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Post Reply Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Die Neue These Discussion
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Posted 4/7/18 , edited 4/7/18

Kintor wrote:


borderliner wrote:

Yep I actually do know exactly how signal jamming works, care to expand on what you mean by the radio spectrum and how wide a band your jamming transmitter(s) would need to operate over to completely close down comms and what power it would need to transmit at to affect the signal to noise ratio at the kind of distances we're looking at here, also care to explain how it could overwhelm point to point laser comms.

Well, the important thing to understand about space combat in LotGH is that you don't need to disrupt all of the battlefield, only the area around the fleet your targeting. Space is impossible vast and even with the advanced technology of the future commanders can't stay in contact with allied fleets at the best of times. You'll see this later in the series but the signal jamming often gets so bad on both a sides that commanders have to use fast short-range shuttles to physically courier messages between elements of their own fleets.


Yes, I saw the shuttle method suggested in this episode (that did make me laugh)

Of course what this all comes down to is the transplantation of what seems to be early 20th Century naval tactics and comms capabilities onto an interstellar warfare setting.

Even the concept of a pincer movement in a 3D environment is a bit nonsensical.

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Posted 4/7/18 , edited 4/7/18
Well if they keep up with saying feuer instead of fire I'm going to think they are the bad guys.
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Posted 4/7/18 , edited 4/7/18

borderliner wrote:

Yes, I saw the shuttle method suggested in this episode (that did make me laugh)

Of course what this all comes down to is the transplantation of what seems to be early 20th Century naval tactics and comms capabilities onto an interstellar warfare setting.

Even the concept of a pincer movement in a 3D environment is a bit nonsensical.

Ever played one of the Fallout games? Remember - 'War, war never changes.' That's essentially true, the fool who believes technology renders stategy obsolete is the one caught by suprise, their armies lost and cities reduced to rubble. Even nuclear weapons can't deny the strategic element of war, only sharpen the focus towards clandestine staregies.

A pincer movement is going to operate on the same prinicple regardless of how many dimensions of space your using, it's using two detachments of the same force to overwhelm an opponent and that doesn't change just because the tactic has gone 3D. This is how those modern looking soldiers of the Free Planet Alliance got beaten by men dressed like 19th century Prussian aristocrats, sometimes the old ways are the best. Prosit!
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Posted 4/7/18 , edited 4/7/18

heysteve24 wrote:

Well if they keep up with saying feuer instead of fire I'm going to think they are the bad guys.


They are both the bad guys at the moment.

The Alliance/Rebels/Republic, whatever you want to call them are filled with corrupt politicians, while the Galactic Empire is essentially filled with white supremecist Aristocrats. There is a 3rd country called Fezzan which is alluded to being greedy Jews.
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Posted 4/9/18 , edited 4/10/18
Sci-fi tech problems are always solved by sci-fi narrative needs. Science fiction doesn't have to follow our preconceived notions of what is possible or impossible. I just has to be internally consistent with itself.

Star Trek Wap Drive, subspace, transporters, ect are all impossible IRL. But they are fine in Star Trek because they are necessary narrative devices. I could argue that warp drive should be obsolete in a universe where transporters are possible. But that would just be my opinion. Its not what the narrative has established. Therefore my opinion is invalid there.

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Posted 4/9/18 , edited 4/10/18

gornotck wrote:

George Armstrong Custer wasn't incompetent, though.


This is one of the funniest things I have ever read.

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Posted 4/10/18 , edited 4/10/18

Holofernes wrote:

Sci-fi tech problems are always solved by sci-fi narrative needs. Science fiction doesn't have to follow our preconceived notions of what is possible or impossible. I just has to be internally consistent with itself.

Star Trek Wap Drive, subspace, transporters, ect are all impossible IRL. But they are fine in Star Trek because they are necessary narrative devices. I could argue that warp drive should be obsolete in a universe where transporters are possible. But that would just be my opinion. Its not what the narrative has established. Therefore my opinion is invalid there.



That's the point though isn't it. If you know you're gonna get comms jammed you wouldn't ever use a strategy that works only with clear comms. And if your opponent can do that but you can't then they aren't a strategic genius they're just leveraging superior tech.

And if in this universe you can blind point to point laser comms at those kind of distances and with no apparent risk to yourself well any comms in battle are pointless.

It's not a great idea to invoke Star Trek since it consistently plays fast and loose with its tech for dramatic effect, you need to look to hard sci-fi for stories that are properly bound by the constraints of the available tech.

All that's moot of course, what we saw was a pincer movement which appeared to entail three sections being so dispersed they couldn't see what the enemy was doing despite that enemy clearly having full sight of those three sections, one fleet being able to pass through another with almost no discernible loss that fleet then being able to turn and flank another fleet which appeared to still be unaware of its movements and actions and then the cliffhanger of a potential strategic turnaround in the final act because of a change of command. Did the jamming get turned off now?

I'm fine with stupid space battles, I've watched enough in my time, but just don't set up the genius strategist plot then deliver a show of strategic idiocy.

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Posted 4/10/18 , edited 4/10/18
Episode 2

After the first episode focuses on Reinhard, this one focuses on the leader on the other side of the battlefield, Yang. His plan of action got rejected. So in the heat of battle, Yang makes a bold move and turns the table on Reinhard's forces just when it looked like Reinhard's unit was winning. So in the end, Reinhard orders a retreat out of respect for Yang, and while it ended in a stalemate, it was a win for Reinhard as Yang's forces suffered far more damage. That was some great drama there, and what I like about this show is that it looks at things from both sides of the conflict.
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Posted 4/10/18 , edited 4/10/18

borderliner wrote:

That's the point though isn't it. If you know you're gonna get comms jammed you wouldn't ever use a strategy that works only with clear comms. And if your opponent can do that but you can't then they aren't a strategic genius they're just leveraging superior tech.

You still don't get it, it's not about superior technology, it's about the individual character of the commanders that drive the flow of battle. All strategies rely on communication; this is especially true in LotGH due to the vastness of space. It's the intelligent strategy of Reinhard that stole the initiative from the FFP and attacked when conventional wisdom would've called for a retreat. It's a common story from history, when a superior force is overawed by the aggression of an unorthodox enemy, making the plot of LotGH realistic whether you like it or not.

Also borderliner, it's disapointing that you did not reply to my earlier post. One can't help but think you're not being sincere in this debate, with the way you left the last argument unfinished and only show-up now days later to continue with the same flawed reasoning you used last time.
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Posted 4/10/18 , edited 4/10/18

Kintor wrote:


borderliner wrote:

That's the point though isn't it. If you know you're gonna get comms jammed you wouldn't ever use a strategy that works only with clear comms. And if your opponent can do that but you can't then they aren't a strategic genius they're just leveraging superior tech.

You still don't get it, it's not about superior technology, it's about the individual character of the commanders that drive the flow of battle. All strategies rely on communication; this is especially true in LotGH due to the vastness of space. It's the intelligent strategy of Reinhard that stole the initiative from the FFP and attacked when conventional wisdom would've called for a retreat. It's a common story from history, when a superior force is overawed by the aggression of an unorthodox enemy, making the plot of LotGH realistic whether you like it or not.

Also borderliner, it's disapointing that you did not reply to my earlier post. One can't help but think you're not being sincere in this debate, with the way you left the last argument unfinished and only show-up now days later to continue with the same flawed reasoning you used last time.


Yep sorry I got distracted by DitFxx.

War certainly isn't the same now, and it's probably important at this point to differentiate strategy from tactics, really we were looking at tactical decisions being made in the first show and although strategies may be broadly similar over time tactics need to evolve with the means of waging war.

But we are arguing at cross purposes here, I have no issue with the magical use of technology in sci-fi but I do have an issue with the summoning of mythical strategic genius.

Think about your last statement "It's a common story from history, when a superior force is overawed by the aggression of an unorthodox enemy" that's nothing to do with strategic brilliance it's just getting away (usually for a short time) doing something so bat shit crazy it catches your enemy off guard.

Good example being Pearl Harbour, tactically that looked like a resounding success, but strategically it was the end of Japan.

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Posted 4/10/18 , edited 4/10/18

borderliner wrote:

War certainly isn't the same now, and it's probably important at this point to differentiate strategy from tactics, really we were looking at tactical decisions being made in the first show and although strategies may be broadly similar over time tactics need to evolve with the means of waging war.

But we are arguing at cross purposes here, I have no issue with the magical use of technology in sci-fi but I do have an issue with the summoning of mythical strategic genius.

Think about your last statement "It's a common story from history, when a superior force is overawed by the aggression of an unorthodox enemy" that's nothing to do with strategic brilliance it's just getting away (usually for a short time) doing something so bat shit crazy it catches your enemy off guard.

Good example being Pearl Harbour, tactically that looked like a resounding success, but strategically it was the end of Japan.

It seems that you have a fundamental disagreement with the philosophy of LotGH, if you honestly beleive that the nature of war is any different to how it was in ancient times. Personally, I share the belief of LotGH's author Yoshiki Tanaka, that war is fundamentally a human endeavour and therefore not altered by the passage of time. The humans in the future of LotGH are biologically the same creatures alive today on modern Earth, and we are both no different to our Bronze Age ancestors.

You will see this philosophy expressed further as LotGH progresses. Especially now that Yang Wen-li has been formally introduced as a character. You saw a hint of that when Yang thought to himself that he recognised the circular formation from countless battles across history. As you will discover, Yang relies on his deep historical knowledge to devise unexpected strategies and tactics, causing Reinhard no end of trouble. For Yang the past is an excellent resource to use in current problems, as new generations repeat the mistakes of their predecessors in an endless cycle of violence.
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Posted 4/10/18 , edited 4/10/18
Biggest thing I remember when watching this show on my VHS system was Yang is all defense and Reinhard is all Offense. Plus Yang is a junior officer who gets thrown in command not yet a trusted leader. Reinhold is not only a leader but an Admiral borderline Dictator if you not with him then your against him.
Good thing lasers are different color or battle scenes would be hard to follow.
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Posted 4/10/18 , edited 4/10/18

Kintor wrote:


borderliner wrote:

War certainly isn't the same now, and it's probably important at this point to differentiate strategy from tactics, really we were looking at tactical decisions being made in the first show and although strategies may be broadly similar over time tactics need to evolve with the means of waging war.

But we are arguing at cross purposes here, I have no issue with the magical use of technology in sci-fi but I do have an issue with the summoning of mythical strategic genius.

Think about your last statement "It's a common story from history, when a superior force is overawed by the aggression of an unorthodox enemy" that's nothing to do with strategic brilliance it's just getting away (usually for a short time) doing something so bat shit crazy it catches your enemy off guard.

Good example being Pearl Harbour, tactically that looked like a resounding success, but strategically it was the end of Japan.

It seems that you have a fundamental disagreement with the philosophy of LotGH, if you honestly beleive that the nature of war is any different to how it was in ancient times. Personally, I share the belief of LotGH's author Yoshiki Tanaka, that war is fundamentally a human endeavour and therefore not altered by the passage of time. The humans in the future of LotGH are biologically the same creatures alive today on modern Earth, and we are both no different to our Bronze Age ancestors.

You will see this philosophy expressed further as LotGH progresses. Especially now that Yang Wen-li has been formally introduced as a character. You saw a hint of that when Yang thought to himself that he recognised the circular formation from countless battles across history. As you will discover, Yang relies on his deep historical knowledge to devise unexpected strategies and tactics, causing Reinhard no end of trouble. For Yang the past is an excellent resource to use in current problems, as new generations repeat the mistakes of their predecessors in an endless cycle of violence.


Yes, I do have an opposing philosophy. Strategies to a degree and tactics in their entirety are dependent on the means by which war is waged. For example, it is a very recent phenomenon that fighting might be limited by the availability of fuel and ammunition. Also as the scale of armies grow they can no longer commandeer food and lodgings around the areas of engagement these things now need to be carried or supplied by the military themselves, logistics is a massive part of modern warfare and this has lead to most military posts being non combatant. Imagine how many service personnel it takes to put one jet fighter in the sky. In the sci-fi universe of infinite power and ammunition these things mean nothing but in real life if you can't carry enough provisions to feed yourself power your equipment and arm your weapons you're dead on the battlefield. The soldier with the last bullet wins.
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Posted 4/10/18 , edited 4/10/18
Pretty decent episode. I can safely say that while not as good as the Artland OVA, it's a pretty good adaptation of the original novels.
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Posted 4/10/18 , edited 4/10/18
So I've never seen any of this series, but I really really want to. MAL says that this is basically the order you should watch them in if you're first getting into it (and want to start from the beginning) -

https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=487887

does this look correct to those familiar with the originals? If so, does anyone have any advice on where to find "spiral labyrinth", etc?

I wanna watch the remake too, hope my post isn't taking away from the original post. That's not my intention! I just want more info about the series. I found this art book in a thrift store a while back and it makes the whole thing look incredible.
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