Posted 4/5/18 , edited 4/6/18

xxJing wrote:

I do have one problem with LotGH's writing. However, it's something that happens way later on. I think Reuenthal's 'final decision' was the stupidest thing ever.

I mean there's being proud, and then there is just being a plain idiot.



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Posted 4/6/18 , edited 4/6/18

qwueri wrote:

More a matter of I'm on the fence because I'm not crazy about what tropes are being used and how they're being applied in the first episode. And even in sci-fi, suspension of disbelief only works so long as there's consistency in how it's applied (or the presentation is just fun enough to disregard the parts that don't work).

There's parts of the first episode that struck me as crudely written, but overall it did maintain a brisk enough pace and sense of scope that I wasn't bored by the end. Hence: I'm on the fence about it. That shouldn't really affect your own enjoyment of the show.

You're fine, I'm in the same boat.

I just don't bring up dissenting opinions in discussion threads because this is where doing so inevitably leads.
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Posted 4/6/18 , edited 4/6/18

RedGeneral wrote:


xxJing wrote:

I do have one problem with LotGH's writing. However, it's something that happens way later on. I think Reuenthal's 'final decision' was the stupidest thing ever.

I mean there's being proud, and then there is just being a plain idiot.





Despite that, I still think it was stupid it's basically like

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Posted 4/6/18 , edited 4/6/18
Bleah, any show that tries to paint its characters as unprecedented tacticians is unlikely to impress.

As usual something magical has to be pulled out of the hat. Two obvious examples in this case are the ability to block all enemy comms and a wilful disregard of the physics of space flight.

As CGI goes the show was OK but the fleets were pretty homogeneous weren't they. And boy they like to fly close, but still staggered enough so that they all present a large overall target to the oncoming fire.

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Posted 4/6/18 , edited 4/6/18

borderliner wrote:

Bleah, any show that tries to paint its characters as unprecedented tacticians is unlikely to impress.

As usual something magical has to be pulled out of the hat. Two obvious examples in this case are the ability to block all enemy comms and a wilful disregard of the physics of space flight.

As CGI goes the show was OK but the fleets were pretty homogeneous weren't they. And boy they like to fly close, but still staggered enough so that they all present a large overall target to the oncoming fire.



Almost any setting with a galactic-scale civilization is already wilfully disregarding physics because FTL,details like "comms can be jammed" is just establishing the rules of the sci-fi setting.It'll be magic out of a hat if comms jamming is impossible (or not used) in another context without a damn good justification.

The real bullshit here is the fact that defeat in detail is a basic tactical concept that anyone trained to command should be very familiar with, not something it takes a genius to come up with. But that's the other way to depict a brilliant tactician - write an average tactician in a world of idiots - which is better than the "deus ex machina on command" way you're hitting on.
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Posted 4/7/18 , edited 4/7/18

Rowan93 wrote:


borderliner wrote:

Bleah, any show that tries to paint its characters as unprecedented tacticians is unlikely to impress.

As usual something magical has to be pulled out of the hat. Two obvious examples in this case are the ability to block all enemy comms and a wilful disregard of the physics of space flight.

As CGI goes the show was OK but the fleets were pretty homogeneous weren't they. And boy they like to fly close, but still staggered enough so that they all present a large overall target to the oncoming fire.



Almost any setting with a galactic-scale civilization is already wilfully disregarding physics because FTL,details like "comms can be jammed" is just establishing the rules of the sci-fi setting.It'll be magic out of a hat if comms jamming is impossible (or not used) in another context without a damn good justification.

The real bullshit here is the fact that defeat in detail is a basic tactical concept that anyone trained to command should be very familiar with, not something it takes a genius to come up with. But that's the other way to depict a brilliant tactician - write an average tactician in a world of idiots - which is better than the "deus ex machina on command" way you're hitting on.


Yep I get what you're saying but those rules have to be known by both sides, if he can jam they must have known wide area jamming was possible and had counter measures available, round and round it goes, the exception to that is an unknown technology such as guns, radar etc... which then tips the balance for a short time until the other side inevitably catches up, no sign in this show they were going in with something new.

I also agree entirely on your second point too and was going to make that statement myself, I've not seen the original and have no knowledge of it but the show does seem to be setting up the other commanders as blundering idiots but it also has the strap line for the show contain this statement "the appearance of two geniuses will change history forever."
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Posted 4/7/18 , edited 4/7/18

borderliner wrote:

Yep I get what you're saying but those rules have to be known by both sides, if he can jam they must have known wide area jamming was possible and had counter measures available, round and round it goes, the exception to that is an unknown technology such as guns, radar etc... which then tips the balance for a short time until the other side inevitably catches up, no sign in this show they were going in with something new.

No offense but you don’t understand how signal jamming actually works. There are no counter-measures for when some inconsiderate people (who may be planning to ambush and kill you) pollute the entire radio spectrum with garbage white noise. In terms of LotGH it just goes to show that just because space is big and empty it's still impossible to know everything about a battlefield. It makes perfect sense that the Galactic Empire was able to use signal jamming so effectively to isolate each enemy fleet. It’s all part of the ‘fog of war’ that makes war strategic.
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Posted 4/7/18 , edited 4/7/18

Kintor wrote:


borderliner wrote:

Yep I get what you're saying but those rules have to be known by both sides, if he can jam they must have known wide area jamming was possible and had counter measures available, round and round it goes, the exception to that is an unknown technology such as guns, radar etc... which then tips the balance for a short time until the other side inevitably catches up, no sign in this show they were going in with something new.

No offense but you don’t understand how signal jamming actually works. There are no counter-measures for when some inconsiderate people (who may be planning to ambush and kill you) pollute the entire radio spectrum with garbage white noise. In terms of LotGH it just goes to show that just because space is big and empty it's still impossible to know everything about a battlefield. It makes perfect sense that the Galactic Empire was able to use signal jamming so effectively to isolate each enemy fleet. It’s all part of the ‘fog of war’ that makes war strategic.


Yep I actually do know exactly how signal jamming works, care to expand on what you mean by the radio spectrum and how wide a band your jamming transmitter(s) would need to operate over to completely close down comms and what power it would need to transmit at to affect the signal to noise ratio at the kind of distances we're looking at here, also care to explain how it could overwhelm point to point laser comms.
Kintor 
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Posted 4/7/18 , edited 4/7/18

borderliner wrote:

Yep I actually do know exactly how signal jamming works, care to expand on what you mean by the radio spectrum and how wide a band your jamming transmitter(s) would need to operate over to completely close down comms and what power it would need to transmit at to affect the signal to noise ratio at the kind of distances we're looking at here, also care to explain how it could overwhelm point to point laser comms.

Well, the important thing to understand about space combat in LotGH is that you don't need to disrupt all of the battlefield, only the area around the fleet your targeting. Space is impossible vast and even with the advanced technology of the future commanders can't stay in contact with allied fleets at the best of times. You'll see this later in the series but the signal jamming often gets so bad on both a sides that commanders have to use fast short-range shuttles to physically courier messages between elements of their own fleets.
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