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God Can Not Know Everything
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Posted 4/14/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:

It has occurred to me that it is logically impossible for god to be omniscient. The reason? God must perceive things in some way. Although this way may be totally unlike that of humans he must or else he understand snothing about the universe or reality. The reason he can not know all is that the possibility exists that another being who is more powerful created him, and then put the memories of existing for eternity in his mind. Perception can not really prove anything, as perceptions can be mistaken and manipulated by others. The only thing we can be sure of is our own existence, which we confirm by our thoughts. We can not really be sure of anything else, and since god can not eliminate the possibility above, he is not omniscient, and indeed omniscience is a logical impossibility.


Let me clarify my argument:
1. Perception gives rise to our thoughts.
2. It is only though perception we understand any sort of reality.
3. Our perception may be flawed, and for all we truly know we were created 5 seconds ago with the memory of the rest of our lives put into our heads by some super powerful being.
4.Since god can never truly know anything outside perceptions (a logical impossibility) there is no way for god to know that there was not a creator creator who has manipulated his perceptions.
5. Since omniscience requires you to know everything no being can be so as they can not eliminate the possibility of their perceptions being manipulated.b]

I really don't understand what your motive in posting on CR is.

You give the impression that you want to invoke discussion in these people, but as I'm sure you've realized, 83% of this sites population consists of A. People who barely speak the language B. People who are below 16 years of age or C. Both.

All you seem to be doing is posting in a low risk area where a majority of the population isn't equipped enough to refute you, thereby beating off your ego in a care-free, LULZIMSOSMART manner. I'd really like to see how your points, not just this one, hold up in a forum where people actually have the slightest fucking clue as to what you're/they're saying.

Then again, I suppose I could be way off on this one.
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Posted 4/14/08 , edited 4/18/08
Well, unfortunately if you use logic as we human beings know it, you can end up coming up with weak arguments like this. Assuming there is an omnipotent being that knows all, how can you say they don't know everything if you have no proof that they don't know everything? Lol its quite weak if you ask me. You can't disprove what you can't prove and vice versa. Good luck with them circles you keep running around in.
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Posted 4/14/08 , edited 4/18/08
You must really have some dirty laundry...
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Posted 4/14/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:

It has occurred to me that it is logically impossible for god to be omniscient. The reason? God must perceive things in some way. Although this way may be totally unlike that of humans he must or else he understand snothing about the universe or reality. The reason he can not know all is that the possibility exists that another being who is more powerful created him, and then put the memories of existing for eternity in his mind. Perception can not really prove anything, as perceptions can be mistaken and manipulated by others. The only thing we can be sure of is our own existence, which we confirm by our thoughts. We can not really be sure of anything else, and since god can not eliminate the possibility above, he is not omniscient, and indeed omniscience is a logical impossibility.


Let me clarify my argument:
1. Perception gives rise to our thoughts.
2. It is only though perception we understand any sort of reality.
3. Our perception may be flawed, and for all we truly know we were created 5 seconds ago with the memory of the rest of our lives put into our heads by some super powerful being.
4.Since god can never truly know anything outside perceptions (a logical impossibility) there is no way for god to know that there was not a creator creator who has manipulated his perceptions.
5. Since omniscience requires you to know everything no being can be so as they can not eliminate the possibility of their perceptions being manipulated.b]


God was never created. He existed before the beginning of time. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Get that thought into your head and you'll see it disproves your logic
Posted 4/14/08 , edited 4/18/08
Brova, Bravo. I must say, I endorse this logic lol
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Posted 4/15/08 , edited 4/18/08
God KNows Everything. He created Himself.. or rather he was there from the very beginning. WE just can't understand bcoz we're used to live everyday with a beginning. We thought everything has a beginning and like a movie or something. WE have our own thoughts, and the outcomes are the results of the choices we made.

Like that.. hehe.. I can't explain very well. BUt since I'm a Christian I believe what I believe and so does everyone
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Posted 4/15/08 , edited 4/18/08

fuzzmaster wrote:


magnus102 wrote:

It has occurred to me that it is logically impossible for god to be omniscient. The reason? God must perceive things in some way. Although this way may be totally unlike that of humans he must or else he understand snothing about the universe or reality. The reason he can not know all is that the possibility exists that another being who is more powerful created him, and then put the memories of existing for eternity in his mind. Perception can not really prove anything, as perceptions can be mistaken and manipulated by others. The only thing we can be sure of is our own existence, which we confirm by our thoughts. We can not really be sure of anything else, and since god can not eliminate the possibility above, he is not omniscient, and indeed omniscience is a logical impossibility.


Let me clarify my argument:
1. Perception gives rise to our thoughts.
2. It is only though perception we understand any sort of reality.
3. Our perception may be flawed, and for all we truly know we were created 5 seconds ago with the memory of the rest of our lives put into our heads by some super powerful being.
4.Since god can never truly know anything outside perceptions (a logical impossibility) there is no way for god to know that there was not a creator creator who has manipulated his perceptions.
5. Since omniscience requires you to know everything no being can be so as they can not eliminate the possibility of their perceptions being manipulated.b]

I really don't understand what your motive in posting on CR is.

You give the impression that you want to invoke discussion in these people, but as I'm sure you've realized, 83% of this sites population consists of A. People who barely speak the language B. People who are below 16 years of age or C. Both.

All you seem to be doing is posting in a low risk area where a majority of the population isn't equipped enough to refute you, thereby beating off your ego in a care-free, LULZIMSOSMART manner. I'd really like to see how your points, not just this one, hold up in a forum where people actually have the slightest fucking clue as to what you're/they're saying.

Then again, I suppose I could be way off on this one.


this reply just owned you, magnus.

qft

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Posted 4/15/08 , edited 4/18/08
then again,your arguments are based on the perception that God is a being,with that you seem to assume the existence of such a being which is (based on beliefs)omniscient.

im looking thoroughly your arguments and they seem to be contradictory. XD
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Posted 4/15/08 , edited 4/18/08

jan98x wrote:

then again,your arguments are based on the perception that God is a being,with that you seem to assume the existence of such a being which is (based on beliefs)omniscient.

im looking thoroughly your arguments and they seem to be contradictory. XD

God does not have to be said to be omniscient. After all there were many people who thought of Zeus as a god. Do not assume god = the Christian god, who we can argue can not exist if omniscience is needed to describe his nature, as this arguement shows that no being can be omniscient.

1. If you wish to posit the existence of a x as defined by being omniscient then it must be possible to be omniscient.
2. Being omniscient includes knowing the truth value of all possible propositions (arguable depending on definition of omniscience)
3. Thus, x being omniscient includes knowing that x is omniscient.
4. If the truth value of the proposition (1) "x is omniscient" cannot be known by the x, then x cannot be omniscient.
5. Take the proposition (2) "x was created by a more powerful y which gives x the impression that it is omniscient."
6. If (2) is true then x is not omniscient.
7. If (2) is false then x is omniscient.

Question: Is there any x such that x could know the truth value of (2)? If not, omniscience is not possible in this case, and therefore the god from Christanity can not exist if he has to be omniscient.
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Posted 4/15/08 , edited 4/18/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


jan98x wrote:


God does not have to be said to be omniscient. After all there were many people who thought of Zeus as a god. Do not assume god = the Christian god, who we can argue can not exist if omniscience is needed to describe his nature, as this arguement shows that no being can be omniscient.

1. If you wish to posit the existence of a x as defined by being omniscient then it must be possible to be omniscient.
2. Being omniscient includes knowing the truth value of all possible propositions (arguable depending on definition of omniscience)
3. Thus, x being omniscient includes knowing that x is omniscient.
4. If the truth value of the proposition (1) "x is omniscient" cannot be known by the x, then x cannot be omniscient.
5. Take the proposition (2) "x was created by a more powerful y which gives x the impression that it is omniscient."
6. If (2) is true then x is not omniscient.
7. If (2) is false then x is omniscient.

Question: Is there any x such that x could know the truth value of (2)? If not, omniscience is not possible in this case.




good question,some of your points are the things he needs to clarify his argument

if you think of it,if you're omniscient it means you know anything whether true or false which makes the omniscient being to determine the truth value of (2),which makes the possibility of god being omniscient.
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Posted 4/15/08 , edited 4/18/08

jan98x wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


jan98x wrote:


God does not have to be said to be omniscient. After all there were many people who thought of Zeus as a god. Do not assume god = the Christian god, who we can argue can not exist if omniscience is needed to describe his nature, as this arguement shows that no being can be omniscient.

1. If you wish to posit the existence of a x as defined by being omniscient then it must be possible to be omniscient.
2. Being omniscient includes knowing the truth value of all possible propositions (arguable depending on definition of omniscience)
3. Thus, x being omniscient includes knowing that x is omniscient.
4. If the truth value of the proposition (1) "x is omniscient" cannot be known by the x, then x cannot be omniscient.
5. Take the proposition (2) "x was created by a more powerful y which gives x the impression that it is omniscient."
6. If (2) is true then x is not omniscient.
7. If (2) is false then x is omniscient.

Question: Is there any x such that x could know the truth value of (2)? If not, omniscience is not possible in this case.




good question,some of your points are the things he needs to clarify his argument

if you think of it,if you're omniscient it means you know anything whether true or false which makes the omniscient being to determine the truth value of (2),which makes the possibility of god being omniscient.

No his arguement was clear enough; I have taken it to a logical conclsuion and made a statement about the god of Christanity based on where we can take the idea that no object can be all knowing.

Another logical proof aginst the concept of omniscience:
1. If you wish to posit the existence of a x as defined by being omniscient then it must be possible to be omniscient.
2. Being omniscient includes knowing the truth value of all possible propositions (arguable depending on definition of omniscience)
3. To be all knowing a being would have to know what it is like to be the unique YouAreDumb (me). However that is not something that can be known by such a being as part of what make me know what it is like to be me is that I do not know everything.
4. If 3 is true than omniscience is logically absurd if we define it as knowing everything.

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Posted 4/15/08 , edited 4/18/08

krnsoldierofGod wrote:


magnus102 wrote:

It has occurred to me that it is logically impossible for god to be omniscient. The reason? God must perceive things in some way. Although this way may be totally unlike that of humans he must or else he understand snothing about the universe or reality. The reason he can not know all is that the possibility exists that another being who is more powerful created him, and then put the memories of existing for eternity in his mind. Perception can not really prove anything, as perceptions can be mistaken and manipulated by others. The only thing we can be sure of is our own existence, which we confirm by our thoughts. We can not really be sure of anything else, and since god can not eliminate the possibility above, he is not omniscient, and indeed omniscience is a logical impossibility.


Let me clarify my argument:
1. Perception gives rise to our thoughts.
2. It is only though perception we understand any sort of reality.
3. Our perception may be flawed, and for all we truly know we were created 5 seconds ago with the memory of the rest of our lives put into our heads by some super powerful being.
4.Since god can never truly know anything outside perceptions (a logical impossibility) there is no way for god to know that there was not a creator creator who has manipulated his perceptions.
5. Since omniscience requires you to know everything no being can be so as they can not eliminate the possibility of their perceptions being manipulated.b]


God was never created. He existed before the beginning of time. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Get that thought into your head and you'll see it disproves your logic




Prove it, or did someone just tell you that, like some crazy might tell you about the fairies at the bottom of his garden.
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Posted 4/15/08 , edited 4/18/08

Nanban wrote:


krnsoldierofGod wrote:


magnus102 wrote:

It has occurred to me that it is logically impossible for god to be omniscient. The reason? God must perceive things in some way. Although this way may be totally unlike that of humans he must or else he understand snothing about the universe or reality. The reason he can not know all is that the possibility exists that another being who is more powerful created him, and then put the memories of existing for eternity in his mind. Perception can not really prove anything, as perceptions can be mistaken and manipulated by others. The only thing we can be sure of is our own existence, which we confirm by our thoughts. We can not really be sure of anything else, and since god can not eliminate the possibility above, he is not omniscient, and indeed omniscience is a logical impossibility.


Let me clarify my argument:
1. Perception gives rise to our thoughts.
2. It is only though perception we understand any sort of reality.
3. Our perception may be flawed, and for all we truly know we were created 5 seconds ago with the memory of the rest of our lives put into our heads by some super powerful being.
4.Since god can never truly know anything outside perceptions (a logical impossibility) there is no way for god to know that there was not a creator creator who has manipulated his perceptions.
5. Since omniscience requires you to know everything no being can be so as they can not eliminate the possibility of their perceptions being manipulated.b]


God was never created. He existed before the beginning of time. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Get that thought into your head and you'll see it disproves your logic




Prove it, or did someone just tell you that, like some crazy might tell you about the fairies at the bottom of his garden.


o geez. The arguments of the existence of God always goes around and around. Do you really awnt to start something like that

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Posted 4/15/08 , edited 4/18/08

krnsoldierofGod wrote:


Nanban wrote:


krnsoldierofGod wrote:


magnus102 wrote:

It has occurred to me that it is logically impossible for god to be omniscient. The reason? God must perceive things in some way. Although this way may be totally unlike that of humans he must or else he understand snothing about the universe or reality. The reason he can not know all is that the possibility exists that another being who is more powerful created him, and then put the memories of existing for eternity in his mind. Perception can not really prove anything, as perceptions can be mistaken and manipulated by others. The only thing we can be sure of is our own existence, which we confirm by our thoughts. We can not really be sure of anything else, and since god can not eliminate the possibility above, he is not omniscient, and indeed omniscience is a logical impossibility.


Let me clarify my argument:
1. Perception gives rise to our thoughts.
2. It is only though perception we understand any sort of reality.
3. Our perception may be flawed, and for all we truly know we were created 5 seconds ago with the memory of the rest of our lives put into our heads by some super powerful being.
4.Since god can never truly know anything outside perceptions (a logical impossibility) there is no way for god to know that there was not a creator creator who has manipulated his perceptions.
5. Since omniscience requires you to know everything no being can be so as they can not eliminate the possibility of their perceptions being manipulated.b]


God was never created. He existed before the beginning of time. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Get that thought into your head and you'll see it disproves your logic




Prove it, or did someone just tell you that, like some crazy might tell you about the fairies at the bottom of his garden.


o geez. The arguments of the existence of God always goes around and around. Do you really awnt to start something like that



Not really, it's a waste of breath, faith is blind and I can see.

Anyway I know you don't have any proof (no, the voices in peoples heads are not necessarily god's)

It's just that generally, in any debate its always useful to stick to the facts and argue in a clear rational manner. Alphas, Omegas etc thats all just crazy talk, its as meaningful as me entering a debate with the words; 'Zeus the Lord of Earth is Alpha and Omega!'

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Posted 4/15/08 , edited 4/18/08
God could not exist at least not in the way everyone thinks.He could not have been there before time because....thats impossible.Also if he created the universe and all that jazz then who created him?Its impossible,i refuse to believe that just one day POOF heeeeeeee-eeeres god! It dosent work that way.
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