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Can a meaningful romantic relationship exist between an adult and a child?
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not sharing my asl
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yes but no sex plz
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Posted 9/23/12
Depends first on the age.

Then, to what the adult thinks and will do. If it's not to overpower the child and use it, it's not right. But if he shows him/her the way, kinda like a father, teach him slowly what X and Y thing is with the RIGHT way (not starting to touch him/her and say "I'll teach you what's sex" nononono). Also, the child musn't be naive and all innocent. He/She must have a minimum of maturity and consciousness of the world surrounding him/her! Some can be very mature, but as every child they lack the maturity. All those facts depend if it's right or not and as all of those facts are very rare to be accomplished at once, I understand plainly why it's illegal.
Posted 9/24/12 , edited 9/24/12

Chekchis wrote:

Depends first on the age.

Then, to what the adult thinks and will do. If it's not to overpower the child and use it, it's not right. But if he shows him/her the way, kinda like a father, teach him slowly what X and Y thing is with the RIGHT way (not starting to touch him/her and say "I'll teach you what's sex" nononono). Also, the child musn't be naive and all innocent. He/She must have a minimum of maturity and consciousness of the world surrounding him/her! Some can be very mature, but as every child they lack the maturity. All those facts depend if it's right or not and as all of those facts are very rare to be accomplished at once, I understand plainly why it's illegal.
Well, the real problem here isn't one of legality. Since there has been unrealistic Canadian family laws about the legal age of marriage("all but one Province requires that a couple be 18 in order to marry without parental permission"), without the Canadian legislation to consider the reality of humans' brain development. When the fact is a person's brain is still very much an adolescent before age "20's and 30's".

So many labs around the world are involved in this kind of research, and we now have a really rich and detailed picture of how the living human brain develops, and this picture has radically changed the way we think about human brain development by revealing that it's not all over in early childhood, and instead, the brain continues to develop right throughout adolescence and into the '20s and '30s.

So adolescence is defined as the period of life that starts with the biological, hormonal, physical changes of puberty and ends at the age at which an individual attains a stable, independent role in society.
-Sarah-Jayne Blakemore: The mysterious workings of the adolescent brain
So as you can see, the complexity of this problem isn't a simple yes or no, when it's in fact a mismatch between what science came to know about the reality of the human condition, and our legal definition of "adulthood", as well as our symbolic sense of "meaning" and "romantic".

Let's start with the relatively simple reality about "romantic love", and the biology of human relationship involving the addictive and obsessive personality.

I started out by trying to figure out what romantic love was by looking at the last 45 years of research on -- just the psychological research -- and as it turns out, there's a very specific group of things that happen when you fall in love. The first thing that happens is what I call -- a person begins to take on what I call, "special meaning." As a truck driver once said to me, he said, "The world had a new center, and that center was Mary Anne."

George Bernard Shaw said it a little differently. He said, "Love consists of overestimating the differences between one woman and another." And indeed, that's what we do. And then you just focus on this person. You can list what you don't like about them, but then you sweep that aside and focus on what you do. As Chaucer said, "Love is blind."

In trying to understand romantic love, I decided I would read poetry from all over the world, and I just want to give you one very short poem from eighth-century China, because it's an almost perfect example of a man who is focused totally on a particular woman. It's a little bit like when you are madly in love with somebody and you walk into a parking lot -- their car is different from every other car in the parking lot. Their wine glass at dinner is different from every other wine glass at the dinner party. And in this case, a man got hooked on a bamboo sleeping mat.

And it goes like this. It's by a guy called Yuan Chen: "I cannot bear to put away the bamboo sleeping mat. The night I brought you home, I watched you roll it out." He became hooked on a sleeping mat, probably because of elevated activity of dopamine in his brain, just like with you and me.

But anyway, not only does this person take on special meaning, you focus your attention on them. You aggrandize them. But you have intense energy. As one Polynesian said, he said, "I felt like jumping in the sky." You're up all night. You're walking till dawn. You feel intense elation when things are going well; mood swings into horrible despair when things are going poorly. Real dependence on this person. As one businessman in New York said to me, he said, "Anything she liked, I liked." Simple. Romantic love is very simple.

You become extremely sexually possessive. You know, if you're just sleeping with somebody casually, you don't really care if they're sleeping with somebody else. But the moment you fall in love, you become extremely sexually possessive of them. I think that that is a Darwinian -- there's a Darwinian purpose to this. The whole point of this is to pull two people together strongly enough to begin to rear babies as a team.

But the main characteristics of romantic love are craving: an intense craving to be with a particular person, not just sexually, but emotionally. You'd much rather -- it would be nice to go to bed with them, but you want them to call you on the telephone, to invite you out, etc., to tell you that they love you. The other main characteristic is motivation. The motor in your brain begins to crank, and you want this person.

And last but not least, it is an obsession. When I put these people in the machine, before I put them in the MRI machine, I would ask them all kinds of questions. But my most important question was always the same. It was: "What percentage of the day and night do you think about this person?" And indeed, they would say, "All day. All night. I can never stop thinking about him or her."

And then, the very last question I would ask them -- I would always have to work myself up to this question, because I am not a psychologist. I don't work with people in any kind of traumatic situation. And my final question was always the same. I would say, "Would you die for him or her?" And, indeed, these people would say "Yes!" as if I had asked them to pass the salt. I was just staggered by it.

So we scanned their brains, looking at a photograph of their sweetheart and looking at a neutral photograph, with a distraction task in between. So we could look at the same brain when it was in that heightened state and when it was in a resting state. And we found activity in a lot of brain regions. In fact, one of the most important was a brain region that becomes active when you feel the rush of cocaine. And indeed, that's exactly what happens.

I began to realize that romantic love is not an emotion. In fact, I had always thought it was a series of emotions, from very high to very low. But actually, it's a drive. It comes from the motor of the mind, the wanting part of the mind, the craving part of the mind. The kind of mind -- part of the mind -- when you're reaching for that piece of chocolate, when you want to win that promotion at work. The motor of the brain. It's a drive.

And in fact, I think it's more powerful than the sex drive. You know, if you ask somebody to go to bed with you, and they say, "No, thank you," you certainly don't kill yourself or slip into a clinical depression. But certainly, around the world, people who are rejected in love will kill for it. People live for love. They kill for love. They die for love. They have songs, poems, novels, sculptures, paintings, myths, legends. In over 175 societies, people have left their evidence of this powerful brain system. I have come to think it's one of the most powerful brain systems on earth for both great joy and great sorrow.
-Helen Fisher: The science of love, and the future of women
So never mind about the hypothetical child in question here, when the reality is that even adults in romantic love relation are crazier than cats in heat. And here's why.

Whenever we thought about the symbol for romantic love, the concept of a diamond ring comes to mind. But that's not always been the case to be, until 1938 through the power of marketing, the symbolic gesture of love was rewritten by this simple corporate cultural catchphrase "A Diamond is Forever".

And this is the power of manipulating the human condition known as "associative memory", through the method of "framing" as a powerful suggestion and perception management.

Some of our best creative minds are employed to create illusions that divert us from the real issues and manufacture our consent. Beyond their products, the corporation sells us the idea of a better way of life and produces propaganda that affirms their power as necessary for human progress.
-THE CORPORATION [12/23] Perception Management
You may believe that aside from our "crazy crazy love" craze, we're consciously in control of our own decision-making process, but the reality is not even close to what you were told to believe.

Now think about what this means. We wake up in the morning and we feel we make decisions. We wake up in the morning and we open the closet and we feel that we decide what to wear. And we open the refrigerator and we feel that we decide what to eat. What this is actually saying is that much of these decisions are not residing within us. They are residing in the person who is designing that form. When you walk into the DMV, the person who designed the form will have a huge influence on what you'll end up doing. Now it's also very hard to intuit these results. Think about it for yourself. How many of you believe that if you went to renew your license tomorrow, and you went to the DMV, and you would encounter one of these forms, that it would actually change your own behavior? Very, very hard to think that you will influence us. We can say, "Oh, these funny Europeans, of course it would influence them." But when it comes to us, we have such a feeling that we are at the driver's seat, we have such a feeling that we are in control, and we are making the decision, that it's very hard to even accept the idea that we actually have an illusion of making a decision, rather than an actual decision.

Now, you might say, "These are decisions we don't care about." In fact, by definition, these are decisions about something that will happen to us after we die. How could we care about something less than something that happens after we die? So a standard economist, someone who believes in rationality, would say, "You know what? The cost of lifting the pencil and marking a V is higher than the possible benefit of the decision, so that's why we get this effect." But, in fact, it's not because it's easy. It's not because it's trivial. It's not because we don't care. It's the opposite. It's because we care. It's difficult and it's complex. And it's so complex that we don't know what to do. And because we have no idea what to do we just pick whatever it was that was chosen for us.
-Dan Ariely asks, Are we in control of our decisions?

So the fact is, all those so-called facts you were demanding were actually a list of unrealistic expectations and assumptions that we believed about ourselves without question. And since a lot of our laws that governs our civil engagements are still based on these assumptions that we just took for granted, we're constantly creating more problems by ourselves kept measuring up with this unrealistic expectation of a "mature adult" myth; a worldview that disregards the reality of our cognitive limitations and vulnerabilities, which are a part of our human conditions and humanity.
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Posted 9/25/12
No, I don't think so. How does a child who is still learning determine whether or not they should consent to sex. They are still learning. I don't think they fully quite grasp the concept of consequences.

And this isn't just for really young children either, I'm talking 15/16 and what not. They don't know what love is, they'd jump at anything that gives them attention and makes them feel older.

It's wrong to manipulate, and I believe that's exactly what you would be doing.
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Posted 9/30/12
do u mean like if theyre 10 and the other 30... then no... it seems too awkward...
but my parents said i should marry someone 10 years older than me and so if i was ten they wold be twenty,.,,, it seriously sounds awkward ==.. i mean at that age we havent even finished learing our timestables as of yet !? but i guess if the child was 20 and the other 30, it would be okay, but personally anything greater than a ten year agegap is...
but there would be a great generation gap,, so would they actually be able to understand eachother due to this
Posted 9/30/12 , edited 9/30/12

chocolatepigz wrote:

do u mean like if theyre 10 and the other 30... then no... it seems too awkward...
but my parents said i should marry someone 10 years older than me and so if i was ten they wold be twenty,.,,, it seriously sounds awkward ==.. i mean at that age we havent even finished learing our timestables as of yet !? but i guess if the child was 20 and the other 30, it would be okay, but personally anything greater than a ten year agegap is...
but there would be a great generation gap,, so would they actually be able to understand eachother due to this
I've seen rich and powerful men treating their wives like status symbols with an expiry date, so why don't you see for yourself if you can understand the world according to the ones who can afford to choose how to manage their marriage status, by the company that they want to keep. And not because of their mutually exclusive romantic drive for each others.
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Posted 10/1/12 , edited 10/1/12
All relationships, as the wise Marx taught, are, fundamentally, economic ones. Thus, it follows that the only paedophillic relationship of any value is one where the service of one partner is exchanged for a something the other can provide. This is also, however, an exploitative relationship- the person who provides the service must get less satisfaction than one who is receiving the service, else the other person would not be able to profit from it- this is what is meant by 'Surplus labour'. Thus, we see clearly that while there is a meaningful relationship, this relationship amounts to little more than a parasitic relationship, to put it in more opprobrious, vehement, and strident terms, whoring of labour.
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Posted 10/10/12
Firstly it's important to make a distinction between a romantic relationship and a sexual one. A romantic relationship involves an emotional attachment where as a sexual relationship is fueled more by what a person find physically attractive. Considering young adult (let alone children) are still developing mentally far into their mid twenties I would say it is not possible. That being said I think it is perfectly possible for someone older to fall in love with someone younger. Say the guy is 25 and the girl is 15, however there is a difference between having romantic feelings and acting on those. If someone has such strong feelings it shouldn't matter to wait three years before doing anything.

That being said Pedophiles are sexually stimulated by the physical appearance of children. It is a purely physical attraction because once the child reaches a certain age they cease to have an appeal to such people. So in short I don't think that is something that could ever be possible.
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Posted 10/10/12

crazyfirefly wrote:

Firstly it's important to make a distinction between a romantic relationship and a sexual one. A romantic relationship involves an emotional attachment where as a sexual relationship is fueled more by what a person find physically attractive. Considering young adult (let alone children) are still developing mentally far into their mid twenties I would say it is not possible. That being said I think it is perfectly possible for someone older to fall in love with someone younger. Say the guy is 25 and the girl is 15, however there is a difference between having romantic feelings and acting on those. If someone has such strong feelings it shouldn't matter to wait three years before doing anything.

That being said Pedophiles are sexually stimulated by the physical appearance of children. It is a purely physical attraction because once the child reaches a certain age they cease to have an appeal to such people. So in short I don't think that is something that could ever be possible.


Please make that distinction, what is a romantic relationship and how is it separate from a sexual one?
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Posted 10/11/12

longfenglim wrote:


crazyfirefly wrote:

Firstly it's important to make a distinction between a romantic relationship and a sexual one. A romantic relationship involves an emotional attachment where as a sexual relationship is fueled more by what a person find physically attractive. Considering young adult (let alone children) are still developing mentally far into their mid twenties I would say it is not possible. That being said I think it is perfectly possible for someone older to fall in love with someone younger. Say the guy is 25 and the girl is 15, however there is a difference between having romantic feelings and acting on those. If someone has such strong feelings it shouldn't matter to wait three years before doing anything.

That being said Pedophiles are sexually stimulated by the physical appearance of children. It is a purely physical attraction because once the child reaches a certain age they cease to have an appeal to such people. So in short I don't think that is something that could ever be possible.


Please make that distinction, what is a romantic relationship and how is it separate from a sexual one?


See the red text above
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Posted 10/11/12 , edited 10/11/12

crazyfirefly wrote:


longfenglim wrote:


crazyfirefly wrote:

Firstly it's important to make a distinction between a romantic relationship and a sexual one. A romantic relationship involves an emotional attachment where as a sexual relationship is fueled more by what a person find physically attractive. Considering young adult (let alone children) are still developing mentally far into their mid twenties I would say it is not possible. That being said I think it is perfectly possible for someone older to fall in love with someone younger. Say the guy is 25 and the girl is 15, however there is a difference between having romantic feelings and acting on those. If someone has such strong feelings it shouldn't matter to wait three years before doing anything.

That being said Pedophiles are sexually stimulated by the physical appearance of children. It is a purely physical attraction because once the child reaches a certain age they cease to have an appeal to such people. So in short I don't think that is something that could ever be possible.


Please make that distinction, what is a romantic relationship and how is it separate from a sexual one?


See the red text above


It is a vague and meaningless defintion, please define it more clearly. If you choose to define it vaguely, then, by your defintion a sexual relationship is merely a subset of romantic relationships, guided by the emotion of Lust, so, that being the case, yes, paedophilia is both emotional and romantic .

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Posted 10/11/12

longfenglim wrote:


crazyfirefly wrote:


longfenglim wrote:


crazyfirefly wrote:

Firstly it's important to make a distinction between a romantic relationship and a sexual one. A romantic relationship involves an emotional attachment where as a sexual relationship is fueled more by what a person find physically attractive. Considering young adult (let alone children) are still developing mentally far into their mid twenties I would say it is not possible. That being said I think it is perfectly possible for someone older to fall in love with someone younger. Say the guy is 25 and the girl is 15, however there is a difference between having romantic feelings and acting on those. If someone has such strong feelings it shouldn't matter to wait three years before doing anything.

That being said Pedophiles are sexually stimulated by the physical appearance of children. It is a purely physical attraction because once the child reaches a certain age they cease to have an appeal to such people. So in short I don't think that is something that could ever be possible.


Please make that distinction, what is a romantic relationship and how is it separate from a sexual one?


See the red text above


It is a vague and meaningless defintion, please define it more clearly. If you choose to define it vaguely, then, by your defintion a sexual relationship is merely a subset of romantic relationships, guided by the emotion of Lust, so, that being the case, yes, paedophilia is both emotional and romantic .



No it isn't. Actually it's pretty strait forward. If you find it meaningless I don't know what to tell you. It's never been in my nature to use more words than necessary to get my point across, its a waste of energy, time, and clutters the original message. Also lust isn't an emotion at all but rather an urge, like a craving for chocolate or the urge to take a nap.
Posted 10/11/12

crazyfirefly wrote:



No it isn't. Actually it's pretty strait forward. If you find it meaningless I don't know what to tell you. It's never been in my nature to use more words than necessary to get my point across, its a waste of energy, time, and clutters the original message. Also lust isn't an emotion at all but rather an urge, like a craving for chocolate or the urge to take a nap.
Yes, it is. And unless you've got the fMRI scans to prove otherwise, your opinion has no weight over empirical scientific data, on how human romantic love is an even stronger biological drive, that's even more addictive and obsessive than sexual urge.

I started out by trying to figure out what romantic love was by looking at the last 45 years of research on -- just the psychological research -- and as it turns out, there's a very specific group of things that happen when you fall in love. The first thing that happens is what I call -- a person begins to take on what I call, "special meaning." As a truck driver once said to me, he said, "The world had a new center, and that center was Mary Anne."

George Bernard Shaw said it a little differently. He said, "Love consists of overestimating the differences between one woman and another." And indeed, that's what we do. And then you just focus on this person. You can list what you don't like about them, but then you sweep that aside and focus on what you do. As Chaucer said, "Love is blind."

In trying to understand romantic love, I decided I would read poetry from all over the world, and I just want to give you one very short poem from eighth-century China, because it's an almost perfect example of a man who is focused totally on a particular woman. It's a little bit like when you are madly in love with somebody and you walk into a parking lot -- their car is different from every other car in the parking lot. Their wine glass at dinner is different from every other wine glass at the dinner party. And in this case, a man got hooked on a bamboo sleeping mat.

And it goes like this. It's by a guy called Yuan Chen: "I cannot bear to put away the bamboo sleeping mat. The night I brought you home, I watched you roll it out." He became hooked on a sleeping mat, probably because of elevated activity of dopamine in his brain, just like with you and me.

But anyway, not only does this person take on special meaning, you focus your attention on them. You aggrandize them. But you have intense energy. As one Polynesian said, he said, "I felt like jumping in the sky." You're up all night. You're walking till dawn. You feel intense elation when things are going well; mood swings into horrible despair when things are going poorly. Real dependence on this person. As one businessman in New York said to me, he said, "Anything she liked, I liked." Simple. Romantic love is very simple.

You become extremely sexually possessive. You know, if you're just sleeping with somebody casually, you don't really care if they're sleeping with somebody else. But the moment you fall in love, you become extremely sexually possessive of them. I think that that is a Darwinian -- there's a Darwinian purpose to this. The whole point of this is to pull two people together strongly enough to begin to rear babies as a team.

But the main characteristics of romantic love are craving: an intense craving to be with a particular person, not just sexually, but emotionally. You'd much rather -- it would be nice to go to bed with them, but you want them to call you on the telephone, to invite you out, etc., to tell you that they love you. The other main characteristic is motivation. The motor in your brain begins to crank, and you want this person.

And last but not least, it is an obsession. When I put these people in the machine, before I put them in the MRI machine, I would ask them all kinds of questions. But my most important question was always the same. It was: "What percentage of the day and night do you think about this person?" And indeed, they would say, "All day. All night. I can never stop thinking about him or her."

And then, the very last question I would ask them -- I would always have to work myself up to this question, because I am not a psychologist. I don't work with people in any kind of traumatic situation. And my final question was always the same. I would say, "Would you die for him or her?" And, indeed, these people would say "Yes!" as if I had asked them to pass the salt. I was just staggered by it.

So we scanned their brains, looking at a photograph of their sweetheart and looking at a neutral photograph, with a distraction task in between. So we could look at the same brain when it was in that heightened state and when it was in a resting state. And we found activity in a lot of brain regions. In fact, one of the most important was a brain region that becomes active when you feel the rush of cocaine. And indeed, that's exactly what happens.

I began to realize that romantic love is not an emotion. In fact, I had always thought it was a series of emotions, from very high to very low. But actually, it's a drive. It comes from the motor of the mind, the wanting part of the mind, the craving part of the mind. The kind of mind -- part of the mind -- when you're reaching for that piece of chocolate, when you want to win that promotion at work. The motor of the brain. It's a drive.

And in fact, I think it's more powerful than the sex drive. You know, if you ask somebody to go to bed with you, and they say, "No, thank you," you certainly don't kill yourself or slip into a clinical depression. But certainly, around the world, people who are rejected in love will kill for it. People live for love. They kill for love. They die for love. They have songs, poems, novels, sculptures, paintings, myths, legends. In over 175 societies, people have left their evidence of this powerful brain system. I have come to think it's one of the most powerful brain systems on earth for both great joy and great sorrow.

-Helen Fisher: The science of love, and the future of women
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DomFortress wrote:


crazyfirefly wrote:



No it isn't. Actually it's pretty strait forward. If you find it meaningless I don't know what to tell you. It's never been in my nature to use more words than necessary to get my point across, its a waste of energy, time, and clutters the original message. Also lust isn't an emotion at all but rather an urge, like a craving for chocolate or the urge to take a nap.
Yes, it is. And unless you've got the fMRI scans to prove otherwise, your opinion has no weight over empirical scientific data, on how human romantic love is an even stronger biological drive, that's even more addictive and obsessive than sexual urge.

I started out by trying to figure out what romantic love was by looking at the last 45 years of research on -- just the psychological research -- and as it turns out, there's a very specific group of things that happen when you fall in love. The first thing that happens is what I call -- a person begins to take on what I call, "special meaning." As a truck driver once said to me, he said, "The world had a new center, and that center was Mary Anne."

George Bernard Shaw said it a little differently. He said, "Love consists of overestimating the differences between one woman and another." And indeed, that's what we do. And then you just focus on this person. You can list what you don't like about them, but then you sweep that aside and focus on what you do. As Chaucer said, "Love is blind."

In trying to understand romantic love, I decided I would read poetry from all over the world, and I just want to give you one very short poem from eighth-century China, because it's an almost perfect example of a man who is focused totally on a particular woman. It's a little bit like when you are madly in love with somebody and you walk into a parking lot -- their car is different from every other car in the parking lot. Their wine glass at dinner is different from every other wine glass at the dinner party. And in this case, a man got hooked on a bamboo sleeping mat.

And it goes like this. It's by a guy called Yuan Chen: "I cannot bear to put away the bamboo sleeping mat. The night I brought you home, I watched you roll it out." He became hooked on a sleeping mat, probably because of elevated activity of dopamine in his brain, just like with you and me.

But anyway, not only does this person take on special meaning, you focus your attention on them. You aggrandize them. But you have intense energy. As one Polynesian said, he said, "I felt like jumping in the sky." You're up all night. You're walking till dawn. You feel intense elation when things are going well; mood swings into horrible despair when things are going poorly. Real dependence on this person. As one businessman in New York said to me, he said, "Anything she liked, I liked." Simple. Romantic love is very simple.

You become extremely sexually possessive. You know, if you're just sleeping with somebody casually, you don't really care if they're sleeping with somebody else. But the moment you fall in love, you become extremely sexually possessive of them. I think that that is a Darwinian -- there's a Darwinian purpose to this. The whole point of this is to pull two people together strongly enough to begin to rear babies as a team.

But the main characteristics of romantic love are craving: an intense craving to be with a particular person, not just sexually, but emotionally. You'd much rather -- it would be nice to go to bed with them, but you want them to call you on the telephone, to invite you out, etc., to tell you that they love you. The other main characteristic is motivation. The motor in your brain begins to crank, and you want this person.

And last but not least, it is an obsession. When I put these people in the machine, before I put them in the MRI machine, I would ask them all kinds of questions. But my most important question was always the same. It was: "What percentage of the day and night do you think about this person?" And indeed, they would say, "All day. All night. I can never stop thinking about him or her."

And then, the very last question I would ask them -- I would always have to work myself up to this question, because I am not a psychologist. I don't work with people in any kind of traumatic situation. And my final question was always the same. I would say, "Would you die for him or her?" And, indeed, these people would say "Yes!" as if I had asked them to pass the salt. I was just staggered by it.

So we scanned their brains, looking at a photograph of their sweetheart and looking at a neutral photograph, with a distraction task in between. So we could look at the same brain when it was in that heightened state and when it was in a resting state. And we found activity in a lot of brain regions. In fact, one of the most important was a brain region that becomes active when you feel the rush of cocaine. And indeed, that's exactly what happens.

I began to realize that romantic love is not an emotion. In fact, I had always thought it was a series of emotions, from very high to very low. But actually, it's a drive. It comes from the motor of the mind, the wanting part of the mind, the craving part of the mind. The kind of mind -- part of the mind -- when you're reaching for that piece of chocolate, when you want to win that promotion at work. The motor of the brain. It's a drive.

And in fact, I think it's more powerful than the sex drive. You know, if you ask somebody to go to bed with you, and they say, "No, thank you," you certainly don't kill yourself or slip into a clinical depression. But certainly, around the world, people who are rejected in love will kill for it. People live for love. They kill for love. They die for love. They have songs, poems, novels, sculptures, paintings, myths, legends. In over 175 societies, people have left their evidence of this powerful brain system. I have come to think it's one of the most powerful brain systems on earth for both great joy and great sorrow.

-Helen Fisher: The science of love, and the future of women


Firstly there are things in this world that science is perfectly capable of explaining and quantifying. The emotional workings of a human beings is hardly one of them. Lust by it's basic definition is a sexual craving or desire and in the case of a pedophile that is a craving for undeveloped bodies. Love is something else entirely. It transcends sexual attraction, logic, and reason and if you can't draw the distinction between lust and love it's your loss.

Posted 10/11/12

crazyfirefly wrote:



Firstly there are things in this world that science is perfectly capable of explaining and quantifying. The emotional workings of a human beings is hardly one of them. Lust by it's basic definition is a sexual craving or desire and in the case of a pedophile that is a craving for undeveloped bodies. Love is something else entirely. It transcends sexual attraction, logic, and reason and if you can't draw the distinction between lust and love it's your loss.
First, it's you who's blurring the difference between the symbolic ideal called unconditional love, and the romantic love drive that this thread referred to as "meaningful romantic relationship".

Second, science is qualified to explain and quantify our human emotions as a biochemical process/drive of our social brain. Which makes us no different than just another species of social animals. It's our shared social psychological limitation called "cognitive dissonance", that's making you denying reality.

Why Love Dies & Why We Stay in "Bad" Relationships

Dissatisfaction in our close relationships seems to stem in part from major discrepancies in individuals’ expectations of loving relationships and their realities. Neff and Karney (2005) provide a cognitive model of love based on global and specific trait perceptions to examine long-term relationship satisfaction, revealing that discrepancies between positive global attributions and negative specific traits may lead to relationship satisfaction decline. This work provides insight into the cognitive basis of love and an explanation of how love may change and even deteriorate over time. Similar to the ways in which negative emotional responses associated with perceptions of relationship experience adversely impact the entire relationship,the specific negative traits of romantic partners may interfere or even override the global attributions of how individuals view their partners (Neff & Karney, 2005). For example, the impression that our partner is always kind and generous may become challenged by specific encounters with our partner that seem to be unkind and ungenerous. Repeated actions of unkindness may generate a global or broad view of our partner as an unkind person. As multiple negative emotions reduce relationship decline, too many negative encounters that lead to changes in our global attributions of our mate leads to relationship decline. In this manner, individuals’ initial assessments of their partners attributes come in conflict with their daily experiences with their partners. This conflict creates cognitive discrepancies within interpersonal relationships.

Cognitive dissonance between relationship beliefs and experiences may be embodied within the scripts themselves. Cognitive scripts of the love of interpersonal relationships or love schemas represent the knowledge constructs of how interpersonal relationships should be conducted. These contrasts depend on personal experience, cultural backgrounds, and learned behaviors. As a result, individual perceptions of the relationships of others may be biased from our own love schemas. Differing love schemas contribute to our failures to accurately assess the relationships of others (Aloni & Bernieri, 2004) and determine adult romantic attachment patterns (Elwood & Williams, 2007). The implications of varying love schemas include the fact that the enhancement of relationship satisfaction may be best handled through individualized examination of cognitive love scripts rather than global relationship patterns and that the specific methods that are employed to reduce cognitive discrepancies in interpersonal relationships be evaluated in comparison with love schemas. Partners who maintain different love schemas maintain conflict related to the nature of their differing relationship constructs. Such problems may involve vastly different perceptions of the same event or one partner being more highly conscious of intimacy within the relationship (Fletcher, Rosanowski, & Fitness, 1994). These discrepancies seem to exist on a higher cognitive level of conflict resulting from the basic beliefs of what constituents interpersonal relationships.

The different and varied love schemas individuals maintain reflect the complexity of the factors and experiences that determine the development of particular love schemas. While there may exist general patterns in which specific experiences tend to generate certain emotions (Fitness & Fletcher, 1993) and general agreement on likeable qualities in potential mates (Neff & Karney, 2005), the different cognitive scripts of love may explain different responses or tolerance levels for negative emotions and the expectations of the number of such emotions in interpersonal relationships. Our close relationships remain determined by the accessible knowledge constructs that are generated from past experiences and beliefs (Fletcher, Rosanowski, & Fitness, 1994). These accessible knowledge constructs reveal themselves in our patterns and attitudes about relationships. Attitudes regarding close relationships may reflect commitment avoidance patterns or influences from social networks such as being in college that encourage the engagement of “friends with benefits” relationships that never lead to long term relationships (Hughes, Morrison, & Asada, 2005). In addition, problems in interpersonal relationships may also reveal signs of pathology such as chronic depression or problems with social cognition, difficultly reading the emotions and responses of others (Allen, Haslam, & Semedar, 2006). Individuals who have experienced traumatic events may maintain post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms that include negative cognitive beliefs about unfamiliar people, which could impact interpersonal relationships beliefs (Elmwood & Williams, 2007). In addition, cognition related to self-esteem may impact degree of relationship satisfaction (Cramer, 2003). Given the various life experiences that may impact the generation of individual love schemas, the sources of relationship dissatisfaction remain multiple and hard to generalize.

Individuals seek to reduce the cognitive discrepancies in their relationships in order to improve relationship satisfaction. Ways to reduce cognitive dissonance include mechanisms such as benevolent cognitions and other means of cognitive processing to account for relationship discrepancies. Benevolent cognitions refer to the ways individuals may view the negative events in their relationships as isolated incidents that fail to impact perceptions of partners and the relationship as a whole. Such cognitions represent effective ways of dealing with mirror problems in relationships to maintain harmony and hope for the future of the relationship (McNulty, O’Mara, & Karney, 2008). The cognitive ways in which we monitor our perceptions and responses in order to preserve our personal relationships illustrate the points at which individuals may change patterns of thinking in order to improve quality of life to smooth over discrepancies and keep the peace in our relationships. Discrepancies in relationship satisfaction may involve the Ideal Standards Model. This model refers to the ideal mate standards that individuals’ utilize to evaluate existing partners. Similar to love schemas, ideal standards arise from past experiences and self-perceptions of own good qualities (Overall, Fletcher, & Simpson, 2006). When current mates fail to meet the ideal, ways to dismiss these discrepancies are employed. Such ways include rationalization of partner’s negative behaviors, increased focus on positive attributes of partner, and attempts to regulate partner’s behaviors (Overall, Fletcher, & Simpson, 2006). These attempts to reduce cognitive dissonance involve reformulations of the expected behavioral patterns of others to account for the discrepancies. Efforts at seeking to regulate the behaviors of others are the most unsuccessful, as it remains hard to change the behaviors of others without their knowledge or willingness to change (Overall, Fletcher, & Simpson, 2006). As a result, it remains easier for individuals to monitor and change their own cognitions and emotional responses to circumstances within the relationships than to change those of their partners.

Processes to reduce cognitive dissonance within relationships by changing thinking patterns may or may not enable individuals to reduce the distress of their relationships. While these efforts are often successful in relationships with minor conflict and low incidents of negativity, efforts such as benevolent cognitions may also lead to relationship dissolution or chronic relationship dissatisfaction. Ignoring major relationship problems, unhealthy relationship patterns, or major negative partner traits, individuals create relationship conditions that demand no motivation to correct negative behaviors and eventually these relationships fail (McNulty, O’Mara, & Karney, 2008). This cognitive reasoning process may contribute to why individuals stay in abusive relationships. Abused partners may justify their abuse or rationalize the negative behaviors of their partners, failing to demand changed behavior from their partners or recognize their own harmful conditions. In this manner, the very mechanisms that individuals employ to preserve their interpersonal relationships may be harmful. Serious and chronic relationship problems may be unable to be solved by these cognitive reinterpretations of perceptual responses (McNulty, O’Mara, & Karney, 2008). Pretending that violence is okay or glossing over behaviors that generate personal harm fail to improve the relationships or stop the patterns of behavior.

In addition to improper or unhealthy dismissal of important relationships discrepancies, individuals’ cognitive scripts of close relationship also maintain a tendency to resist significant change. Individuals often experience or maintain the same types of romantic relationship patterns throughout their lives. As Wegner and Gold (1995) discover, the suppression of thoughts of loss loves often leads individuals to linger over their past relationships with obsessive thinking and constant remembrances. Such obsessive thought patterns may reveal why some individuals seek similar relationship patterns to those of past relationships or remain unable to move on from a previous relationship. As a result, these individuals may be unable to move into new relationships and seek to reunite with their lost love. In addition, individuals are readily able to issue judgments of their partners and relationships abilities to meet valued beliefs of what constitutes quality relationships such as honesty or intimacy (Fletcher, Rosanowski, & Fitness, 1994). The ease to which individuals are able to offer these judgments indicates the prevalence and depth of the individualized cognitive scripts for interpersonal relationships.
- from Love is Blind: Why We Love Who We Love & Repeat Our Relationship Patterns
When your own "love making" definition fits within social psychology's explanation of the blindness that's human romantic love drive, you might wanna take your own "ovulation goggle" into consideration, the next time you feel like making love.

"Previous research has shown in the week near ovulation women become attracted to sexy, rebellious and handsome men like George Clooney or James Bond," said lead researcher Kristina Durante. "But until now it was unclear why women would ever think it's wise to pursue long-term relationships with these kinds of men."

Shedding new light on this ovulation triggered delusion, Durante reports in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology that the hormones associated with ovulation influence women's perceptions of men as potential fathers.

In the first part of Durante's study, women viewed online dating profiles of either a sexy man or a reliable man during periods of both high and low fertility. Participants were asked to indicate the expected paternal contribution from the men if they had a child together based on how helpful the man would be caring for the infant, preparing food and contributing to household chores. Near ovulation women thought that the sexy man would contribute more to these domestic duties.

"Under the hormonal influence of ovulation, women delude themselves into thinking that the sexy bad boys will become devoted partners and better dads," explained Durante. "When looking at the sexy cad through ovulation goggles, Mr Wrong looked exactly like Mr Right."

In a second experiment, women interacted directly with male actors who played the roles of sexy cad and reliable dad once during ovulation and again at low fertility. Again, ovulating women thought that the sexy cad - but not the reliable dad - would contribute more to childcare, but only if she were his partner.

"When asked about what kind of father the sexy bad boy would make if he were to have children with another woman, women were quick to point out the bad boy's shortcomings," said Durante. "But when it came to their own child, ovulating women believed that the charismatic and adventurous cad would be a great father to their kids."

Durante thinks this psychological distortion could be setting some women up to choose partners who are better suited to be short-term mates. "Missing a mating opportunity with a sexy cad might be too costly for some women to pass up," said Durante. "After all, you never know if he could be the 'one.'"
- from Ovulation goggles make Mr Wrong look like Mr Right
After all, there's no such thing as "male" or "female" brain. When both sexes' brains are equally intersex, with masculine and feminine traits.

TEDxJaffa -- Daphna Joel -- Are brains male or female?
Professor Daphna Joel will explore the mistaken concept that brains can be either male or female, thus providing an explanation for why men and women are different. She disputes the theory, displays the neurological data and proves that our brains are really a unique mosaic of male and female characteristics, forming an 'intersex brain.'
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