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A rant about governments in general
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28 / M
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Posted 10/5/07
I am fiercely disloyal to anything except my own convictions. And I'm always right. Top that.
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29 / M / The centroid of a...
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Posted 10/5/07

skygod333 wrote:

critisizing the government can be considered treason. treason is a felony offense. to answer gev's question about obeying the land's law from which you were born, you should follow the law and be loyal to country. i dont see why americans should be raving about the government, especially since at least they enjoy many multitudes of freedoms.


Quite to the contrary sir. It is with our ability to criticize, to judge, that we are able to progress as a human race. For if we are not able to do such a thing, we would not be able to separate the right from the wrong, or what is supposed as right and wrong based upon how much it benefits us.

To regard criticism of the government as treason is something that would hold true in a monarchy or dictatorship, not an open government like democracy. In fact, democracy and criticism go hand in hand, one cannot exist without the other.
Posted 10/5/07

anvoice wrote:

I am fiercely disloyal to anything except my own convictions. And I'm always right. Top that.


well heres where your wrong. your narcissism will bring you down and youll get your coming-to's. dissention is not a quality i like either.
Posted 10/5/07

excalion wrote:


skygod333 wrote:

critisizing the government can be considered treason. treason is a felony offense. to answer gev's question about obeying the land's law from which you were born, you should follow the law and be loyal to country. i dont see why americans should be raving about the government, especially since at least they enjoy many multitudes of freedoms.


Quite to the contrary sir. It is with our ability to criticize, to judge, that we are able to progress as a human race. For if we are not able to do such a thing, we would not be able to separate the right from the wrong, or what is supposed as right and wrong based upon how much it benefits us.

To regard criticism of the government as treason is something that would hold true in a monarchy or dictatorship, not an open government like democracy. In fact, democracy and criticism go hand in hand, one cannot exist without the other.


if our government feels youre causin too much trouble and stirrin up the population in bad way, youre off to jail. another thing, just because you may have freedom of speech, doesnt mean you should use it all the time and for anything. there is a point where everyone should shut up. if there had not been so much bitchin during vietnam, we could have won, we got it right in the end but all the pansies out there bitched and whinned so much we had to leave. bitching just makes things worse. for everyone including yourself.
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28 / M
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Posted 10/5/07
Yawn. Your arguments are pathetic. Narcissism? Lol you mean hubris? Look at my avatar.

Go and die in a war somewhere so your beautiful government can have more oil money to eat caviar with if you are so loyal.

Oh well it's a waste of time arguing this.
Posted 10/5/07

anvoice wrote:

Yawn. Your arguments are pathetic. Narcissism? Lol you mean hubris? Look at my avatar.

Go and die in a war somewhere so your beautiful government can have more oil money to eat caviar with if you are so loyal.

Oh well it's a waste of time arguing this.


youre narcissistic because you think you are oh so brilliant and correct. i have news for you. you dont know half the shit of what goes in the government because they dont tell you. dont assume you because i promise you, you probably dont. and dying in a war is my ideal way of taking my leave so its not insulting. you say the government is only interested in oil? doubtful: 1. invading a country terminates any trade deals. 2. gas prices are rising so we sure as hell arent getting more. youre obivously a sociopath. maybe just stupid or a conspiracist. whats the difference between the two? None.
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29 / M / The centroid of a...
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Posted 10/5/07

skygod333 wrote:

if our government feels youre causin too much trouble and stirrin up the population in bad way, youre off to jail. another thing, just because you may have freedom of speech, doesnt mean you should use it all the time and for anything. there is a point where everyone should shut up. if there had not been so much bitchin during vietnam, we could have won, we got it right in the end but all the pansies out there bitched and whinned so much we had to leave. bitching just makes things worse. for everyone including yourself.


Criticism does not mean stirring up an angry mob sir. I think you are rather...blunt and how should I put this...way too macho in your views. The reason our government puts a stop to people stirring up trouble is for the sake of order. Do not disrupt that order and they wont do anything to you. You are entitles to a peaceful protest as a right guaranteed by the constitution, but when it starts getting violent is when the government will step in.

And you're right, freedom of speech is not a right that should be abused, yet it commonly is. But the abusers are usually not the ones with an important message for the people, the abusers are usually the ones abusing such a right for the sake of abusing it.

And please, do not use vulgarities in these discussions as they require intellectual thought and I find it very difficult to carry out an intelligent conversation with someone who refers to expressing one's contempt as "bitchin".
But I will explain to you the real reason we lost in Vietnam. Vietnam was the first televised war. Are you familiar with the quote "The ends justifies the means"? This was a quote by Machiavelli in "The Prince" where he illustrated all the harsh realities of politics and the ruthlessness of those in power. Before there existed television, this quote held true absolutely, because the "means" was not publicized so the only thing that mattered was the "end". But in Vietnam, everything changed, war tactics, death counts etc.etc. were all made know to the public, this was not a world where "The ends justify the means" anymore. People are now able to feel the war, its casualties, its cruelties and horrors for what they really are, for the first time in human history, and it is only natural that they should react violently against it. If you want to blame something for us losing the Vietnam war, do not blame the people, blame the publicizing of information.
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28 / M
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Posted 10/5/07
I love the combination of "the government does not tell us half of it" and "you're a stupid... person who believes in conspiracies".

How can you possibly judge what I know? The only basis of judgment I used were you arguments, and now you are just ranting. Do not embarrass yourself further my good sir.

Anyway, you don't seem to be worth arguing with. You already lost anyway. I wonder if you know how?
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29 / M / Home of SeaBiscuit
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Posted 10/5/07

skygod333 wrote:


excalion wrote:


skygod333 wrote:

critisizing the government can be considered treason. treason is a felony offense. to answer gev's question about obeying the land's law from which you were born, you should follow the law and be loyal to country. i dont see why americans should be raving about the government, especially since at least they enjoy many multitudes of freedoms.


Quite to the contrary sir. It is with our ability to criticize, to judge, that we are able to progress as a human race. For if we are not able to do such a thing, we would not be able to separate the right from the wrong, or what is supposed as right and wrong based upon how much it benefits us.

To regard criticism of the government as treason is something that would hold true in a monarchy or dictatorship, not an open government like democracy. In fact, democracy and criticism go hand in hand, one cannot exist without the other.


if our government feels youre causin too much trouble and stirrin up the population in bad way, youre off to jail. another thing, just because you may have freedom of speech, doesnt mean you should use it all the time and for anything. there is a point where everyone should shut up. if there had not been so much bitchin during vietnam, we could have won, we got it right in the end but all the pansies out there bitched and whinned so much we had to leave. bitching just makes things worse. for everyone including yourself.


I have a right to criticize anything in this country. Its not treason unless you plot to overthrow the government. I can go outside and say George Bush suck monkey dick and the government is killing the country.... and I'll probably get cheers...cause I'm in a liberal college town. And also, terminating trade agreements? When the US made Iraq into the shitty ass desert country that it is today, it can MAKE the trade agreements. And the gas prices are going up cause of other "reasons." They say its mainly cause the wells in Gulf of Mexico is drained I believe.

The America Dollar is dropping, so is gold. Name one things this lovely government of ours did. Its almost as bad as the Taiwanese government.
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31 / M / Outside your wind...
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Posted 10/5/07
umm...
at this point I should probably identify myself as recently discharged USMC, stationed in the land of sand as recently as a month ago. I realize that is probably not a good thing to admit to on an international forum, given this countries popularity in the world...but i do feel it gives a little more credence to what im about to say.
skygod..on one hand your patriotism for whatever land you are from, is admirable. However, you do need to watch yourself. Blind patriotism is one of the scariest and least effective ideals out there.
....your dreams of dying in a war, honestly made me feel emotion which i cannot put into words. basically, i want to slam my head into my desk while repeatedly shouting 'stupid, stupid, stupid'. The Iraq situation is about a million different things, and yes...most of us have come to believe that a small part of it is related to economics. Not necessarily oil, but many others. (not going to go into detail, that isnt the point of this thread, and if a thread is created on the subject, i will not contribute)
All I'm saying, is please open your eyes to see the world around you for what it is, and not through the blinders you seem to wear. Like anvoice, I feel it would be a waste of time to continue arguing the original topic with you, but for your own sake I really do feel that it would be best if you realize that you can best serve your own goals, as well as whichever country you reside in as you seem to want to, if you merely cease allowing yourself to be a sheep.

editted for spelling.
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29 / M / The centroid of a...
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Posted 10/5/07

skygod333 wrote:

youre narcissistic because you think you are oh so brilliant and correct. i have news for you. you dont know half the shit of what goes in the government because they dont tell you. dont assume you because i promise you, you probably dont. and dying in a war is my ideal way of taking my leave so its not insulting. you say the government is only interested in oil? doubtful: 1. invading a country terminates any trade deals. 2. gas prices are rising so we sure as hell arent getting more. youre obivously a sociopath. maybe just stupid or a conspiracist. whats the difference between the two? None.


ok, I'm going to attempt to phase into a language you understand because the alternative is obviously not working.

Yo son, listen, do you think you know what the government is really doing? If you ain't got no idea either, dont be bashing other people about them not knowing it either, aight? Now lemme tell ya something, Why do you think people believe we are invading Iraq for oil? True it does stop trade but who the hell cares when you control that country? with the situation that was going on before the war, iraq probably would have cut off trade with us soon anyways. I personally dont really care about this war crap but its obvious that all you are focused on is war and fighting and crap. I know people like you son, you are so bent outta shape about being strong and all that crap, well lemme tell you something. Only an idiot thinks its an honor to go die in a war. Only an idiot thinks war is honorable at all, idiots that have been brainwashed by the government to do their bidding. there do you still love this government of yours so much? .....

...ahem, well did I do an acceptable job translating? I dont know, its been so long since I've had to use that "phase" of English.
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31 / M / Outside your wind...
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Posted 10/5/07
wow.
i think i agree with you, but i cant quite understand what you said.
Posted 10/5/07
Dont you people believe in Pax Romanus? i never said you cant rant, i said you people shouldnt, especially since you all enjoy such rights. just because you can doesnt mean you should. can does not mean should. what are the other reasons youre making up happy? they found new wells in the gulf of mexico. anvoice you remind me off the current me, arrogant and assholish. only at least i have a sense of loyalty and logic. im rational and you guys are emotional. all you know is what the US government releases so you have no more potential to know more about the government than me. HAPPYXIX: the goverment does tax breaks, we have good health care where you are seen immediately as opposed to other countries where you wait six months. i dont care if you dont like bush, just dont sit there and oppose everything. and sometimes, the means are brutal but must happen for the outcome. not always but lots of times. this is ridiculous, i shouldnt have to tell you guys to be loyal. you guys are calling me blind and stupid and hardheaded? i dont think so. it takes another hardhead to argue on. im not blind, i see the world around me and ive decided what i want. i havent any goal i wish to serve other than my land. no one made the way i am, i made me what i am and thats the difference between me and sheep.
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29 / M / The centroid of a...
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Posted 10/5/07
Wait, did you seriously just call us emotional and yourself rational? lol ok I'm leaving right now, there's no point in arguing anymore.
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31 / M / Outside your wind...
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Posted 10/5/07

skygod333 wrote:

Dont you people believe in Pax Romanus? i never said you cant rant, i said you people shouldnt, especially since you all enjoy such rights. just because you can doesnt mean you should. can does not mean should. what are the other reasons youre making up happy? they found new wells in the gulf of mexico. anvoice you remind me off the current me, arrogant and assholish. only at least i have a sense of loyalty and logic. im rational and you guys are emotional. all you know is what the US government releases so you have no more potential to know more about the government than me. HAPPYXIX: the goverment does tax breaks, we have good health care where you are seen immediately as opposed to other countries where you wait six months. i dont care if you dont like bush, just dont sit there and oppose everything. and sometimes, the means are brutal but must happen for the outcome. not always but lots of times. this is ridiculous, i shouldnt have to tell you guys to be loyal. you guys are calling me blind and stupid and hardheaded? i dont think so. it takes another hardhead to argue on. im not blind, i see the world around me and ive decided what i want. i havent any goal i wish to serve other than my land. no one made the way i am, i made me what i am and thats the difference between me and sheep.


to correct one thing, i worked in a field within the government that did give me a pretty good view on how it worked, and many things that the public will never know.
Trust me, you dont want to argue 'you dont know any more than i', with a former member of armed forces intelligence.
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