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Who Killed More , Satan or God?
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Posted 4/17/08 , edited 4/17/08
what about the first born children he killed off because of some pharoah?
what about the creatures(beasts and humans) he drowned?
what about the city he turned to stone?




Posted 4/18/08

ResidentEvil wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:

God does not kill people. People kill other people in his name.


Exodus:12:29-30 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.

Unless I am misquoting something.


Well, it isn't misquoted at all. God sent also nine plagues on Egypt and its folk, don't ask me how many people died due to the disasters that this plagues have caused. He also, in the beginning, let the whole world drown under water. Again, how many people died? Meh, in the end we don't hear anything about the Devil, we always only hear something about God.

Anyways I still believe that this whole Bible BS is just a sweet and bitter fairytail to manipulate the people for someone's political interests.

Floetry~
duh
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Posted 4/18/08
Everyone's death tally will depend on their perspective.

Atheists will say the tally is God: 0, Satan: 0 because they deny the existence of both.
The thread-starter seems to be crediting only murders done by Satan-worshippers to Satan, whereas Christians would probably attribute murders by Christians and non-Christians alike to Satan.

As a Christian myself, I think it's useless to wonder if Satan is "responsible" for any of this. If I kill someone, I don't care if Satan really appeared before me and told me to do it. It's my responsibility.
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Posted 4/18/08
city turned to stone? Are you sure you don't mean the city that exploded or something, while the wife of Lot was turned to stone? Well, maybe you are right. The first books of the bible are very legend-like. Their credibility is shaken, even within the church. The good/evil-thing is theology. Biblical references go towards the fight between the word and the absence/perversion of the word, which is what satan wants. One may ask how god is considered good, but this is a problem for the church, not the scriptures really. I think that the good/evil-spectre is actually taken from zoroasterism or something. Anyways, during confrontations with the jewish followers in the bible, god and prophets talk about punishments for the heretics et cetera being more sinister. The point not being good/evil, but that the jews are given a chance, that god is granting them an opportunity and that he sometimes show mercy (a reference is the city I think someone was really referring to: sodom, where the city would be spared if it contained enough just people). Also it is considered that people are given a special gift through god communicating with them. Which is quite natural. You are warned, and whether you obey or disobey, you are therefore given a chance, before punishment. Fairer than just being punished. I have been referred to one loose quote saying that god is good, but that one can be interpreted as Jesus not wanting to get into trouble, or referring for instance to god's mercy, which is sometimes shown. And anyways, human ethics applied to god, what? Human ethics are greater than god? god is supposed to bow to human conception? I am not a christian, but that is ridiculous. And again: the good/evil- thing is a theological conception. Also that satan is evil. satan's "job" is to accuse, to make people doubt, to pervert (=interpret) the word, not to walk around being evil. Satan, the evil guy, is folklore. I do not think it is even much of a praticular theological theory. It is a human conception (we should all believe in god) coupled with a theological conceived conclusion (therefore anyone that works against this can be considered evil). The point is that faith and knowledge is the most important factors. If you use humanistic ethics on god (good/evil on your own premices) you are just mixing two different things and blaming a god you don't believe in for the result. It is futile. You may avoid it all, by not bowing to the conclusion that god is good and satan is evil. That is quite possible. Again: the conception of good and evil is not important in the bible. It is the word that is important. In the bible you can read about humans appplying their right/wrong conception or perhaps rather their conception of fairness on god (like with Sodom), not god bringing it up. So our conceptions are secondary at best, to god's will.

On the question on whether or not satan could be said to be evil out of human conception, I think the most important factor is whether or not it is "the prince of this world". If it is, then it is at least accused to be so (murderer among other things). If not, satan is not that evil from a humanistic point of view. And I think this is where you need to digest religion a bit, to understand. The point is not at all good/evil, but that the word is supposed to be strong, that some people are chosen and can be granted grace and gifts and a passage to heaven. While many are doomed to suffer and go to hell for their disbelief and sins. This is much more important than the usual right/wrong conception. Also between bliss in heaven for all eternity, and burning in hell for eternity, the life on earth is quite irrelevant as more than your chance to determine which place you will go. The problem is people wanting god is a nice guy that just grants gifts and do "right" by atheist standards. However, whatever conclusion you draw by using your own standards on a deity, can not be blamed upon the dity, nor can it be considered valuable criticism.
"I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments..." (Isaiah). If you want to claim that god is just a nice guy according to the bible, I have more quotes. It is only a misconception.
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Posted 4/18/08
plus if satan didn't trick humans into eating the fruit then God would never of had to kill people or let people die
so in it's really satan's fault for people dying. i really think satan is the saddest idiotic thing ever i mean seriously wth is wrong with him!!!?? he knew how powerful God was and still chose to go against him omg hahahaha he knew that God is unbeatable HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHA
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Posted 4/18/08 , edited 4/18/08

Archangel768 wrote:

plus if satan didn't trick humans into eating the fruit then God would never of had to kill people or let people die
so in it's really satan's fault for people dying. i really think satan is the saddest idiotic thing ever i mean seriously wth is wrong with him!!!?? he knew how powerful God was and still chose to go against him omg hahahaha he knew that God is unbeatable HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHA


No, god was an idiot for even creating satan. He knew that satan would turn on him so why did he create him in the first place?
He also knew satan was going to trick those people, after all hes all-knowing. So god probably just wanted it to happen. Or hes just plain daft.
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Posted 4/18/08

PedroAlvarado wrote:


Archangel768 wrote:

plus if satan didn't trick humans into eating the fruit then God would never of had to kill people or let people die
so in it's really satan's fault for people dying. i really think satan is the saddest idiotic thing ever i mean seriously wth is wrong with him!!!?? he knew how powerful God was and still chose to go against him omg hahahaha he knew that God is unbeatable HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHA


No, god was an idiot for even creating satan. He knew that satan would turn on him so why did he create him in the first place?
He also knew satan was going to trick those people, after all hes all-knowing. So god probably just wanted it to happen. Or hes just plain daft.


give me a while to thinki of something to counter that HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
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Posted 4/18/08
Um, you are getting your conception of satan through concepts, not the scriptures. That satan was the serpent is a theological theory, only truly indicated in the revelation of john. Besides, some people take it the first books in the bible are just legends or allegories anyway.

About the origin of satan, nothing is "known". There are indications at some places, like the revelation again (a very convinient book to explain a lot of accepted dogmas in the church, isn't it?) and Enoch. There are indications that satan was an angel. As to why it fell in grace, that is unclear, that is: the scriptures don't match. Was it powerplay? Did it leave to have sex with humans? Was it thown out? What? Not clear. And that satan was created by god, is that true? Where does it say? By the way, how did god know what satan would do? Where is the indication? I may only have read the bible once, but I can not reacll this at all. References please.
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Posted 4/18/08 , edited 4/18/08

jestorebo wrote:

Um, you are getting your conception of satan through concepts, not the scriptures. That satan was the serpent is a theological theory, only truly indicated in the revelation of john. Besides, some people take it the first books in the bible are just legends or allegories anyway.


How do you pick and choose which stories are legends and which not? Was jezus also just a legend?


About the origin of satan, nothing is "known". There are indications at some places, like the revelation again (a very convinient book to explain a lot of accepted dogmas in the church, isn't it?) and Enoch. There are indications that satan was an angel. As to why it fell in grace, that is unclear, that is: the scriptures don't match. Was it powerplay? Did it leave to have sex with humans? Was it thown out? What? Not clear. And that satan was created by god, is that true? Where does it say?


Isn't god the alpha and omega the beginning of everything and the end of everything? If so he must have created everything, including satan.


By the way, how did god know what satan would do? Where is the indication? I may only have read the bible once, but I can not reacll this at all. References please.


If god is all-knowing he would have know satan would turn on him. If he didn't he is not all knowing/powerfull.
Posted 4/18/08

Archangel768 wrote:

plus if satan didn't trick humans into eating the fruit then God would never of had to kill people or let people die
so in it's really satan's fault for people dying. i really think satan is the saddest idiotic thing ever i mean seriously wth is wrong with him!!!?? he knew how powerful God was and still chose to go against him omg hahahaha he knew that God is unbeatable HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHA



It looks like someone here is ignoring a very important part about Satan. Satan was de facto a part of God.
Plus, God seems not to be enough powerful to change us into good people without killing us, as killing will only lead to sadness and sorrow wich would also lead to hatred and more killings. Meh, it looks like God is a very poor being in itself as he is unable to manage anything the proper way.

And you said that Satan influences people to do bad things, but in the end it wasn't Satan who killed them, it was GOD!!

Floetry~
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Posted 4/18/08 , edited 4/18/08

MidnightZorya wrote:


Archangel768 wrote:

plus if satan didn't trick humans into eating the fruit then God would never of had to kill people or let people die
so in it's really satan's fault for people dying. i really think satan is the saddest idiotic thing ever i mean seriously wth is wrong with him!!!?? he knew how powerful God was and still chose to go against him omg hahahaha he knew that God is unbeatable HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHA



It looks like someone here is ignoring a very important part about Satan. Satan was de facto a part of God.
Plus, God seems not to be enough powerful to change us into good people without killing us, as killing will only lead to sadness and sorrow wich would also lead to hatred and more killings. Meh, it looks like God is a very poor being in itself as he is unable to manage anything the proper way.

And you said that Satan influences people to do bad things, but in the end it wasn't Satan who killed them, it was GOD!!

Floetry~


but it was satan that made it the way it was that God had to kill them
but i think that people going to hell is ridiculous hahaha
Posted 4/18/08

Archangel768 wrote:


MidnightZorya wrote:


Archangel768 wrote:

plus if satan didn't trick humans into eating the fruit then God would never of had to kill people or let people die
so in it's really satan's fault for people dying. i really think satan is the saddest idiotic thing ever i mean seriously wth is wrong with him!!!?? he knew how powerful God was and still chose to go against him omg hahahaha he knew that God is unbeatable HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHA



It looks like someone here is ignoring a very important part about Satan. Satan was de facto a part of God.
Plus, God seems not to be enough powerful to change us into good people without killing us, as killing will only lead to sadness and sorrow wich would also lead to hatred and more killings. Meh, it looks like God is a very poor being in itself as he is unable to manage anything the proper way.

And you said that Satan influences people to do bad things, but in the end it wasn't Satan who killed them, it was GOD!!

Floetry~


but it was satan that made it the way it was that God had to kill them
but i think that people going to hell is ridiculous hahaha


If God is that powerful, beyond every logical conclusions, then why the heck did he need to kill them? O_O If he is that powerful, he could have avoided the killing process and could have done something more peaceful with his power...That's where God as an allmighty being fails, IMO.

Floetry~
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Posted 4/18/08
According to the bible:

Satan is the cost of death.

But God is the savior from death.

=)

but yeah, if you read the old testement, God is the one whom killed more, but all of those deaths are CAUSED by satan. In other words; satan killed more beacsue his the CAUSE...

its like saying I used a knife to kill a...BUG, who's the killer of the bug? me or the knife? =)
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Posted 4/18/08

MidnightZorya wrote:


Archangel768 wrote:


MidnightZorya wrote:


Archangel768 wrote:

plus if satan didn't trick humans into eating the fruit then God would never of had to kill people or let people die
so in it's really satan's fault for people dying. i really think satan is the saddest idiotic thing ever i mean seriously wth is wrong with him!!!?? he knew how powerful God was and still chose to go against him omg hahahaha he knew that God is unbeatable HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHA



It looks like someone here is ignoring a very important part about Satan. Satan was de facto a part of God.
Plus, God seems not to be enough powerful to change us into good people without killing us, as killing will only lead to sadness and sorrow wich would also lead to hatred and more killings. Meh, it looks like God is a very poor being in itself as he is unable to manage anything the proper way.

And you said that Satan influences people to do bad things, but in the end it wasn't Satan who killed them, it was GOD!!

Floetry~


but it was satan that made it the way it was that God had to kill them
but i think that people going to hell is ridiculous hahaha


If God is that powerful, beyond every logical conclusions, then why the heck did he need to kill them? O_O If he is that powerful, he could have avoided the killing process and could have done something more peaceful with his power...That's where God as an allmighty being fails, IMO.

Floetry~


ask him urself and u'll get a better answer
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Posted 4/18/08 , edited 4/18/08
pedro: - I am not behind that conclusion. However, there are theologians that marks a differenece between stories passed on only in oral tradition, and stories that were written pretty close to the event. It is not illogical. Historians too, give less significanse to oral tradition.
- Surely, there is no end in christianity. Blissful eternity, damned for all eternity. No endings. The word was first I seem to remember. If you are first, you have created everything? Really? So the one that created the first computer, created all? The one that created the first car, created all? I don't really follow that logic. Why must it be so?
-How do you know satan turned on god? Where is the reference? I do not know this reference. And why must god be all-knowing? Where is THAT reference?

Midnight: if the origin of satan is unknown, as a bible encyplodia is well as a regular one has told me, how do you know satan was a part of god?
People are at many points given warnings. The bible is full of them. Also, guidance is given. Is god to be blamed, that people are not doing as told? How much leninience to we humans give each other? People in prison have been clearly warned through law, are society to be blamed that they did not hear.
"Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all my councel, and would have none of my reproof.......then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer....for that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the lord....but whoso hearkenth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil" (proverbs). cut out are indications of what happens to "strayers". God rarely speaks of lenience. You are supposed to obey. He is not santa claus, granting gifts because he's nice. He clearly states so. It is not god that is supposed to manage, it is not a boss. It is humans that are supposed to manage themselves, obeying the word. Managing skills doesn't come into it. Directives are given, guidance is given, sometimes rewards. But it is up to people to obey or not. From the books of moses it is described as mercy that god does not slay people, that the pact is obeyed by god, that god still gives guidance, et cetera. Not that god is good from a humanistic point of view. And killing people is not the only punishment. How many times do god kill people according to the scriptures? Soddom and Gomorra, Noah, Egypt, are the only times I can remember right now. Not much for someone claiming : "I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment" (Isaiah). Satan influencing people to do bad things? Hm. And where is THAT from? I know about some might-be indications, but nothing that clearly states it to be so.

Omok: where is THAT from? I have no idea.
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