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A Quick Question
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Posted 4/20/08

My mind tells me though that your religion is false. If I rely on myself everything in me points me to athiesm as the only logical answer.


With Christianity, you don't rely on yourself, you rely only on God and Jesus.


You don't get it. I read the bible , and I prayed. No matter what I do my faith is not popping into existence out of nowhere. I can not force myself to have faith


True, you can't force yourself to believe and, true, faith won't come from nowhere. You can't just read and pray and expect everything to be right, though. You have to believe with everything you have. You can't doubt the Lord.
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Posted 4/20/08
If you don't believe in God, then there really isn't anything that we can say to convince you otherwise. True, faith is built upon a relationship of trust. Trust between two people or God and mankind.

Logic certainly is against Christians, right? Who would ever believe that miracles could ever occur? I mean most people have never seen people walking on water, turning water to wine, feeding 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, dying on the cross, coming back to life, and ascending to heaven. I mean, logic certainly would be against these things happening.

If none of these things happened, why didn't the Pharisees dispute them during the disciples' ministry when they spoke of Jesus and his wonders? Why did they have to bring false witnesses against a number of the disciples, and Jesus himself, when they were executed?

My answer: Because they could not bring a true witness against the disciples. Oh they happened, and miracles in modern times happen also. You just have to know where to look.

On a side note, human logic is...flawed. Logic would state that a group of 13 colonies with little or no military experience could take on the world's greatest army of the time. At one time, everyone "knew" that the stars weren't giant balls of fire millions of miles away. Everyone believed, at one time, the world was flat. The world had an end where people would fall into a horrible abyss of nothingness. Human history has shown repeated examples of human logic failing each time it is used.
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Posted 4/20/08

clearwateralchemist wrote:

If you don't believe in God, then there really isn't anything that we can say to convince you otherwise. True, faith is built upon a relationship of trust. Trust between two people or God and mankind.

Logic certainly is against Christians, right? Who would ever believe that miracles could ever occur? I mean most people have never seen people walking on water, turning water to wine, feeding 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, dying on the cross, coming back to life, and ascending to heaven. I mean, logic certainly would be against these things happening.

If none of these things happened, why didn't the Pharisees dispute them during the disciples' ministry when they spoke of Jesus and his wonders? Why did they have to bring false witnesses against a number of the disciples, and Jesus himself, when they were executed?
There is little evidence those events occurred.




My answer: Because they could not bring a true witness against the disciples. Oh they happened, and miracles in modern times happen also. You just have to know where to look.

On a side note, human logic is...flawed. Logic would state that a group of 13 colonies with little or no military experience could take on the world's greatest army of the time. At one time, everyone "knew" that the stars weren't giant balls of fire millions of miles away. Everyone believed, at one time, the world was flat.
Actually people knew it was round in ancient Greece. That is a common misconception based on the opinion of uneducated Europeans who did think it was flat




. The world had an end where people would fall into a horrible abyss of nothingness. Human history has shown repeated examples of human logic failing each time it is used.

Logic, reason, and science are the only ways I can accept things. Faith is worse than logic ever could be in a lot of ways, though I admit it most likely makes things better.
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Posted 4/20/08 , edited 4/20/08



If you don't believe in God, then there really isn't anything that we can say to convince you otherwise. True, faith is built upon a relationship of trust. Trust between two people or God and mankind.

Logic certainly is against Christians, right? Who would ever believe that miracles could ever occur? I mean most people have never seen people walking on water, turning water to wine, feeding 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, dying on the cross, coming back to life, and ascending to heaven. I mean, logic certainly would be against these things happening.

If none of these things happened, why didn't the Pharisees dispute them during the disciples' ministry when they spoke of Jesus and his wonders? Why did they have to bring false witnesses against a number of the disciples, and Jesus himself, when they were executed? There is little evidence those events occurred.


There is a lot of evidence that those people existed. Better than some of the more well known people in history.




My answer: Because they could not bring a true witness against the disciples. Oh they happened, and miracles in modern times happen also. You just have to know where to look.

On a side note, human logic is...flawed. Logic would state that a group of 13 colonies with little or no military experience could take on the world's greatest army of the time. At one time, everyone "knew" that the stars weren't giant balls of fire millions of miles away. Everyone believed, at one time, the world was flat. Actually people knew it was round in ancient Greece. That is a common misconception based on the opinion of uneducated Europeans who did think it was flat


Correct, at least to my knowledge. I retract the word "Everyone." However, It's still true that logic has failed mankind, because many people believed at one time the wold was flat. Scholars knew, but many sailors and captains didn't. Hence, America wasn't discovered for several hundred years.



The world had an end where people would fall into a horrible abyss of nothingness. Human history has shown repeated examples of human logic failing each time it is used.
Logic, reason, and science are the only ways I can accept things. Faith is worse than logic ever could be in a lot of ways, though I admit it most likely makes things better.


Is it not an act of faith every time we walk into a building. We are standing, or sitting, under several tons of material. If the supports fail, the roof could collapse, and there's a high chance we would die. Older buildings in danger of such failure are replaced quickly, but catostrophic failure has been known to occur. I watched a video on catostrophic building failure. It wasn't pretty.

Faith is powerful, and dangerous. If someone had faith that they could walk on thin air, I would bet money that they would fall if they tested that faith. However, faith can be rewarded sometimes as well. A person could be well rewarded for completing a long term project. Faith in God will also be rewarded, if you just stick with him.
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Posted 4/20/08


clearwateralchemist wrote:

If you don't believe in God, then there really isn't anything that we can say to convince you otherwise. True, faith is built upon a relationship of trust. Trust between two people or God and mankind.

Logic certainly is against Christians, right? Who would ever believe that miracles could ever occur? I mean most people have never seen people walking on water, turning water to wine, feeding 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, dying on the cross, coming back to life, and ascending to heaven. I mean, logic certainly would be against these things happening.

If none of these things happened, why didn't the Pharisees dispute them during the disciples' ministry when they spoke of Jesus and his wonders? Why did they have to bring false witnesses against a number of the disciples, and Jesus himself, when they were executed?
There is little evidence those events occurred.

Oh can your prove that they did not. I mean historical documents of the time and ect. Was and is Jesus real. Yes there is historical documents writen by the Romans and they had no interest in promoting a New rel. in fact they did every thing in their power to stamp Christ Rel. out.
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Posted 4/20/08

Ratman21 wrote:

There is little evidence those events occurred.

Oh can your prove that they did not. I mean historical documents of the time and ect.

That is a logical fallacy known as appealing to ignorance. Something is not correct just because it has not been proven wrong.



Was and is Jesus real. Yes there is historical documents writen by the Romans and they had no interest in promoting a New rel. in fact they did every thing in their power to stamp Christ Rel. out.


Of the Roman writers only two mention Jesus, both of whom lived years after he was supposedly alive. He is not mentioned by roman historians, or by anyone else who would have lived when he did.
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Posted 4/20/08
You are very sure on this? But, have you checked deeper? Are you 100% sure your right? Is there any real questions on your lack of beleiving? Have you done any real research? Are you Sure there is nothing out there for us? Why can you not believe that there is a loving God, that cares about you? Mankind has done some dumb things in general and you want to rely on man made logic?
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Posted 4/20/08 , edited 4/20/08
^_^ let me ask you one thing...if you don't believe in a God/creator then what's the purpose in your life? what gives you hope to keep living day after day if you have nothing to look forward to?

"Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless." Betrand Russell, atheist

"For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible,...everything got started in him an finds its purpose in him." Colossians1:16

"Without God, life makes no sense" The Purpose Driven Life

Also, faith is what drives Christianity and even life in general. Have you ever seen an atom? Then how do you know it exists? Just because a whole bunch of theories that come together to make laws. Society as a whole is blindly following a whole bunch of rules made up by people they've never met! You say science is logical and has been proven but so has Christianity! Many things that are in the Bible, proverbs, prophesies, and etc are proven over and over again. The Bible wasn't just written by a whole bunch of shepards waiting for something to do! It was molded by the hands of God to guide us and be our safe haven in times of trouble. There is power in the name of Jesus and that fact cannot be denied.

I really want to know what's ur view on this?
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Posted 4/21/08
Amen to that.
i just don't get y u get defensive if u'r curious who our God is.
We might not knw everything that hve happened but that's what faith is all about. That's where we're tested...you can check out hebrews 11 if u wanna knw more about Christian faith^^
i'm just thankful that i'm still receiving God's amazing grace, ya knw?...proof? i'm still alive right now...hehe
God bless ya'll
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Posted 4/21/08

AburaiRukia wrote:

^_^ let me ask you one thing...if you don't believe in a God/creator then what's the purpose in your life? what gives you hope to keep living day after day if you have nothing to look forward to?



What purpose do you get from believing in god then?
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Posted 4/21/08 , edited 4/21/08

AburaiRukia wrote:

^_^ let me ask you one thing...if you don't believe in a God/creator then what's the purpose in your life? what gives you hope to keep living day after day if you have nothing to look forward to?

"Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless." Betrand Russell, atheist

"For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible,...everything got started in him an finds its purpose in him." Colossians1:16

"Without God, life makes no sense" The Purpose Driven Life
Life has no ultimate purpose that’s true, but it does have whatever meaning and purpose we inject into it. I think that is more than enough. Bertrand Russell means that asking what the ultimate purpose of life has no meaning, as the universe has no meaning but what is created by us.




Also, faith is what drives Christianity and even life in general. Have you ever seen an atom? Then how do you know it exists? Just because a whole bunch of theories that come together to make laws.
Le sigh. There are a million ways to prove atoms exist. Open a textbook.



Society as a whole is blindly following a whole bunch of rules made up by people they've never met! You say science is logical and has been proven but so has Christianity!
No it has not.




Many things that are in the Bible, proverbs, prophesies, and etc are proven over and over again. The Bible wasn't just written by a whole bunch of shepards waiting for something to do! It was molded by the hands of God to guide us and be our safe haven in times of trouble. There is power in the name of Jesus and that fact cannot be denied.

I really want to know what's ur view on this?


Present your proof, and vague prophecies that can be interpreted a million ways do not count, nor do self fulfilling prophecies.





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Posted 4/21/08
I also would say that Bertrand Russell is the LAST person you want brought into this discussion. Here is a in context quote by him him:

It is possible that mankind is on the threshold of a golden age; but, if so, it will be necessary first to slay the dragon that guards the door, and this dragon is religion. - Bertrand Russell
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Posted 4/21/08
Well you obviously don't care about what I say enough to take it into consideration so I'm going to stop here...unless you have any questions?
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Posted 4/21/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


AburaiRukia wrote:

^_^ let me ask you one thing...if you don't believe in a God/creator then what's the purpose in your life? what gives you hope to keep living day after day if you have nothing to look forward to?

"Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless." Betrand Russell, atheist

"For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible,...everything got started in him an finds its purpose in him." Colossians1:16

"Without God, life makes no sense" The Purpose Driven Life
Life has no ultimate purpose that’s true, but it does have whatever meaning and purpose we inject into it. I think that is more than enough. Bertrand Russell means that asking what the ultimate purpose of life has no meaning, as the universe has no meaning but what is created by us.




Also, faith is what drives Christianity and even life in general. Have you ever seen an atom? Then how do you know it exists? Just because a whole bunch of theories that come together to make laws.
Le sigh. There are a million ways to prove atoms exist.
Open a textbook.

How about how life started? How many theories are there? And she asked have you ever seen an atom? You rely on what others have told you, haven you? If look into what a atom is, you will find many therories (some proven to be true, some not and yet to be proven). I remember the electron shell theorie, which has been proven to be in error but, is still used teach studens (By way of the atomic chart of elements).



Society as a whole is blindly following a whole bunch of rules made up by people they've never met! You say science is logical and has been proven but so has Christianity!

No it has not.

What that science has not been proven or that Jesus teachings have not?



Many things that are in the Bible, proverbs, prophesies, and etc are proven over and over again. The Bible wasn't just written by a whole bunch of shepards waiting for something to do! It was molded by the hands of God to guide us and be our safe haven in times of trouble. There is power in the name of Jesus and that fact cannot be denied.

I really want to know what's ur view on this?


Present your proof, and vague prophecies that can be interpreted a million ways do not count, nor do self fulfilling prophecies.







vague prophecies? submit your proof?
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Posted 4/22/08
be openminded.......... dont trust on logic too much...... as you said. logic is true for you.

ok then, how would you know that logic is true when it is made by man and could possibly be flawed.
you claim that religion is flawed because religion is made by man.
then what makes logic true?

ok lets say...evidences thru time...because of logic meaning "correct thinking"
it makes all religions false since you cannot see of cannot hear God.
or what makes this particular religion true?? when just because it is unique dosent possibly make it true.

keep in mind logic will have flaws and not all flaws can be traced as a fallacy. logical flaws in an argument is also a cause of the resoning process and also the attitude of the person and how they approach the subject ,matter.

there is also that when we claim something, we tend to back it up with eveidences.
ok now, we have given you evidences concerning our feelings... our experiences... but you tend to knock it off the topic since you cant "feel" our feelings. ok, in nursing? that is like saying to a patient....

nurse: (seeing no bruises, no scars or anything looking at the patients body but is manefesting pain in his facial expression)
patient: i feel bad..... its painful! pianful! pls cure me!
nurse: id ont belive you. there is no physical evidence that your in pain.......
(the patient in this scenario is having muscle and mentrual cramps and the blood is not coming out yet)

>>that is what youre doing<<
not taking to account the feelings of the patient because you dont see anything. except rhet are in pain....

this is what youre asking:
nurse:(seeing blood dripping from an open wound from the abdomen causing paleness from the patient
patient: im hurting....
nurse: looking at the other patient) now this is real emergency.

that is you. as a nurse....

>>keep in mind<< when it comes to logic: evidence to support our claim is best BUT it is not absolutely required
(im saying this cause you turn the other cheek from the evidence we try to present to you)
youre asking for a PERFECT religion so that you can believe it..but logic states.. nothing is ever perfect.
(and again i point out, logical flaws is also the attitude of someone concerning on how they approach the subject matter)

-------------------
but really all im saying here is be open minded.... cause it wont get anywhere.......
so if you want to really know about Christianity... be not biased about it.. we know youre an athiest..we still love you tho... :
but if youre always saying no, no, no, no, no... how would you appreciate that?

its just like saying..... i want to love the culture of my country but its soo wrong... and its so old....

i dont know if im helping or anything...... so i may erase this if ever..cause this might cause a new arguement..
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