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Are our actions determined, or are we free? (Free Will & Determism)
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Posted 1/23/07
^ ok, quick question for you. if there is no free will, then Hitler is innocent of everything he did, since he was programmed to do it, and could not chose otherwise.
And "we just have to learn" would not make sense if we were programmed.
How do you respond to that?
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Posted 1/23/07
Here this might make what I am saying a little easier to understand. We have already had every choice we will ever make. There for there is no free will.
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Posted 1/23/07
I think that fate and destiny sound great in a storybook, but there is such thing as free-will. You are allowed to make your own choices and choose to do things as you please.

There was a story on the news here recently about a 15 year old boy that stole a woman's car. The woman shot the kid in the head and killed him. The kid apparently had a bad background: dysfuntional family, drugs, violent tendencies etc. So this woman was arrested and put up on charges. The kid's psychiatrist said that she souldn't have killed him. That the child was expected to have problems from his upbringing.

I don't agree with this because this because it makes it sound like the kid didn't have a choice.He had free will and He stole the car! What was the woman supposed to do? Let him drive off with the car! I believe that no matter how you raised, that you will know right from wrong and you will make your own choices .
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Posted 1/23/07
All i am saying is that all your choices have been made already. It is up to you to understand why to do what you do. "Don't live in the future. Live life as it comes." Time runs in a straight line or you can say it is like a DVD. Even if you are able to skip to any part you want the same exact thing will happen as before.
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Posted 1/23/07
Well, like I said, it would requite some non-traditional idea of morality or just do away with it.

Really you offer no arguments, (or bad ones) so shrug. The only thing I agree with is the part at the end. Indeed, we cannot change the past from what it was, to what will be, but we could contribute to making the past the way it was. Similarly, talk about changing the future is senseless. Your going to change the future from what to what? You can talk about changing a possible future reasonably though.

Here is a rough breakdown of the positions:
I would consider myself a compatiblist, who is not quite sure about hard determinism.

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Posted 1/23/07
Here is a very simplified comment about determinism, which is what I think phyro is arguing very unsoundly about.
1. every event has a cause
2. human actions are events
3. therefore every human action is caused
4. determinism is true

A famous philosopher named Immanuel Kant suggested that causality (every event has a cause) is an assumption that we cannot prove by experience (a priori) but that we can't also conceive not to be the case. We cannot understand experience except by means of causal explanations. But he also saw that morality was a powerful notion to believe in free will. Problem is, we got a dilemma: free will seems necessary for morality and causality is necessary for science. how can we mix those two without them contradicting each other? I wish I could write a bit more....but I have things to do.
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Posted 1/23/07

phyro989 wrote:

Ok here is my say. I know this will cause a big riot but oh well.

There is no such thing as free will. There is no such thing as choice. We do what we do because it was what we were programmed to do. All of our actions have been per choosen for us to do. We just have to learn how to flow with them.

Take a look at it like this. Have any oh you seen the moive 12 Monkies? Well the point of this movie is ...............................I will let you go to an other page if you don't want to read it...............................................................................................................ok thats good enough, that even though you can go to the past you can't change anything. By going to the past it can even be to that makes the event that you are trying to stop happen.



yes that might be true in movies but you gotta remember you can't actually travel in time no matter how much fun it may seem to you if we could travel in time i might agree with you but since we can't and nobody can travel in time there is such a thing as free will and choice
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Posted 1/23/07
ok here is a good question if there is no such thing as choice i want you to choose which hand i have a coin in?? hey hey yeah thats what i thought you have to choose something now which means there is a choice if you think about which one to pick your are choosing if it was all down to fate you wouldn't have to think about which one you'd just know.

we all have choice just because some people don't use their ability to choose doesn't mean that there is such a thing as fate and that everything is predetermined if everything is predetermined and we have no choice then there is no point to living so if anyone really believes in fate hurry up and kill yourselves so you can stop annoying me
Posted 1/23/07
My beliefs are very childish on this issue. If fate was set, and free will was just a pre-fabricated cocktail of environmental determinism, existence would be one big puppet show. Wind-up toys on the floor of a den. My problem with this system is that it completely devalues the concept of "soul". Yes, Hitler would be innocent, because if Mother Theresa had been plugged in, the outcome would be the same. If fate is unchanging, what pleasure would the maker get from it?

The only reason I don't believe in hard determinism is because of my human tastes. Such a system would not have beauty or comedy or art or love; why would it matter how much detail was poured into existence if it wasn't alive? If it wasn't beautiful? Unless we are bugs in a jar, gathering dust on the shelf while our maker now plays with something of more interest, why are we here? And if we really are just puppets, why was existence given so much but left just short of freedom?

I like to believe in a dynamic environmental determinism, where your free will haggles with fate. You ever see a child play with a bug? As long as the bug navigates through presented challenges, it keeps the child's interest. The child doesn't really know for sure how the bug will be affected or what it'll do to move on, so every decision takes the results of the last experiment into consideration. Obviously the child has it's own interests in mind, but it wouldn't be playing if there was no variety in the child's actions that is relative to the bug.
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Posted 1/23/07
This is so similar to that topic of the novel Snow Falling on Cedars. Anyways, like my original answer I would go with chance or free will rather than fate. It would really suck if everything I'm doing are predetermined and fated. The search for self and true love would be rendered useless because the existence of fate would mean that either way, no matter what happens, things will end up the same way. Although, fate and destiny also has a nice ring to it as it secures everything for us. Either way, I'm going for the novel's answer on this question, that inside our hearts, free will and chance exists while destiny and fate revolves outside of it. Hmmm if I remember correctly, it means that every opportunity is laid out by fate and our decision to love and pursue things is our own choice, like a fork on a road.
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Posted 1/23/07
if we are just deemed to a fate then why do anything in life? If we are predestined to live the way we do then why do we do anything at all? Life is a choice, what we do impact our future.
1. If life is fated, then there is really nothing to live for, thus life is meaningless and there really is no reason to do anything.
2. who determins the fate? I believe in God. but I also know that God lets us make our own decisions.
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Posted 1/23/07
Freedom is slavery ~ 1984
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Posted 1/23/07
I like this quote better
“Man is condemned to be free.” ~Sartre
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Posted 1/23/07
I believe that there is no set time, it isn't real it is merely a human measurment. Our future has not happened, but will and will happen as it reflects to the present. Past is gone, it was and now isn't, the only proof we have of the past is memories, the other evidence exists now it doesn't exist in the past ^_^ So in turn, we are stationary, forever not moving and the choices we make will only effect the present. Free will happens to a point when a human decides to fallow then it is someone else's free will, no longer yours.

Still, "You are not born with culture, you are taught."

Lol, forgive my spelling and vagueness :/
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Posted 1/23/07
If fate was a proven fact, then the statement
"I can't get a job and not because i'm lazy, must be fate"
will be my favorite line
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