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God Can Not Know Everything
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26 / M
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Posted 4/16/08 , edited 4/18/08
yes!!!
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23 / M / Palm Beach, Florida
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Posted 4/16/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


a1q2s3 wrote:. It bears n

[

I find it ironic that the entire first post is simply your perception on the matter using your perception of logic, you did say perception may be flawed, so who is to say that your perception on the matter is flawed. This logic of yours humans can perceive as logical, but it's simply their perception. In conclusion, no offense but you haven't brought the world any closer to proving there is or isn't a higher being/s, this matter is simply unprovable, even religious people simply believe [and accept as a truth within themselves] there to be a higher being/s, that can't truly prove their is or isn't, no one can.
I have proven it to the extent that anything can be proven, or that is to say as far as anything can be proven in the reality that I perceive to exist. The only way to function in reality (or at least the reality which seems real) is to accept my perception is valid. I am aware that the logical conclusion of this argument is that existence itself can never be proven in any regard. It does not matter, as all I can do is accept the reality I live in , and in that reality this argument is valid. Can I know it's true? No. If I do not accept it though than I can no longer accept anything about my reality. I admit to not knowing is it is true, but we can never know anything is true but the fact we exist so it is irrelevant.


“Blessed are those who not seen and yet believe” (Jn. 20:29)


Keep thinking that.


Wow that got kinda confusing.
So what your saying is in your reality you've proven God to not exist?
Well in my reality I'll remain inconclusive and accept the situation as unprovable either way.
Also that quote was to justify how Christians believe in god, since I said it earlier, it wasn't directed towards you as a command, I hope you didn't feel as if I was implying that upon you.

...and I yes I am a Christian and I will keep thinking that, for it is an unprovable truth (yeah I know that contradicting) within myself that I choose to believe in.

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Posted 4/16/08 , edited 4/18/08

music190 wrote:


magnus102 wrote:


music190 wrote:

God was there before time was evan time. He made you weather you like it or not. And yes, he does know everything. Your just jealous.


WELL THAT ATTACKS MY LOGIC YES SIR!


Please, i'm not in the mood for your "everybody has it" Ignorance. If you want to disporve God so much, than why don't you just write a book?


TO: the author of this topic, true...please don't offend god in this way? there might be some Christians here
they might get really offended. What is so fun and does this topic that you made here benefit you? please be more mature. You don't argue about religion because u cant prove anything about religions. So please understand the situation..Thank You
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Posted 4/16/08 , edited 4/18/08
Hmm, my bad, if "knowing everything" or omniscience is a straightforward interpretation, that it's true that God cannot know everything. But, in my POV (and in philosophical way), omniscient is the ability to know every true claim that can be known, and believing none that are false.

In order for some assertion to known, it must (at least) to be true. So if proposition X is false, then X cannot be known. X can be known to be false, but it's actually to know not X. For e.g we can't know that 1+1=3, because it's not true, but we can know 1+1 IS NOT equal to 3.

God is omnipotent (to be able to do everything - including knowing everything, except those that involve a contradiction). Does it mean that God can know everything except those that involve a contradiction?

The free will theory might be weak, but if God giving us free will (including bad things), can God stop us from doing the thing that we want? Can God stop Hitler from killing millions of Jews? No God can't, because God is omnipotent. It's God's plan for us to be a better person, but it doesn't mean we have to obey his plan. I suddenly remember of Bruce Allmighty XD, God told him that he couldn't mess with people free will...
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Posted 4/16/08 , edited 4/18/08
mmhm...nobody ever said God was psychic or SMART
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Posted 4/16/08 , edited 4/18/08

sen_dy wrote:
The free will theory might be weak, but if God giving us free will (including bad things), can God stop us from doing the thing that we want? Can God stop Hitler from killing millions of Jews? No God can't, because God is omnipotent. It's God's plan for us to be a better person, but it doesn't mean we have to obey his plan. I suddenly remember of Bruce Allmighty XD, God told him that he couldn't mess with people free will...


What makes you so sure we even have free will? Every move we make might well be as god wants it to be.
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
magnus: if God is not beyond conception, holy scriptures surely indicate that the "godly affairs" is so.Take Jesus' many allegories, trying to explain things people don't get. The prophets are given revelations (or apocalypse, a look into the "hidden veil" really). The conception of god is a conception. Actually, it is not really important, although people make it so. I am not aware of any indication that the conception of god is important. But yeah, a conception of god should be supported by evidence or logic, that is references in holy scriptures given cultural and theological meaning. That is theology in the sense that it is supported by other references and the general meaning of the holy scriptures, not clerical tradition (the churches' say-so).

mcluva: theologically speaking it is easier to see a psychic god (see the revelations people have been given) than an all-knowing. There are a lot of references to people knowing the future through a revelation.

At some points in the holy scriptures god is angry and/or disappointed, a strange reaction if he knew all that was to be. However this of course, does not mean that he can not be all-knowing when it comes to the present. But some people claim he knows all about the future too. What I find more interesting than the theory that god is all-knowing is the level of revelation it can give to prophets and apostles. The difference between John and Bartholomew is interesting for instance.
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
As a Catholic, I think what you're saying is quite wrong, because God has created us, and as the Almighty, how can he not know everything?
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29 / M / Tx, gates of hell
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
god is not real. it is more like man created god, main reason, because they are not focing but making you believe in him just making you think that he is real. those who read the bible, i do hope you know your just reading a fictional book, or something that someone made up. I'd only believe things when i see it with my own eyes, otherwise no. i prefer realistic things rather then believing something that someone might lie about. its like saying, how were they created when dinosaurs roamed the lands? like, the tablet and crap.
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29 / M / Tx, gates of hell
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
and other crap as well.
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
This would also mean that logically, God cannot be omnipotent. This is because 2 conditions must be fulfilled before one can carry out an action. One is the ability or power to carry it out. The other would be the knowledge of how to carry it out. Since God cannot be all-knowing, by that line of reasoning, He cannot be all-powerful either. Without knowing everything, God then cannot do everything.
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25 / M / Stamford, CT
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
all I read out of that was crap + more crap= crap

I believe in GOD..and that's that..people attack me all the time with this same exact nonsense, I just think it's another way of how Satan attacks us to today's world. People always try to prove that god is fake but you also must except satan and how he also plays in todays world! all these forum topics always try to disprove GOD and his wonderful works. But I never hear anything about Satan(I'm not worshipping Satan here... ) but I get your point because if you prove there's no GOD then there's no Satan. *remember* "Satan some to kill, steal, and destroy he's just messing with the way you think!!!

GOD has given us free will, and this "free will" that he's given us has eluded many people in today's world!! there's just some things that science can not explain..but that's what today's world is trying to do..by dissproving miracles with logic!

Besides what you have written is your own perception on how you think GOD does things. No man can even try to think on the level that GOD is on...so basically right there blow's everthing you tried to prove (well to me) out the water. also as a man once said "It's better to believe in GOD and find out there's nothing, than not believing and finding out there is a GOD"
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
But logically God is omnipotent. You all try and undermine God as human and subject to human logic and opinions. Some say "realistically" God cannot exist. But I ask you, according to science, matter cannot be created or destroyed. There exists matter today. Which means something beyond science (God) must have created it. It is illogical to believe that the matter just came to be without any form of higher power, or even a will for it. Matter simply just doesn't come from nothingness. If it did, it would still be happening now (which it isn't)
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

goldenmegazx wrote:
"It's better to believe in GOD and find out there's nothing, than not believing and finding out there is a GOD"


Not really, if you don't think there is a god you'll try to get the maximum out of your live. If you do believe this is just the small step before eternal happynes. Making it nothing special.
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

goldenmegazx wrote:

all I read out of that was crap + more crap= crap

I believe in GOD..and that's that..people attack me all the time with this same exact nonsense, I just think it's another way of how Satan attacks us to today's world. People always try to prove that god is fake but you also must except satan and how he also plays in todays world! all these forum topics always try to disprove GOD and his wonderful works. But I never hear anything about Satan(I'm not worshipping Satan here... ) but I get your point because if you prove there's no GOD then there's no Satan. *remember* "Satan some to kill, steal, and destroy he's just messing with the way you think!!!

GOD has given us free will, and this "free will" that he's given us has eluded many people in today's world!! there's just some things that science can not explain..but that's what today's world is trying to do..by dissproving miracles with logic!

Besides what you have written is your own perception on how you think GOD does things. No man can even try to think on the level that GOD is on...so basically right there blow's everthing you tried to prove (well to me) out the water. also as a man once said "It's better to believe in GOD and find out there's nothing, than not believing and finding out there is a GOD"


Relax. Don't be so defensive. What magnus is saying is that if we think logically, even if God did exist, it is impossible for God to be omniscient. What you're saying is going even further and saying that you cannot apply logic to God at all, and that logic disproves God? (I think its implied.) Doesn't that support magnus? His basic argument starts with logic. If you're supporting him why are you getting upset?

You don't get it do you? The thing is that the less logical something is, the more faith is needed. You seem to agree that faith is what is needed with God. (Faith is a card pulled out by religious types all the time isn't it?) There isn't a contradiction here. I feel weird reading two sides of an argument doing nothing but say the same things differently. Of course, simply saying "that is why we have faith" has no place here, but there really isn't any reason to get upset over what magnus has posted.
Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
I am just wondering how someone here would explain me God's creation, as in what or how God got created or was he here from the very beginning? I guess no reasonable answer will be found as nobody here is able, or omnipotent enough to percieve God's existence as a reality, as everyone here bases their opinions and ideas only on their imagination and faith. Which means, that people here believe that we are not omnipotent enough to know God's omnipotency as our minds are not able to percieve the truth nor the reality as everything is solely based on our unreliable sensual factors, which will change with the subject, as every individual is different and percieves the surrounding in a different light, slight differencies. Which would actually mean that we are not able to comprehend God's logic at all, as we lack the ability to understand his words or signs. Which would mean that we lack the ability to percieve God at all, as we are lacking the certain omnipotency to understand God.
All this bullshit now sounds to me as if it would mean that everybody who believes in God, believes in a fatamorgana/mirage. And are mirages real? Come on people, I seriously don't see any point in your arguments as all I red so far in this thread is that we are not omnipotent enough to percieve God, which can't be true otherwise how can we believe in God if we are not able to percieve him? If we are able to feel him, percieve him, doesn't that mean that we could as well be able to understand him? What I want to say is, that Magnus's theory could as well be true, but we will never know as our senses are flawed to a certain point which abolishes the idea of us seeing the truth, of us ever reaching the point to see what is true and what not.

Damn it, I lost my flow of thoughts and I am not sure if I made sense at all w/e =P

Floetry~
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
you're just gay. he does know everything and he sees everything.

IN THE BIBLE, HE KEEPS A BOOK ALL ABOUT YOU, LOSERS.

be jealous!
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27 / M / Tokyo-3
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
lol... Christians (all monotheists, really) need to be more logical in defending their faith. The basic premise of the first post (I didn't bother reading pages 2-6) is that God must have been created by a high power, which makes sense in linear time (and even outside linear time). But in this particular universe, God could be all-knowing, because this universe is finite. He would NOT be all-powerful, because there are rules that even he must obey inside his own universe. For example, it is impossible for God to sin against himself. So God it is entirely possible that God is all-knowing (within this universe) but not all-powerful...

...unless you don't believe in God, but from my point of view the only difference (in the acceptance of God or lack thereof) is personal belief, and there is insufficient evidence to prove or disprove him. No one can prove that God exists, because that would negate the entire point of faith. No one can prove that God does not exist. So all the people making claims about God not being all-knowing, and all the people simply quoting the bible, are making equally futile arguments.

(It is impossible to force religion on people, and I recall Christ saying something about not hating your enemies (looking at the person above me), so why is anyone who believes in God bothering with this topic?)
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