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THEY ARE NOT REAL MUSLIMS A.K.A. "The No True Scotsman Fallacy"
duh
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Posted 3/3/08 , edited 4/18/08

sorelin wrote:

Wow!!
Another muslim bashing thread.

*shakes head in shame*


Not entirely true. There's some validity to the argument here.

From what I understand, the American Muslims who say "terrorists aren't true Muslims" don't have any more claim on the title "true Muslim" as many terrorists do. The lifestyle of a "true muslim" is defined by sharia laws and the koran, which states that martrydom in jihad is an automatic ticket into heaven.

All it takes is an Osama-bin-laden or such to declare jihad on America to convince true Muslims that blowing themselves up and killing Americans is a very wise choice to erase their sins and secure a spot in heaven. It is the fact that they are true Muslims that makes them so willing to do it.
duh
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Posted 3/3/08 , edited 4/18/08

JuliaRhys wrote:
It's quite true that the "no true scotsman" fallacy is used all the time to excuse certain behavior. however, understand that you can dismiss certain people as not being true to a religion without commiting the fallacy.

if a person claims they are muslim yet fail to follow the pillars of muslim belief, you can probably assume that they're not really muslim. people who claim to be christians but fail to follow biblical principals are probably not christians either.

after all, not everyone is what they claim to be.


True enough, but this is still a relevant issue concerning Islam and terrorism. The Muslims who condemn the terrorists are mainly American Muslims. If you look at the Sharia law that governs the Islamic lifestyle, American Muslims are the ones that follow it's rules the LEAST. If anything, the terrorists are the "true Muslims" because their willingness to blow themselves up in jihad is fueled by a deep and solid belief in the Koran which states that martyrdom is a guaranteed ticket into heaven (the only guaranteed ticket I know of for Islam). Muslims who have sinned a lot realize that martyrdom may be their only hope of getting into heaven because martyrdom erases your sins. Terrorist leaders exploit this.

The same can happen with Christianity, but it's easier to use the Bible to counter argue religious warfare and bombing of abortion clinics, than it is to use the Koran to counter argue suicide bombings.
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Posted 3/3/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


OptimusGatts wrote:

being extremist as to what?


You know when people try to say bombers etc are not real muslims or whatever. Its annoys the fuck out of me.


when i hear people say that such people are not true muslims i was given to believe that this was a question of differences in interpretations of the koran and whatnot, a bit like a greek orthodox person might say a catholic was not a true Christian
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Posted 3/3/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


OptimusGatts wrote:

being extremist as to what?


You know when people try to say bombers etc are not real muslims or whatever. Its annoys the fuck out of me.


People do say that sometimes. But they probably just want to get the point across that you can't generalise extremists as atypical Muslim behaviour, but failed.
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Posted 3/3/08 , edited 4/18/08
True or not true muslim, there's a shit layer of people on top of every group of people.
I don't see why this should be applied to the muslim group only.
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Posted 3/3/08 , edited 4/18/08

duh wrote:


JuliaRhys wrote:
It's quite true that the "no true scotsman" fallacy is used all the time to excuse certain behavior. however, understand that you can dismiss certain people as not being true to a religion without commiting the fallacy.

if a person claims they are muslim yet fail to follow the pillars of muslim belief, you can probably assume that they're not really muslim. people who claim to be christians but fail to follow biblical principals are probably not christians either.

after all, not everyone is what they claim to be.


True enough, but this is still a relevant issue concerning Islam and terrorism. The Muslims who condemn the terrorists are mainly American Muslims. If you look at the Sharia law that governs the Islamic lifestyle, American Muslims are the ones that follow it's rules the LEAST. If anything, the terrorists are the "true Muslims" because their willingness to blow themselves up in jihad is fueled by a deep and solid belief in the Koran which states that martyrdom is a guaranteed ticket into heaven (the only guaranteed ticket I know of for Islam). Muslims who have sinned a lot realize that martyrdom may be their only hope of getting into heaven because martyrdom erases your sins. Terrorist leaders exploit this.

The same can happen with Christianity, but it's easier to use the Bible to counter argue religious warfare and bombing of abortion clinics, than it is to use the Koran to counter argue suicide bombings.


Actually I'm sure all non-extremist Muslims want to make that claim. I think one reason for this is because of different interpretations of the Koran by these varying groups. Due to different interpretations (which every religious writing can be accused to have a problem with), the extremists see themselves as true Muslims and the non-extremists see themselves as true Muslims as well with the other group being "untrue". Christians may also do that in an attempt to separate themselves from other Christians. This is only an issue because of the acts of one of these groups. For all practical purposes we can actually say they are two rather distinct groups because the teachings they put into practice are rather different.
duh
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Posted 3/3/08 , edited 4/18/08

cardmage wrote:
Actually I'm sure all non-extremist Muslims want to make that claim. I think one reason for this is because of different interpretations of the Koran by these varying groups. Due to different interpretations (which every religious writing can be accused to have a problem with), the extremists see themselves as true Muslims and the non-extremists see themselves as true Muslims as well with the other group being "untrue". Christians may also do that in an attempt to separate themselves from other Christians. This is only an issue because of the acts of one of these groups. For all practical purposes we can actually say they are two rather distinct groups because the teachings they put into practice are rather different.


I think I see what you're saying. I understand that extremists and non-extremists are different enough to be considered separate groups. I'm interested in this topic because I don't know enough about Islam to know which group has the more valid claim to being "true" Muslims... or if both groups are equally valid.

I think what I'd like to hear is a non-extreme Muslim explain the part of the Koran that encourages martyrdom. Is there anything in the Koran defining what martyrdom is? Do terrorist bombings count? Who has the authority to declare jihad... etc.... Those are particulars about Islamic terrorism that I don't hear explanations for. If the defense is just a blanket "no True Muslim would..." then it's falling into the fallacy.

As a Christian, I'm much more familiar with Christian texts, so I know for myself that bombing abortion clinics and hating homosexuals doesn't make any Biblical sense.

In short, what I'm lacking is an understanding of the Koran. Based on what I know so far, it sounds like terrorists really are justified by Islam. Is this the case?
Posted 1/3/10 , edited 4/28/16
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