Post Reply Free Will
Posted 4/17/08
I'll start with the Buddhist perspective which is pretty complex:
http://bhikkhublog.blogspot.com/2008/04/free-will.html
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Posted 4/20/08
I was a Calvinist when I was a Christian. I don't think an omniscient and omnipotent god can co exist with free will.
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Posted 4/25/08
I'm seeing a lot of "Then you’re blind, in denial, or dumb" type of things lately, including tone.

dont be a hypocrite seraph. read the description of the group which btw was made by you
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Posted 5/1/08
Do you know what is great about free will? The awesomest thing about free will is that you can argue about free will until the cows come home (sorry, farming town, farming dad...please forgive). You both have the freedom to believe what you want. You know where free will doesn't exist? In countries where it is supressed. Places where you aren't allowed to speak out like this, because you fear reprisal from the government, and even then you are free, if you are willing to accept the consequences. Arguing about whether a God you may not even believe in allows you to make your own choices is silly. I've been following this thread, and I can't believe you are both still wrangling over this. Will a point ever come where you will agree to differ (viva la 'free will'), and separate to corners?
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Posted 5/14/08
Well, there was a lot of superfluous material in here so I’m just going to sum it up and delete the unnecessary walls of text:

To Y.A.D:

I disagree with you. I don’t think the existence of God anymore means the non-existence of free-will than the non-existence of God because every moment in time already exists as it is exists. Saying that an omnipotent God cannot exist in cognition to free will is like saying that free-will doesn’t exist because what will be will be.

To Mauz:

I originally apologized, but at this point I kind of take it back. Now that I think about it, I wasn’t attacking anyone for their beliefs. This debate wasn’t over beliefs, it was over logic and science. In this case things are black and white; therefore, when one brings about logical debate one can be wrong-and thus, I don’t feel I did anything wrong.
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Posted 5/16/08

SeraphAlford wrote:

Well, there was a lot of superfluous material in here so I’m just going to sum it up and delete the unnecessary walls of text:

To Mauz:

I originally apologized, but at this point I kind of take it back. Now that I think about it, I wasn’t attacking anyone for their beliefs. This debate wasn’t over beliefs, it was over logic and science. In this case things are black and white; therefore, when one brings about logical debate one can be wrong-and thus, I don’t feel I did anything wrong.


so you decide what post to stay and which to delete? well good luck getting people to post now.

Second, I don't care if its a black or white argument, but focus on the argument instead of judging the character of the arguer. I would have pointed out why I am saying this but someone deleted everything.

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Posted 5/17/08

mauz15 wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

Well, there was a lot of superfluous material in here so I’m just going to sum it up and delete the unnecessary walls of text:

To Mauz:

I originally apologized, but at this point I kind of take it back. Now that I think about it, I wasn’t attacking anyone for their beliefs. This debate wasn’t over beliefs, it was over logic and science. In this case things are black and white; therefore, when one brings about logical debate one can be wrong-and thus, I don’t feel I did anything wrong.


so you decide what post to stay and which to delete? well good luck getting people to post now.

Second, I don't care if its a black or white argument, but focus on the argument instead of judging the character of the arguer. I would have pointed out why I am saying this but someone deleted everything.



Mauz, I expected more than petty insults from you. I deleted those posts because they didn’t serve any further purpose. Nobody was going to come and read over them, and even if they did it wouldn’t have served any purpose. There was no argument in that, just the continuous repeating of opposing opinions in growingly derogatory manners.

It was spam, just wasting space, and not serving anybody any good-Y.A.D wasn’t going to come back and review, and neither was I, and nobody else cared enough to get involved in the first place.

As far as the rest of your criticism, pull the log from your eye.


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Posted 5/20/08

SeraphAlford wrote:

Well, there was a lot of superfluous material in here so I’m just going to sum it up and delete the unnecessary walls of text:

To Y.A.D:

I disagree with you. I don’t think the existence of God anymore means the non-existence of free-will than the non-existence of God because every moment in time already exists as it is exists. Saying that an omnipotent God cannot exist in cognition to free will is like saying that free-will doesn’t exist because what will be will be.
I am leaving this group, but before I go I will again explain why your arguments make no sense. If every moment in time has always existed, and god choose to make them that way when he created time, then there is no way for us to go anything of our own volition. Everything was mapped out by god at the start. Your objections makes no sense because I am not saying what will be will be-I am saying it already is. Once again return to the concept of space time. Every moment in your life exists already. Your path is already there despite your inability to realize it. How can we make choices if god created space time according to his will with all choices made already? Free will is the power to make ones own choices, and as you admitted in a post you deleted god influences our decision (in fact logically he makes them for us) .


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Posted 5/22/08 , edited 5/22/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

Well, there was a lot of superfluous material in here so I’m just going to sum it up and delete the unnecessary walls of text:

To Y.A.D:

I disagree with you. I don’t think the existence of God anymore means the non-existence of free-will than the non-existence of God because every moment in time already exists as it is exists. Saying that an omnipotent God cannot exist in cognition to free will is like saying that free-will doesn’t exist because what will be will be.
I am leaving this group, but before I go I will again explain why your arguments make no sense. If every moment in time has always existed, and god choose to make them that way when he created time, then there is no way for us to go anything of our own volition. Everything was mapped out by god at the start. Your objections makes no sense because I am not saying what will be will be-I am saying it already is. Once again return to the concept of space time. Every moment in your life exists already. Your path is already there despite your inability to realize it. How can we make choices if god created space time according to his will with all choices made already? Free will is the power to make ones own choices, and as you admitted in a post you deleted god influences our decision (in fact logically he makes them for us) .




I argued that “The Existence of God no more omits the existence of free will than the none existence of God.” As seen here:

I don’t think the existence of God anymore means the non-existence of free-will than the non-existence of God


Your argued that the existence of god means the non-existence of free will is based on the fact that “what will be is,” but I’m telling you that regardless of rather or not God is real all moments exist in cognition to one another; therefore, rather or not god is real “what will be is.”

By your argument, free will simply doesn’t exist rather or not God exists. I’d point out that, assuming your logic is sound -its not- then the only escape route would be an omnipotent entity. In short your argument can be turned to argue that free will only exists -if- there is a god.

Descartes pointed out that he exists because he thinks. He knows he exists because he’s experiencing his existence as it is; therefore, he knows he’s happy because he’s experiencing happiness. In the same nature I can be certain that I’m making choices because I am experiencing the sensation of making choices.

I know free will exists-and by your logic it cannot exist unless god exists; therefore, I can feel certain that God exists. But, that’s just a side-note.

The ultimate point was expressed quite a time ago.


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Posted 7/7/08 , edited 7/7/08

YouAreDumb wrote:

I was a Calvinist when I was a Christian. I don't think an omniscient and omnipotent god can co exist with free will.


YouAreDumb has a point, though I think it was posed poorly.

The key point is actually omniscience. If god already knows what you are going to do, then the future is already set in stone. Calvinists have a strong belief in predestination because of this. The line of reasoning is rather iron clad so long as absolute omniscience is accepted.

I am not going to discuss the possibilities of parallel universes, the idea of collapsing the entire universe worth of quantum probabilities, or the idea the possibility of information going back through time. It makes for good speculation, but bad science.

Another component of this argument is that if free will IS real, then god has set up a system where he knows evil can happen. If you take it as given that an all powerful god who has the ability to determine what they want created the universe, then right and wrong were established by him. Therefore he is the definition of good, so why couldn't he have set up a system where free will exists and evil cannot exist? Is he not smart enough? No, that contradicts all knowing. Does he not have the power? Does he want evil to exist?

So what's the answer? You seemingly have to give on one point or another.

Don't know. The problem doesn't come up in a multi god system.



SeraphAlford wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

Well, there was a lot of superfluous material in here so I’m just going to sum it up and delete the unnecessary walls of text:

To Y.A.D:

I disagree with you. I don’t think the existence of God anymore means the non-existence of free-will than the non-existence of God because every moment in time already exists as it is exists. Saying that an omnipotent God cannot exist in cognition to free will is like saying that free-will doesn’t exist because what will be will be.
I am leaving this group, but before I go I will again explain why your arguments make no sense. If every moment in time has always existed, and god choose to make them that way when he created time, then there is no way for us to go anything of our own volition. Everything was mapped out by god at the start. Your objections makes no sense because I am not saying what will be will be-I am saying it already is. Once again return to the concept of space time. Every moment in your life exists already. Your path is already there despite your inability to realize it. How can we make choices if god created space time according to his will with all choices made already? Free will is the power to make ones own choices, and as you admitted in a post you deleted god influences our decision (in fact logically he makes them for us) .




I argued that “The Existence of God no more omits the existence of free will than the none existence of God.” As seen here:

I don’t think the existence of God anymore means the non-existence of free-will than the non-existence of God


Your argued that the existence of god means the non-existence of free will is based on the fact that “what will be is,” but I’m telling you that regardless of rather or not God is real all moments exist in cognition to one another; therefore, rather or not god is real “what will be is.”

By your argument, free will simply doesn’t exist rather or not God exists. I’d point out that, assuming your logic is sound -its not- then the only escape route would be an omnipotent entity. In short your argument can be turned to argue that free will only exists -if- there is a god.

Descartes pointed out that he exists because he thinks. He knows he exists because he’s experiencing his existence as it is; therefore, he knows he’s happy because he’s experiencing happiness. In the same nature I can be certain that I’m making choices because I am experiencing the sensation of making choices.

I know free will exists-and by your logic it cannot exist unless god exists; therefore, I can feel certain that God exists. But, that’s just a side-note.

The ultimate point was expressed quite a time ago.




OK. I think there might be some logical, not flaws, call them road bumps.

The only reason that god and free will are connected in this logical discussion is that if every move that one makes is planned out, then none of our moves can deviate. Our will is not free. The same situation can apply with no god in a purely Einsteinian universe. Everything is cause and effect no matter how complicated. If A is here and is acted upon by B then C.

So let us step back from the existence of god debate for a second.

If the future is set then there can not be free will, only it's illusion. On the other hand if actions can happen outside of sheer predictable cause and effect then free will might be real. That is if A is here and is acted upon by B then probably C with a slim chance of D and the outside chance of E.

The Sumerian perspective: Free will can exist, but doesn't in all instances. There are seven gods who decree fate. Each of these seven has a vote in how various events can go, but no single one has all of the power. They can be swayed in their vote however. This indicates freedom of choice.

If all seven agree on something there might seem to be free will, but it is only an illusion.

Edit: compiled posts into one. ~Kimmm6


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Posted 7/7/08 , edited 7/8/08

LordShangYang wrote:
The key point is actually omniscience. If god already knows what you are going to do, then the future is already set in stone. Calvinists have a strong belief in predestination because of this. The line of reasoning is rather iron clad so long as absolute omniscience is accepted.

I am not going to discuss the possibilities of parallel universes, the idea of collapsing the entire universe worth of quantum probabilities, or the idea the possibility of information going back through time. It makes for good speculation, but bad science.


Okay, let’s attack this once again. We say that it’s logical that if God knows the future there can’t be free will. This isn’t necessarily true, it’s an assumption not necessarily based on logic-but rather personal perspective of logic. Let us imagine, for example, that we were actually two-dimensional people.

Our entire universe was a picture drawn on a massive sheet of paper, which exists in a three dimensional world. Within this three dimensional world our sheet of paper is place in a machine that constantly pokes holes in the paper. The machine slides the paper down poking one hole after another, continuing until the paper is destroyed.

Being oblivious of the three dimensional world we would perceive that one hole must follow the next. This would appear to us to be logically sound but that’s not actually true. It simply reflects our limited view-point and lack of understanding of the three-dimensional world. Yes, I know the analogy is weak in some points, but you should understand where I’m going with this.

You actually provided a good example. If A is acted on by B then C. Physicists call this order. The universe progresses in a series of relatively easily measures actions and reactions. However, after the heat death there will be no more of this. We descend into chaos where any changes aren’t measurable and don’t have an ordered structure. So much for the logic of causality.

Basically logic doesn’t actually say that looking into the future negates free will. We just think it does, but honestly I think if you press your imagination you can see quite clearly how it’s possible for the future to be predicted and even set in stone without necessarily destroying free-will.

Let’s say you jump off a cliff. You’ll eventually hit the ground, but that doesn’t mean you didn’t make the choice. You know you’ll eventually hit the ground, but that doesn’t mean you didn’t decide to jump. So, you know the consequences of your actions but your still making the choice.

I can choose to pull the trigger of a .45 caliber hand-gun with hollow-head bullets cocked into the chamber while it’s pointing at my foot because want to blow my toes off. I know what’s going to happen. I know the future. That doesn’t mean that I’m not choosing to pull the trigger.

In this case it’s actually god who knows the future, but the same argument applies with minor adaptations. You understand? Just because you know what choices you’re going to make before you make them doesn’t mean that you’re not making the choices. In the same nature just because God knows what choices you’re going to make doesn’t mean you’re not making choices. Just because God views the entire casual chain doesn’t negate choice. We’re making choices he just predicts them and their consequences before they happen.

Now then, let’s say I decided to shoot myself in the foot oblivious to the consequence. I pass out from the pain and then, let say, I have one of those “out of body experiences.”

So, I’m floating over my body and looking down at it. I’m remembering what led to this moment. At one point in time I’m holding a gun and pulling a trigger. The next moment my foot is exploding. The next I’m a bleeding spirit or something.

Okay, we have three points now:

Point A: Trigger Pulling Point (past perfect,)

Point B: Exploding Foot Point (past)

Point C: Floating Ghost Point (now)

Every moment in time exists in cognition to every other moment. So the spirit in point C exists in cognition to the pale-nerdy-boy in point A. So, in relation to the nerd in point A the spirit in point C knows the future. Now, let’s move that spirit from time altogether. The spirit now exists outside of time and is watching it from a exterior vantage point.

The choice was made. The spirit knows the choice is coming, knows what’s going to happen, but that doesn’t mean the choice isn’t a choice. It’s still exorcizing volition. The nerd still has free will.




Another component of this argument is that if free will IS real, then god has set up a system where he knows evil can happen. If you take it as given that an all powerful god who has the ability to determine what they want created the universe, then right and wrong were established by him. Therefore he is the definition of good, so why couldn't he have set up a system where free will exists and evil cannot exist? Is he not smart enough? No, that contradicts all knowing. Does he not have the power? Does he want evil to exist?


Let’s super simplify this. Let’s look at free will as the ability to choose between two options. In this case good and evil. Let’s look at humans as individual beings who posses free-will. Being individuals and not robots we’re not all going to make the same choice. If we’re not individuals then we’re monotonous robots. Free will doesn’t exist. If we are individuals, and free will does exist, we’re obviously not going to make the same choices as everyone else. Free will does exist.

But if we have two options (good and evil) and not everyone is going to take the same option obviously evil is going to be chosen.

Essentially the “attack” is oxy-moron game. It's like saying, "If God can do anything can he create an existence where nothing exists? Well, sure, I suppose-but then it's not an existence....is it? I'm afraid the latter component of the arguement doesn't hold much water, at least so far as I see it.

Still, good response, and thanks again for the contribution. I look forward to continued communication. Who knows, maybe you'll actually make this arrogant child admit he's wrong? Well, time will tell.
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Posted 7/7/08 , edited 7/7/08
My super-mod senses are tingling...I sense a fight coming on...

Don't break up the furniture guys, kk? Oh, and don't make a mess, since I'm the one who will have to clean it up. OH...and I'm not taking anyone to the hospital...
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Posted 7/8/08

kimmm6 wrote:

My super-mod senses are tingling...I sense a fight coming on...

Don't break up the furniture guys, kk? Oh, and don't make a mess, since I'm the one who will have to clean it up. OH...and I'm not taking anyone to the hospital...


Well, I don’t think a fight is coming. Maybe a debate, but even that I’m not certain of. I don’t have the time and energy I once did. It took a lot just to contribute this much. Whatever the case, he seems cool so far.
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Posted 9/29/08
I read the posts,and....
Here are my opinions:
There are a few things which i agree on, such as God having made us. I believe God gave us Free Will because He wants to give us the freedom to choose for ourselves whether we want to go back to Heaven to Him.
Something which I totally dispute,is that there are many Gods. I believe there is only 1. God sent us the 5 Teachers, Prophet Mohammed, Lord Jesus, Buddha, Kong Tse and Lao Tse. Just because the way we are Taught are different,doesnt mean there is more than 1 God.
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