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Post Reply The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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Posted 2/28/08 , edited 2/28/08
The very first thing I'm going to do is post "The 13 Articles of Faith". Joseph Smith Jr. was asked by a newspaper to explain what this "new" religion believed in, and this was part of his reply. We believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet...just like Moses, or Abraham, or any of the others. As such, we believe that his words are worthy of being recorded. After Joseph Smith died, another (Brigham Young...you may have heard of him, he has several uni's named after him) took his place. When Brigham died, another, and another, and another. We believe that these are the very last days before the Second Coming of Christ, and as such, we need a prophet to guide us more than any other time.

So:
1. We believe in God the Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are first: faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, second: repentance, third: baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, fourth: laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophesy, and by the laying on of hands, by those who are in authority to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophesy, revelation, visions, healings, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God, so far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Isreal and restoration of the ten tribes; that Zion (the New Jeruasalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth and that the earth will be renewed and receive it's paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we folow the admonition of Paul - We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure alll things. If there is anythign virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith.

This is a very good starting point. We also believe that our spirits were created before the earth was made. We call this the pre-existence, and we lived there with God. Heavenly Father came to us, and explained that we could progress no more without physical bodies, and we needed a plan for our mortal lives. Lucifer came first and presented a plan whereby we would all come to earth, receive bodies, and be compelled to perfection. There would be no sin, no trials, no loss...every single soul would return to God, and we would all live in the Celestial Kingdom (Heaven) for eternity. All the glory for this plan would, of course, go to him. Christ also presented a plan. We would come to earth, we would be tried, tempted and tested. We would suffer pain, sorrow and death. We would also experince joy, happiness, and we would live by faith. He presented himself as a Saviour, to come and atone for our mistakes, and act as intermediary between us and God...tempering justice with mercy. A great battle ensued. A battle of words, of persuasion, even of bribery. Lucifer managed to convince a full third of the Host of Heaven (us) to follow his plan. Because God is fair, he allowed us the right to choose, and those how were ...out-voted...were cast from Heaven. They are now the minions of Hell that tempt, try, and terrorize this world today. Lucifer still believes that if he can turn enough of us here, then he still has a chance of winning.

Adam and Eve were designed to "fail" in the Garden of Eden. God gave two commandments in the Garden of Eden...Not to eat of the fruit, but also to multiply and replenish the earth. They could not keep both at the same time. In the Garden, they lived in innocence, and did not concieve. Lucifer tempted Eve, trying to spoil that plan of God, but she knew that the only way for the Plan of Salvation (The Great Plan of Happiness) to come to pass was to partake of the fruit, and be cast off from the presence of God. We look at her as a hero (yes, the men do, too). It must have been terribly difficult to take that step, even if she were beguiled. Thus, they were cast out of the Garden, and began the race of man.

There is so much more to add, such as where the Book of Mormon came from, and how we fit in with the Church Christ established, as well as how we reconcile with the Old Testament.

I'll leave this here for now...but I welcome questions.
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Posted 3/9/08
Does the Church of the Later Day saints teach anything about purgatory?
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*Heavy sigh* Okay...I touched on the premortal life, now I guess it's time for Post-Mortal. All those who kept their "first estate", that is, they didn't follow Satan in the Pre-existence, came to earth and received bodies. That pretty much, in and of itself, is a big deal. After we die, there are several things that happen.

-We don't believe that we will be immediately judged, and sent to Heaven or Hell (I use those terms loosely, and I prolly won't use them again...they are not "our" terms for these states). There is a sorting between the wicked and the righteous into states of "Paradise" and "Spirit Prison". A) Paradise: this is where the righteous go. These are people who tried to follow Christ (providing they knew about Him), and those who were generally good. It is a place of peace, and rest, but not of lounging about doing nothing for several thousand years. They work to bring to pass the Kingdom of God, from the other side. It is still a time of learning and growth. b) Spirit Prison: This is where those who mad...BAD...choices go. It is not a physical prison (pointless, since they have no bodies), but more a state of mind. They are consumed with the anguish of the things they did while on Earth. They are still trapped by their addictions (since most addictions are as much or even more psychological than they are physical), with no means of asuaging their cravings. They are tormented by the grief they have caused others, and guilt for not keeping their second estate (remember the "first estate", life before mortality? Well, then, the "second estate" would be ...mortality). I, personally haven't been to Spirit Prison, so I can't tell you what it is like, but I'm not too keen to find out either. It would be akin to "Hell"... it is a place of anguish and suffering beyond my desire to comprehend.

Now...remember that I worship a loving Father. Before sending us to earth, he placed a veil accross our memories, so that we would have to rely on faith. He knew that we would make mistakes, and that some of us would simply not follow Him...which is why He arranged for the Atonement in the first place. We talked a little about the keys of Hell, and this is where they come into play. I mentioned that the Atonement was for ALL mankind, not just those who receive it here on Earth. On the other side, those who have gone to paradise (or some of them, at least) are taking the message of the Atonement, and God's love to those in Prison. Our Father wants ALL His children to receive the Gospel. He wants to get as many of His Children home as possible. He will give us every chance to repent. It's just a lot harder on the other side. Now...there are limits. If you have received the Gospel here on earth, and reject it, then you don't get the same chances in Prison. If you willfully follow Satan here, then you don't get the same chances. Only Christ decides how much is enough. We only believe that the work progresses there, the same as here.

- After the Second Coming, and the earth is cleansed, and all of mortality is finished, then there will come a final judgement. This is where Christ and His Counsel will decide what happens to us. There are three Kingdoms that we could be divided into, and one that is NOT a kingdom.
A) Telestial Kingdom: This is the one farthest from Heavenly Father. (Tele=distance). I've heard a number of things about who goes here...my guess is those who were wicked, but not PURELY evil. This Kingdom is ruled by the Holy Ghost, and is said to be amazingly beautiful.
B) Terrestrial Kingdom: This is the middle Kingdom (No, not China) (Terra=earth) This is the place for believers and generally good people. Also for Latter-day Saints who have not been as diligent as they should. This is one description, but no one knows for sure, since it's really Christ's choice, in the end. Christ rules this Kingdom.
C) Celestial Kingdom (Celes=Heaven) This is the highest degree of Glory. This is for the most faithful of all God's children. This is where we learn to use our Father's powers of creation, and strive to become like Him. It is ruled by the Father Himself, and ...sorry to say...we believe that it is only for the most righteous Latter-day Saints. Not because we are exclusionists, but because there are certain things that are needed to enter, and only the LDS church has them.

*sigh*... I wish I could explain this without sounding "holier than thou"...you know me well enough to know that is never my intention. We believe that certain truths were lost from the Gospel, either by mis-translation, or by direct ommision from the prevailing religion (Catholicism). Some of it was mis-understanding, some was fear, some was peer-pressure (the ideas weren't popular), and so they were left out. If they had not been left out, then the truth would never have had to be restored by Joseph Smith almost 2000 years later...it would still have been on the earth. Unfortunately, much was lost. This is why Latter-day Saints believe that they have the only true church on the earth today. What was lost was restored. Unfortunately, very few people want to listen to what we are so desprately trying to share with them. We are not keeping what we have to ourselves. We are not meeting behind locked doors, jealously guarding what we know. We want all of God's children to have a share of the fullness that we possess. It is free to anyone who asks.






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Posted 3/12/08
Don’t worry about offending me Kim. You’re welcome to your beliefs, and while I don’t share some of them, I respect all of them. Anyway, in my religious opinion, most of the bible is irrelevant. All that matters is love-and through it, faith.

That’s my opinion. Well, the Church of the Later Day Saints really does have an interesting perspective. To be honest, they’re more varied from “classical,” and “orthodox,” Christianity than I thought. Again, that’s all detail. Well, if your view turns out to be right, I wonder where I’ll turn out? Sucks, but I think I’d get tossed to the furthest kingdom. *Sigh* Well, that’s more motivation to try and improve myself, right? XD

Well, I was just curious, because I found out that C.S Lewis believes in Purgatory-and I respect him as one of the most brilliant philosophers and Christian minds in the history of mankind. I never much gave Purgatory a lot of thought, just knew it was a place the Catholics believed in. My church(es) had never spoken for or against it. When I read “The Screw Tape Letter” and “Between Heaven and Hell,” I realized that Lewis believed, and I’ve grown curious ever since.

Right now I’m agnostic about it, I want to do some research.
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I LOVED!! the Screwtape Letters...I found them to be insightful, provocative, and thoroughly enjoyable. C.S. Lewis was a genius, and one of the few non-LDS writers frequently quoted by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. (Wordsworth is another).

*First Presidency: If you go back to the Articles of Faith, you find one that talks about "Prophets, Apostles, Pastors, Teachers, Evengelists, and so forth". The President of our Church is recognised as a Prophet, and carries that title. We try not to over-use it, as it is a sacred title, and usually call him the "President" instead. The current incumbent in that office is President Thomas S. Monson. He has two counsellors who help him in the administration of the Church...they are the 1st and 2nd Counsellors. It is patterned after the "Original" First Presidency (God, the Eternal Father, His son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost)...and it filters down through all the organization of the whole church. Not long ago, I was the First Counsellor in the Primary for my individual Ward unit.

*Quorum of the Twelve: Like "Prophet", "Apostle" is another sacred title that we do not like to over-use. We have 12 men who carry the title Apostle, and together, they make the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, or the Quorum of the Twelve. In church hierarchy, they are directly below the First Presidency. These 15 men work together to administer in all the affairs of the Church, and nothing is done without unanimous approval. That is the only way to be sure that they are acting as God wants them to, and not as their own thoughts would direct them. This includes all Church publications, the calling ("electing" if you will) of new leaders, and secular organization (buildings, finances, etc.)

These are the only "paid" positions in the Church, and even that is more a stipend, since most of these men are retired and have independent income. These men are paid because they literally give every waking moment to the church, and have no time for employment. NO OTHER church position is paid. We used to pay our building custodians, but they have changed that system, and now the work is done by the individual members on a rotation/volunteer roster. We do have educators through the CES (Church Educational System), but those are teaching positions, and they are not church "callings". They are paid by the CES, from tuition fees and other sources of income for the CES.

In the case of the Screwtape Letters, I would guess that the "Purgatory" that is mentioned would probably be like "Spirit Prison". Keep in mind that this book is a novelization of certain ideas, and not necessarily completely true. Also keep in mind that there is a disclaimer at the beginning of the book...since it is written by a "demon", we must remember that not everything he says is trustworthy (although, I found it to be fairly reliablem myself). 8)

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Posted 3/14/08

kimmm6 wrote:

I LOVED!! the Screwtape Letters...I found them to be insightful, provocative, and thoroughly enjoyable. C.S. Lewis was a genius, and one of the few non-LDS writers frequently quoted by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. (Wordsworth is another).

In the case of the Screwtape Letters, I would guess that the "Purgatory" that is mentioned would probably be like "Spirit Prison". Keep in mind that this book is a novelization of certain ideas, and not necessarily completely true. Also keep in mind that there is a disclaimer at the beginning of the book...since it is written by a "demon", we must remember that not everything he says is trustworthy (although, I found it to be fairly reliablem myself). 8)



Well, Lewis was gravely disappointed in those letters. He considered them one of his greatest failures. He had intended for the book to be composed of letters streaming back-and-forth between a Guardian Angel and a Demon. However, he couldn’t. Lewis was forced to give up, for he couldn’t meet his own expectations where the angel was involved. Playing “devil,” or “demon,” is easy. Radiating with enlightenment, however, is not. He wanted his angel to do just that.

I don’t believe C.S Lewis was a genius either, not even close; moreover, I think he’d deny that title himself. C.S Lewis wasn’t brilliant, he was wise. Lewis knew how to do something that most of us cannot even come close to rivaling. He let God work through him. I can offer up debate for religion anytime, but Lewis was never once cowed, never once beaten, outspoken, rivaled. Yet, he never called himself a revolutionary, or a genius, or even an intellectual. Lewis simply let God work through him.

-That- is why I respect Lewis’ words to so great an extent. None the less, he was merely a Human, and Human’s can be mistaken. I place my trust not in man. I don’t believe in established religion or church-in my opinion, these are the enterprises of men-not God.

Well, whatever the case, Lewis -did- believe in purgatory. While his belief may clash with my beliefs or the teachings of your church, they were his belief. Again, he’s only man, I’m not devaluing the church. I do, however, personally feel the obligation to stress a certain degree of independence. Unity is good, but when you become to fervent for the church you merely distract yourself from God.

In my opinion one should submit themselves to God and what they feel he is telling them, first through personal revelation, second through the scriptures, and third through the church.
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Posted 3/14/08
Okay, perhaps "genius" is strong...but I believe that in his field he was a genius. And, he most certainly was an intellectual (did he not teach at ...Cambridge, I believe, with Tolkien?...they don't let idiots become profs at world renouned unis...humble men, yes, but not flaming idiots). He was more perspicacious.

I would like to read Mere Christianity, but I'm not near book stores anymore. My book list is getting really long...I'll need a fortune and another life to get them all done.
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kimmm6 wrote:

Okay, perhaps "genius" is strong...but I believe that in his field he was a genius. And, he most certainly was an intellectual (did he not teach at ...Cambridge, I believe, with Tolkien?...they don't let idiots become profs at world renouned unis...humble men, yes, but not flaming idiots). He was more perspicacious.

I would like to read Mere Christianity, but I'm not near book stores anymore. My book list is getting really long...I'll need a fortune and another life to get them all done.


Yes, I’ve wanted to read “Mere Christianity” and “God at the Docks” for ages. Whenever I get around to it I’ll order them. I also HIGHLY recommend you read Peter Kreeft’s “Between Heaven and Hell.”

A glance at the book: On November 22,1963, three great men died within a few hours of each other: C. S. Lewis, John F. Kennedy, Alduous Huxley. All three believed, in different ways, that death was not the end of human life. Supposed they were right, and supposed they met after death. How might the conversation go?

That was stolen from the back of the book. It’s really amazing. The entire thing is written as a dialogue. For example:


Kennedy: In other words, you give up your mind to the church.
Lewis: No, for two reasons. Not my mind first of all but my will, and not to the church first of all but to God. But the God to whom I say, “They will be done” replies, “It is my will that you believe what I have revealed to you.”


Just two random lines taken from it. The book is an easy and quick, but utterly enlightening, provocative, educational, and simply enjoyable read. It gives a perfect example of Socratic conversation, while citing scriptures, and shedding beams of light into eastern religions. It gives you glance at modern humanistic Christology-and for me, helps strengthen the faith.

“Faith Seeking understanding,” is how Kreeft puts it. That’s how I live my life. I believe in God, in Jesus Christ as the lord and savior. Perhaps it was science that opened my eyes to the possibility, but it’s faith that brings me to God. Still, science and logic do galvanize my beliefs; moreover, it’s just plain interesting-and, on top of this, I truly want to know and understand God-plus, lastly, the bible tells us that ignorance is a plague. We’re encouraged therein to learn, to research.

“Between Heaven and Hell,” is a great book because it’s not only spiritually enlightening, but secularly educational, and-again-flatly entertaining.

I ordered it on the internet, really cheap, got it for like…$5 US dollars.

Well, anyway, back to the topic at hand…

Yes, Lewis was an intellectual in my opinion. He, however, didn’t identify himself as that. He -was- humble. Alas, he was a genius. Just not in the common sort. Like you said, he was a genius in his forte. That is to say, he was a genius at communicating with God.
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Posted 3/19/08
I just re-read "Screwtape Letters", followed by a long talk with Heavenly Father...I'm so glad He's more patient than I am, or I'd still be smarting from the "bum-spank" I got. Need to shape up, and do better.
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Posted 6/26/08
dont you people also believe that having multiple wives are ok and that Jesus was actually borin in america or somethingl ike that
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No. We do not practive Polygamy (multiple wives). There was a short time when this was true, but we also believe in obeying the law (first post, point number 12). When Utah petitioned to join the Union, they stopped the practice of plural marriages, because it was illegal. There was a splinter group before this, formed shortly after the death of Joseph Smith Jr., called the Reorganized, or Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (RLDS), and they still practice plural marriages. They are not, in any way, affiliated with us.

No...Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem. That has never been in contest. We do, however, believe that Jesus visited the Americas AFTER his death and resurrection, to teach the people there.
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Posted 6/27/08
I don't get it how did Jesus go to America

and wasnt this religion proven false I was discussing the southpark episode in my history class and my teacher started cracking up saying yeah and what makes it funny is because thats what really happened

btw if you didnt watch that episode this is how it goes

Joseph Smith goes to the printing press and said that God is unhappy with the current Bible and that God wanted him to make a new one. He said he found something made of gold ( i forgot what it was) and nobody could see it except him, and what was written on that golden thing would be the new bible. So he turns around and the printing press guy writes down everything he says. After he is done, he gathers up the written stuff and takes it home to his wife. His wife being suspicious of Smith takes the written letters and says to go get another copy of it and see if they both match up. So the printing press guy goes back to Smith and tells him what happened. Smith said o no God is angry now, and he is telling me that there should be another version now.

Tel me if this is what really happened cuz ( or something similar, it was made by southpark after all) if it did sory to say but your religion was kinda proven false
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Okay...Joseph Smith History, 101: it's gonna require at least a little open-mindedness, and you know that if you flame me, we are done, right? This is a world religion thread, and every religion here is going to claim some pretty fantastic and (quite frankly, unbeleiveable) things.

Joseph was searching for the right religion. He was a strong Christian, but was having trouble knowing which church was true. When he was 14, he was reading the bible, and read "if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not" ... generally, if you wanna know, just ask, and I'll tell ya. So...he asked. God's reply was, uhm...well, in person. God and Jesus appeared to Joseph and told him that none of the religions were true. They had truth in them, but none were complete, or wholly true, that they had been corrupted by the thinking of man. A short while later he was visited by Moroni, an angel. Moroni showed Joseph (I'm cutting time here...it wasn't immediate) a place where a record was kept of a people that lived in the Americas about 1200 years earlier. These records were made of gold, because it was abundant, and maleable. It could be hammered into thin pages, and easly engraved, but would last longer than "'paper" type products. This is the "gold something" you were referring to. Joseph was instructed to remove the plates from their hiding place, and began to translate them, through the power of God. It's not as if they "couldn't be seen" by any one else, but we are talking about a really big chunk of gold here, and many people would be consumed with greed to see it. I'm sure you understand that. Only hearing about it was enough to cause many to try and steal it from Joseph. This book was translated, and published, but it was never "the new bible". It is a companion to the bible, "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". When Joseph was translating the pages, he gave several to a friend after much badgering, and against his better judgement. The friend lost the pages. This is what you are referring to in the Southpark Ep. God was angry, not because of the loss of the pages, but because Joseph did not listen when he was told not to give the pages to his friend to begin with. There was no "new version" of anything printed. Joseph resumed translation (after a period of repentance) from where the pages left off.

Nothing here "proves [my] religion false". Even those who created "evidence" against the church have never been able to "prove" anything. The truthfulness of the LDS church is something that must be proven (or disproven) in your own heart...the same as any other religion.

Before we go hieing off on a "Book of Mormon" tangent, and whether it replaces the bible, or any such thing...two points:

1) We believe the bible to be the word of God, so far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. 8th Article of Faith

2) "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him." James 1:5...the scripture that sent Joseph to ask of God which church he should join, and led to all that followed came from the Bible.
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kimmm6 wrote:

Okay...Joseph Smith History, 101: it's gonna require at least a little open-mindedness, and you know that if you flame me, we are done, right? This is a world religion thread, and every religion here is going to claim some pretty fantastic and (quite frankly, unbeleiveable) things.

Joseph was searching for the right religion. He was a strong Christian, but was having trouble knowing which church was true. When he was 14, he was reading the bible, and read "if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not" ... generally, if you wanna know, just ask, and I'll tell ya. So...he asked. God's reply was, uhm...well, in person. God and Jesus appeared to Joseph and told him that none of the religions were true. They had truth in them, but none were complete, or wholly true, that they had been corrupted by the thinking of man. A short while later he was visited by Moroni, an angel. Moroni showed Joseph (I'm cutting time here...it wasn't immediate) a place where a record was kept of a people that lived in the Americas about 1200 years earlier. These records were made of gold, because it was abundant, and maleable. It could be hammered into thin pages, and easly engraved, but would last longer than "'paper" type products. This is the "gold something" you were referring to. Joseph was instructed to remove the plates from their hiding place, and began to translate them, through the power of God. It's not as if they "couldn't be seen" by any one else, but we are talking about a really big chunk of gold here, and many people would be consumed with greed to see it. I'm sure you understand that. Only hearing about it was enough to cause many to try and steal it from Joseph. This book was translated, and published, but it was never "the new bible". It is a companion to the bible, "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". When Joseph was translating the pages, he gave several to a friend after much badgering, and against his better judgement. The friend lost the pages. This is what you are referring to in the Southpark Ep. God was angry, not because of the loss of the pages, but because Joseph did not listen when he was told not to give the pages to his friend to begin with. There was no "new version" of anything printed. Joseph resumed translation (after a period of repentance) from where the pages left off.

Nothing here "proves [my] religion false". Even those who created "evidence" against the church have never been able to "prove" anything. The truthfulness of the LDS church is something that must be proven (or disproven) in your own heart...the same as any other religion.

Before we go hieing off on a "Book of Mormon" tangent, and whether it replaces the bible, or any such thing...two points:

1) We believe the bible to be the word of God, so far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. 8th Article of Faith

2) "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him." James 1:5...the scripture that sent Joseph to ask of God which church he should join, and led to all that followed came from the Bible.



ok where are the gold plates now then

and do you guys still believe that the original Bible is ok?
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