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Post Reply How do you view homosexuals?
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Posted 4/2/08 , edited 4/18/08
Homosexuality if wrong but we should not condemn homosexuals.
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Posted 4/2/08 , edited 4/18/08
God loves everybody but hates the sin that they are commiting. That's what i am trying to say.
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Posted 11/6/08
I just think of them as friends, but I know it's wrong. It's against the bible, so it's against me.
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Posted 11/15/08
Ahhhh an interestign subject. I've been waiting for this one.
Truly and honestly in my opinion. They're strong people. Everyoen has their reasons. Yes it's a sin and God one will punish them. But,....it's their burden to bare. They'll have enough to deal with in the after life. Do we need to make it harder? I reallllly hate people that are homophobic. Homosexual are no different then us. They just think a little different.
I have several firends that are liek that. I love them all the same. And beleive me it makes me mad when someone says somethign wrong about them.
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Posted 11/22/08

whatevero9 wrote:

God loves everybody but hates the sin that they are commiting. That's what i am trying to say. :)


I'm sorry but it seems that you have no idea what sound theology is. In many ways, the Bible condemns not only the sins of peoples past and present, but he condemns the person with no unambiguous terms. I have to say that God hates the sin and well as the sinner. I suggest you read in the language of Romans 9.
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Posted 11/25/08

jmartinez83 wrote:


whatevero9 wrote:

God loves everybody but hates the sin that they are commiting. That's what i am trying to say. :)


I'm sorry but it seems that you have no idea what sound theology is. In many ways, the Bible condemns not only the sins of peoples past and present, but he condemns the person with no unambiguous terms. I have to say that God hates the sin and well as the sinner. I suggest you read in the language of Romans 9.


That makes sense, considering how Jesus, who had burdened all the sin of the world on his shoulders, cried out to God, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

John 3:16 tells me that God loved the world to the point where he sent his Son to die on the cross, that we may have eternal life if we believe in Him. Definitely, God hates sin, to the point where He can take no part with man who is of sin. But at the same time, God made it so that man who is of sin can have his name written in the book of life through Christ alone. So you're right whatevero9, God loves everybody, but God hates sin and the sin that is in man.
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Posted 11/26/08

soon_doo_bu wrote:


jmartinez83 wrote:


whatevero9 wrote:

God loves everybody but hates the sin that they are commiting. That's what i am trying to say. :)


I'm sorry but it seems that you have no idea what sound theology is. In many ways, the Bible condemns not only the sins of peoples past and present, but he condemns the person with no unambiguous terms. I have to say that God hates the sin and well as the sinner. I suggest you read in the language of Romans 9.


That makes sense, considering how Jesus, who had burdened all the sin of the world on his shoulders, cried out to God, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

John 3:16 tells me that God loved the world to the point where he sent his Son to die on the cross, that we may have eternal life if we believe in Him. Definitely, God hates sin, to the point where He can take no part with man who is of sin. But at the same time, God made it so that man who is of sin can have his name written in the book of life through Christ alone. So you're right whatevero9, God loves everybody, but God hates sin and the sin that is in man.


You got to be kidding me! You call this an answer? I recognize that there are plenty of Scriptures that point to God hating actions of men, e.g., gambling, lying, despising justice, etc. However, in the Psalms David writes (11:5) "The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence." Here David writes that the person (God) hates the objective (those who are the wicked). So no, God does not just love everyone. If you properly interpret the John chapter 3, you'll find that the context says that God sent his son for those who believe (the verb is in the aorist tense: those who are believing). All these ideas arise from a false interpretation of Scripture. I beg you revise your interpretative methods.
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Posted 11/26/08
Here's an example from the Catechism that my Church subscribes to that best outlines the doctrine of the elect:
Westminster Shorter Catechism (WSC), Question 20: Did God leave all mankind to perish in the estate of sin and misery?
Answer: God having, out of his mere good pleasure, from all eternity, elected some to everlasting life,[1] did enter into a covenant of grace, to deliver them out of the estate of sin and misery, and to bring them into an estate of salvation by a Redeemer.[2]

1. Eph. 1:4
2. Rom. 3:21-22
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Posted 11/26/08 , edited 11/26/08
OK Guys and Gals. The thread tital is "How do you view homosexuals?", Not how God views it. In letters from Paul, he stated we are to hate the sin but not the siner. We are not to judge the unsaved, that is not our job at this point. Come on read your Bible..do not rely on any thing that is the work of man.
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Posted 11/26/08

whatevero9 wrote:

Homosexuality if wrong but we should not condemn homosexuals.


You got it sort of rigth read my post...
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Posted 11/27/08 , edited 11/28/08
I think we can have a constructive criticism here. If we are going to allow the Scriptures to speak to our culture (not vice-versa), then we need to lay aside our presuppositions that misconstrue the proper interpretation of Scripture. In the Psalms, David himself states that he hates those (objective) who hate God. Ratman21 responded that we should look at it unilaterally. Well let's look at it unilaterally then (that is, let's look at it from a person-to-person purview). We know already--by plain reason of the Scriptures I have supplied--that God hates not only the sin but also the sinner (Psalms 11:5). How should we view the homosexual? Well, man is created in God's image, however marred that image may be.


Paul writes, (Romans 1:26-27 ESV)
(26) For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
(27) and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

This passage has to do with lesbianism in particular. We can, however, draw a similar line of reasoning that leads us to conclude the same with gay couples, since the leading premise deals with same-sex relations. We can draw this line:

Paul writes about lesbians,
Lesbians practice homosexual sins,
Paul writes about homosexual sins.

What does Paul say about this sin? He writes that God did fully give them over to their lusts and a depraved mind. The language Paul uses here is extremely violent. Just look at the adjectives and verbs he uses to describe their abject servitude to their desires. It even appears as if they have no choice after this "gave them up" clause.

John Calvin, in his commentary on Romans, writes,

God therefore gave them up, &c. After having introduced as it were an intervening clause, he returns to what he had before stated respecting the judgment of God: and he brings, as the first example, the dreadful crime of unnatural lust; and it hence appears that they not only abandoned themselves to beastly lusts, but became degraded beyond the bests, since they reversed the whole order of nature.[1]
Whether you guys want to argue authority in church history (teachings of "man"), that is another story, but the Scriptures only point to plain meaning of the text, as Calvin justly points out.

But how do we justify the teaching of love with David's words?

Psalms 139:21 ESV
(21) Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
.


This is where the ancient art of prudence comes in. Those who hate the Law of God will die and parish. However, God is just to give life to the elect and we ought to pray for them. We love them in a Christian manner, but we do not consider them beloved as children of God. They still have the marred image of God in them, and in that way we love them. Though they carry the indignation of God's wrath and hatred (vertical), we are to love them (horizontal).

This is a hard pill to swallow, but we need to let the Scriptures teach us, not the other way around. I am prepared to answer any and all questions.
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Posted 11/27/08 , edited 11/27/08

jmartinez83 wrote:

You got to be kidding me! You call this an answer? I recognize that there are plenty of Scriptures that point to God hating actions of men, e.g., gambling, lying, despising justice, etc. However, in the Psalms David writes (11:5) "The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence." Here David writes that the person (God) hates the objective (those who are the wicked). So no, God does not just love everyone. If you properly interpret the John chapter 3, you'll find that the context says that God sent his son for those who believe (the verb is in the aorist tense: those who are believing). All these ideas arise from a false interpretation of Scripture. I beg you revise your interpretative methods.


I did mention how Jesus said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." in an earlier post. And it does say that "God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." So I do agree with you that God hates the wicked, even for His own Son, Jesus Christ. (I don't know if that's theologically sound, so you might need to correct me jmartinez :D).



jmartinez83 wrote:

This is where the ancient art of prudence comes in. Those who hate the Law of God will die and parish. However, God is just to give life to the elect and we ought to pray for them. We love them in a Christian manner, but we do not consider them beloved as children of God. They still have the marred image of God in them, and in that way we love them. Though they carry the indignation of God's wrath and hatred (vertical), we are to love them (horizontal).

This is a hard pill to swallow, but we need to let the Scriptures teach us, not the other way around. I am prepared to answer any and all questions.


Hm, you are right. We are to love them, but they are still not considered children of God. And as long as they continue to sin, they won't have eternal life. God is ultimately sovereign and He decides what's right and wrong. I think in my case, I always try to put what I think is right into the Word, which totally warps everything in the way I live and the way I see things. You are right to say that God has to teach us through Scripture, not the other way around. Definitely a good reminder, and good rebuke. Thanks
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Posted 12/2/08
I treat homosexuals the same way I treat a non-christian. And thats what they are, being gay is a sin, and thus I keep to that. But I do not condemn them, that is not my place, it is my place only to point out its sin.
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Posted 12/2/08

jmartinez83 wrote:

I think we can have a constructive criticism here. If we are going to allow the Scriptures to speak to our culture (not vice-versa), then we need to lay aside our presuppositions that misconstrue the proper interpretation of Scripture. In the Psalms, David himself states that he hates those (objective) who hate God. Ratman21 responded that we should look at it unilaterally. Well let's look at it unilaterally then (that is, let's look at it from a person-to-person purview). We know already--by plain reason of the Scriptures I have supplied--that God hates not only the sin but also the sinner (Psalms 11:5). How should we view the homosexual? Well, man is created in God's image, however marred that image may be.


Paul writes, (Romans 1:26-27 ESV)
(26) For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
(27) and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

This passage has to do with lesbianism in particular. We can, however, draw a similar line of reasoning that leads us to conclude the same with gay couples, since the leading premise deals with same-sex relations. We can draw this line:

Paul writes about lesbians,
Lesbians practice homosexual sins,
Paul writes about homosexual sins.

What does Paul say about this sin? He writes that God did fully give them over to their lusts and a depraved mind. The language Paul uses here is extremely violent. Just look at the adjectives and verbs he uses to describe their abject servitude to their desires. It even appears as if they have no choice after this "gave them up" clause.

John Calvin, in his commentary on Romans, writes,

God therefore gave them up, &c. After having introduced as it were an intervening clause, he returns to what he had before stated respecting the judgment of God: and he brings, as the first example, the dreadful crime of unnatural lust; and it hence appears that they not only abandoned themselves to beastly lusts, but became degraded beyond the bests, since they reversed the whole order of nature.[1]
Whether you guys want to argue authority in church history (teachings of "man"), that is another story, but the Scriptures only point to plain meaning of the text, as Calvin justly points out.

But how do we justify the teaching of love with David's words?

Psalms 139:21 ESV
(21) Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
.


This is where the ancient art of prudence comes in. Those who hate the Law of God will die and parish. However, God is just to give life to the elect and we ought to pray for them. We love them in a Christian manner, but we do not consider them beloved as children of God. They still have the marred image of God in them, and in that way we love them. Though they carry the indignation of God's wrath and hatred (vertical), we are to love them (horizontal).

This is a hard pill to swallow, but we need to let the Scriptures teach us, not the other way around. I am prepared to answer any and all questions.


anyone else enjoy reading j's posts? just as a side note, he is so thorough and teaches me something new, or alters my perception at the very least, sorry off topic.
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