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Philosophical Zombies
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Posted 2/25/08
ahh, and then you fall into the spiral of conscience thought vs. preception.
Posted 2/25/08

MidnightZorya wrote:
Just some people don't have such an elevated level of imagination as others.
This elevated level of imagination is called "creative imagination" and is proof of an activity of "pure mind".

I thought you said it was provable that some people couldn't imagine or something. So how are you going to prove that one person is "more imaginative" than another? How would one distinguish imagination from random nonsense?

The only objective test that I can think of is that we ask people to write down 100 random numbers, then run some entropy test against them. The people who come up with the most random random numbers are capable of thinking less deterministically. Whether that makes you creative, I'm not sure.



Pure mind involves also the consciousness, being conscious, totally aware of what we are trying to imagine, having a very strong control over the mind and consciousness. Pure spirit awareness.
Since the mind is of physical origin, created out of someone's brain(mind functions). Mind functions come and go. Consciousness remains unchanged no matter what the mind functions produce or do not produce.

I would dispute that. Consciousness is significantly altered if certain regions of the brain aren't working.



Which would mean that this "creative imagination" is mainly/only based on pure consciousness.

I'm not convinced of that, but it's possible that "free will" is a function of consciousness which is a form of nondeterminism, so "randomness" might come from consciousness. I tend to think it's related to more mundane brain functions though.




Besides that, to counter your argument about someone who is unable to imagine anything, that he/she would be unable to form sentences and speak.
I will use following example: Lets say that someone who is unable to imagine anything(I suppose that imagination involves a lot of intelligence), but has a very good memory, he could learn every single sentence by heart. He could use his ears and memorise other people talking(which is very probable, everyone has parents...and parents talk and form sentences..), so he saw, heard from small on people forming sentences, and speak. He saw in what situations this sentences were used. That would mean that he is actually very able to use sentences and talk. But I have my doubts about his capability to form correct/understandable sentences. It would be very probable that his reactions and sentences might be sometimes inadequate to the given situations, since he lacks the creative imagination to use the memorised words and sentences in an intelligible way. But that doesn't mean that he is unable to form sentences, people would just call him mentally challenged/stupid/slow. <.<

Well, he'd still have to pick which sentences to memorize and recite. In any case this sounds sort of like the "Chinese Room" scenario with regards to tests for computer consciousness.

I believe that even cats can imagine things. For example, I once had a cat that kept prying a button off of my wife's humidifier. Every time I put it back on he would come back and pry it off. Now, it must have taken some level of imagination to look at the button starting from nothing, then decide that it was separate from the larger object, and that it might be possible to pull/pry it loose (especially after it didn't work the first time, and took several attempts to finally remove it.) Not all cats will do this, suggesting that prying buttons off of humidifiers isn't an instinct.

If nothing else I think that we're all "imaging" a certain "virtual reality" around ourselves based on our senses all the time anyway (such as objects in our peripheral vision which our rods and cones can't really sense fully.)
Posted 3/19/09
i like that term. so your sying you want people to be orginal? or that you want people to just seem more aware?
that way i say life is a dream, i can tell!
Posted 1/3/10
User has nuked, but anyone is welcomed to recreate.
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