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Posted 2/27/12

papagolfwhiskey wrote:




I don't feel that you're reallly listening to me. instead you have a cause you wish to rant about. okay then. carry on.


Nah you say relgion is something that is not wrong,, but it is.. but if you mean Faith i can agree with you.. but faith and relgion is two diffrent things.

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Posted 2/27/12

Azubooh wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:




I don't feel that you're reallly listening to me. instead you have a cause you wish to rant about. okay then. carry on.


Nah you say relgion is something that is not wrong,, but it is.. but if you mean Faith i can agree with you.. but faith and relgion is two diffrent things.



I personally have no use for organised religion. since it's a human construct controlled by flawed and sometimes outright malicious human beings. but most religions include faithful people of good heart and earnest intent I'm not willing to condemn or their beliefs with such uncompromising contempt as you seem to. The history of Christiany, like that of Islam and Judeaism and I'm sure many other 'Isms' is indeed written in blood. Passages in their holy books ARE problematic at best. But I'm still unwilling to offer blanket condemnation of entire groups of people all the same. That way lies becoming what I hate.

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Posted 2/27/12

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Azubooh wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:




I don't feel that you're reallly listening to me. instead you have a cause you wish to rant about. okay then. carry on.


Nah you say relgion is something that is not wrong,, but it is.. but if you mean Faith i can agree with you.. but faith and relgion is two diffrent things.



I personally have no use for organised religion. since it's a human construct controlled by flawed and sometimes outright malicious human beings. but most religions include faithful people of good heart and earnest intent I'm not willing to condemn or their beliefs with such uncompromising contempt as you seem to. The history of Christiany, like that of Islam and Judeaism and I'm sure many other 'Isms' is indeed written in blood. Passages in their holy books ARE problematic at best. But I'm still unwilling to offer blanket condemnation of entire groups of people all the same. That way lies becoming what I hate.



Well i dont speak agenst the people.. just the tools that binds them into something that means control, "lift a rock and there i'm, cut wood and there i'm" People do not need to turn into books writen in blood and hatred.. They just need to belive in themself and others.. and when things stand infront of that becuse of control makes me sad.. Look at the news.. people dies becuse of religion.. poletics.. means that state people in groups then actual brake them free..
We are all one.. yet people act agenst each other.. that is something that is unatrual.. They state contries and contry boundries.. call themself diffrent names africans, americans ect ect.. Or Judism, islamic or christian... When they all shall be called and known as humanbeing.. we all one.. even if we look diffrent.. But goverment and relgion do gain power to bound them into a catagory.. And that causes unhappy people.. sadness... that is the thing i dislike.. and that is what i'm agenst.. Tho what you saying is understadble to.
I never ment to say something agenst the people that is under control.. just those that benefits from it.. Still i wont accept why people are so willing to fall into a system that cause so mutch bad things in the world..
But in away they want to have the same right as anyone else there for want it.. Tho it will never make one happy becuse it will always be others that will condem them... They would be alot happier and free without catagorise themself in something that is flawed..

And this is something we are taught during daycare and school to be in a catagory, be in groups becuse that is the only way to find happiness?! nah.. if people saw things as it was... none would be sad or left out... cast outs..
Todays relgions and society has become a sect... They use fear and control to raise people into stocks then to inspire inviduality.
If someone stands out they get harassed or bullied.. punished intil they fall back into their catagory..

Even the sexual desires has fallen into catagory, homo, bi, hetro, trans or asexual.. ect ect.. It should be about sensuality, the person and the freedom to be who you are.. to do what you wishes so long that dont hurt an other or cause pain.
So there for i can't realy understand why people want to fall back into a catagory to feel accepted.. They are beautiful as they are.. But then again many is afraid of that there for return to same pattern then look beyond it..



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Posted 2/27/12 , edited 2/27/12


I largely agree with your sentiment but I think now you're complaining about human nature. set a bunch of people down in a place with no nations or laws. take away their memories of ethnicity and gender and sexual orientation and they still would find new creeds and criteria over which to disagree and hate. People who should know better do it. Anime fans here love to hate fans of other media and even other anime fans who like shows that the first group doesn't. The LGBT community. Isn't without it's fractures. but speaking of them... This topic is about Gay Marriage and we are straying sorry.






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Posted 2/27/12

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Posted 2/29/12


Regarding giving people excuses, I'm not excusing them. Im saying they are hypocrites, and they are sinners.

Regarding christians being oppressed, yes they are, not just for the reason of simple vandalism, but for the murders of christians as well. I believe you completly left out the whole part where I talked about christians being killed. They are being oppressed.

As for all people claiming to be christians, there is a difference from christians who say they are, and born-again christians who pursue Christ. My mom is claims to be a christian, but does not pray, and basically lives as an athiest. I'm not whining either, generally, when people give me this kind of tone, they feel extreme hate, or displeasure in my words because they strongly disagree. I find that the percentage of christians in China are far more devout to Christ than the percentage of Christians in America.

Politics shouldnt influence religion. One other thing, does that mean christians in office must disobey God, and try to please the world's evil? Should I be nuetral when it comes to politics? Where in the bible is that tuaght? By nuetral do you mean I should support gay marriage? or not vote at all?
I understand that you are a supporter of homosexual rights, and I really dont care. The people running the government have the right to do what they want becuase it's thier govt. If they want to create "gay marriage" so be it. It's thier govt. However the USA doesnt work that way. We are privledged enough to live here...

regarding what you call rights:
“True” rights are inalienable. They exist whether or not they are recognized, and whether or not the ability or the will to defend them exists.
True rights do not impose an implicit obligation upon any other person to provide them to us. In fact, rights exist in greatest measure when we are each simply “left alone”.
If something must be provided to us at the expense of someone else in order for us to have it, then it may be an entitlement, a privilage, or an act of charity – but it is not a “right”.

The govt being influend by religion, I'd rather say the govt being influenced by Christians who believe in what they say, and implement them into the govt. Such as the ban of pornography. In a govt where gays cannot marry under govt terms, gay marriage within the establishment of government is not a right at all since it must be provided. It'd be a privilage rather than a right you are magically born with.

"Removing oppression", who's whining now... are white-male-christian americans really oppressing gays?
Oppression: unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power.
I'm sure gays believe it's unjust and cruel for a govt to not recognize gay marriage as a lawful/actual marriage.
Gays can marry right now if they want, no one is preventing them from being married to eachother. What do they need?
A church/chapel, a few tuxedos, or dresses, a preist? Honestly, gays are whining saying they're oppressed, not for the reason that they cant get married, but for the reason that the govt, an authority that has the right to deny rights and give privledges, will not recognize them.
The issue for gays is that they want to change the law, and that's fine, they can vote.
When marriage is defined, there must be an institution to recognize the marriage, does it have to be the US institution. What's wrong with two people just saying they're married?


Syndicaidramon wrote:

"And wheather you like it or not, you have NO right to force your beliefs or your morals on others.
And the government, like everyone as individuals, have no business with what people want to do in their own bedrooms. The government exists so that the country has someone to lead it. To prevent anarchy and to call the shots when war breaks out, etc.

The government is NOT the moral protector of society. And it shouldn't be."

You have some serious misconceptions about governments. Honestly, a lot of what you just said is floppy.
I have no right to force my beliefs or morals on others? Not unless it's my government.
'A' government is the authority of whatever it governs, it's 'the' power over you, a brutal master, and a nice servant. In a dictatorship, a govt, can and has it's own rights to oversee, and control whatever it governs. It is quite simple to understand. Does a dog have the right to bite it's master? No, not unless the master allows it. Does the master have the right to make rules and restrictions for the dog? Such as no peeing, or no barking, yes. It's extremely simple. What you want is happiness, and a utopia based on your own morals and beliefs, which is completely unrealistic.
The govt doesnt have to be the moral protector of society, but it can be. Just because it shouldn't, which is your belief, doesnt mean it cant.
We the people can be moral protectors of society, and so can the govt, especially if it's a govt for the people, and of the people.

Regarding Discrimination, the power of making fine distinctions, does not mean the same thing as restricting. Discrimination on it's own is simply identifying to a catagorey. Such as the viewing of porn being evil. I am making a discrimination there. Porn fits into the catagorey of evil. Discrimination doesnt mean the same thing as oppression. Please use a different word.


Syndicaidramon wrote:
Noooo, they say they hate God because they don't belive in the existence of God.

You know, that doesnt make much sense. What you're telling me is people hate what they dont believe in? Why do they bother saying they hate God in the first place when they dont even believe in him?

Regarding oppression once again:

Syndicaidramon wrote:
And yet, it is the exact same thing that you seek to do, only in a less extreme degree.
The muslims kill the christians for not sharing their beliefs. You want to restrict people's freedom or take it away from them because they doesn't share your beliefs.
It is the EXACT. SAME. THING!
How can you be so blind? You only see discrimination and hate when it's done to "your kind", yet when you do it to others, you're oblivious.
Your words are just one massive pile of hypocricy.

First of all, those two things are on completly different levels. I dont want to kill gays and lesbians. No, I'm not being a hypocrite here, muslims actually 'commit' the act of killing christians, while I simply 'desire' to have marriage's definition retained.

Please read these words here and take notice, because, apparently, you havent noticed much of what I said unless you're offended by it. I can tell you for certain, homosexual people do feel bad about being discriminated into the catagorey of sinner/fornicator/adulterer/perverted. I can tell you that PROUD homosexuals probably feel hurt when someone says a homosexual lifestlye is sinful. I can see that completely, and I am definitly not blind to that at all. I can see why you say homosexuals are 'discriminated' offended agianst....when the word discriminated means idenitfied into a catagorey... but anyways, yes, I know, there are people who are gay, that commit suicide because they feel offended. I'm sure there are bullies out there. I'm sure of it. The reason that I haven't mentioned that as strongly as a possibly should've is because I do not support gays, I want to be on God's side, not the opposite.

Also, nice wording there, the exact same thing I seek to do, only to a less extreme degree. You know, it's not the exact same thing, if it's to a less extreme degree."The muslims kill chrsitians for not sharing their beliefs."
I want to restict people's freedom or take it away from them because they dont share my beliefs? Hey, get this straight, I live in America, and I have the option to vote for what I want to happen, and so does the rest of America. Whatever happens is what happens, I wont go out killing gays in my city if gays get married around me. What I'm telling you is, the govt has the right to restrict and take away. Simple. Deal with it. Christians who have died for being Christians know what I'm talking about. You can follow the govt, and disobey the govt. If your govt tells you to stop being a practicing christian, you can chose whether or not you'll comply. If you refuse, the govt has the right to kill you. That a lesson from the bible. You can choose to adopt a pagan name, or be put to death. Christians know, that they will have to obey the govt, which means paying taxes, and other things, but when a govt tells you to go against your faith, you must be willing to die to defend your faith. I am willing to die for my faith.

I've taken the judgement from God, and I'm simply forwarding it. Who was I judging earlier? All homosexuals? Was I condemning them for being homosexuals, no, God does. I am not a homosexual, I have admitted earlier that I have commited sins of sexual immorality. The rock isnt in my eye at all, it's in thier eyes.

I urge you to seek the truth instead of picking words out that offend you and replying to them.
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Posted 2/29/12
@KoM, I think he means they hate the fictional character God, because of what [the belief in] God makes people do or say. People hate fictional characters all the time, such as book characters, anime characters, etc. To you God may be real, but to them (and me) he's just an imaginary character. I never say I hate God personally, I just dislike the harsh actions that come from people because of their belief and they use God to justify those actions. Also I find a lot of Christians think all atheists and non-believers hate God anyway, that's what they're accusing us of all the time.
Posted 3/1/12

JustineKo2 wrote:

@KoM, I think he means they hate the fictional character God, because of what [the belief in] God makes people do or say. People hate fictional characters all the time, such as book characters, anime characters, etc. To you God may be real, but to them (and me) he's just an imaginary character. I never say I hate God personally, I just dislike the harsh actions that come from people because of their belief and they use God to justify those actions. Also I find a lot of Christians think all atheists and non-believers hate God anyway, that's what they're accusing us of all the time.


Well, the real issue isnt whether or not they hate God/the character of God. I can see why people are led to hate christians and what issues they stand for; such as maintaining the definition of a real marriage. I understand that you think God doesnt exist, but that doesnt really do anything besides state the obvious. I know Gay people want to get married under the law. Marriage isnt such a bad thing. However the problem I see, and the problem God is aware of is homosexuality is sinful. Why should I support homosexuals when I know for a fact that God does exist?
That's what I'm asking.

People on here are accussing me, lol, of trying to restrict the right of marriage to gays. First of all, I dont recognize marriage of gays in the first place. If a govt does allow gay marriages, I wouldnt really care about them saying they're married. Marriage is when a man and a woman join together and become one flesh. That's a biblical marriage. Gay people cant do that, so if a govt recognizes a gay marriage, so be it, I believe the world is perverted. I know the world is sick. Lets say there were a proposition to ban pornography in the United States. I would vote to ban pornography; God hates pornography. People wouldnt want it banned, even the people who claim to be christians. You see what I mean. I believe the world is fallen, and that includes the majority, and people who claim there is nothing wrong with homosexuality and pornography.
Therefore, even if any majority such as the one here on CR says to me,

"@KoM You're wrong! gay marriage is a right, and you have no right to refuse the right of marriage to gays.... and I dont believe in God, and I dont believe gayness is wrong, and I dont believe in sin! So shut the F*** up and dont try to impose on me, or gays, and WE dont believe in God, he's your imagainery friend you Dum*a***. It doesnt matter if you tell us you're a believer, YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE BECUASE IT"S A RIGHT, IT DOESNT MATTER IF GOD EXIST OR NOT!!!!! }:{( YOU MUST SUPPORT A SIN"

The above is the general gist of what I get back in replies here on CR, some of them aren't as rude as the one above but, it's mainly the same message that comes into my mind.
The problem here is people assume that there is no God.
If people took into consideration that God may possibly exist, they could possibly understand how I see that some things are sinful, and how you could see that I want to be on God's side, and that means supporting God, as he is the Lord of my life, and the lord of my actions, my conduct, my thoughts. I'm not the best christian there is, since I've had some trouble with sexual immorality myself, I used to watch porn, and I know the truth about it, how it corrupts minds and creates a perverse generation. Getting back to the point, since I do believe in God, I MUST FOLLOW HIM. It doesnt matter if you say homosexuality isnt wrong, or if their gay marriage must be recognized by the law, that doesnt matter at all to me. Even If the whole wide world believed that homosexuality is not a sin, even if they dont believe in God, I would not follow them, I would choose God over the world. I am willing to face critisism, persecution, and death for God.

Regarding the harsh actions that come from people of faith, there are a few question we must ask. Are these people actually doing what God wants? If not, they're not doing what's right. Are these people sinners? Yes they are.
If people do not agree with people of faith and call them harsh, does that really matter to the people of faith who believe in God? Honestly, I've gotten bitter sometimes, I've been mad, pulling my hair out, because of my bitterness. People on CR, did not agree with me, they made fun of me, and tried to say I was a harsh bully. I got mad, I'm not perfect. However, if people do say that I am being harsh or injust because of what I believe in, and what I must do, then so be it. Call me harsh, call me stupid, but I know God. I dont think God calls me stupid for not voting for gay marriage. I only think people hate God because they have sins in thier life that they dont want to let go, and they love those sins, and also because of the harsh tone athiests give when they talk to me about God, and social issues.

If I've been rude or harsh, please point out a few things and I'll look them over, but dont forget to consider who I am and dont disregard God.
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KnightofMayhem

Regarding christians being oppressed, yes they are, not just for the reason of simple vandalism, but for the murders of christians as well. I believe you completly left out the whole part where I talked about christians being killed. They are being oppressed.


The reason why the killing of christians in muslim countries is allowed to happen is because the government doesn't really care, and because the countries have developed less than western countries. They are at a different stage in social evolution than western society. And that is the only reasons.
And really, it shouldn't surprise you that this happens. The muslims aren't exactly super happy about christianity, just like how christianity isn't exactly super happy about islam.
And in theory, I support it. I don't think a religion has the right to come in and try to take over. I wish we would do the same thing to islam here, only in less extreme ways.

The reason this doesn't happen in the west is because, like I said earlier, we have evolved further than this primal stage. We value human life and rights, and we have succumbed to political correctness.
There is no reason to belive that if we had been on the same point of social evolution as these islamic nations, we would've been any different.
In fact, I can GUARANTEE you that we wouldn't have been any different.

It has nothing to do with it being christianity. It has with a foreign religion trying to establish itself within a country ruled by a different religion.


KnightofMayhem
Politics shouldnt influence religion. One other thing, does that mean christians in office must disobey God, and try to please the world's evil?


No. It means christians shouldn't be in office at all. Religious people should not be in a position where they have the power to influence the laws being made in a society. Because their religious biases will affect the laws being made. And that is never a good thing.


KnightofMayhem
Should I be nuetral when it comes to politics? Where in the bible is that tuaght? By nuetral do you mean I should support gay marriage? or not vote at all?

You should not vote at all.
I don't remember exactly where it said it, but I remember the bible saying something to the effect of: "God is your only ruler".
And that you should not engage in politics beyond that. You are to follow the rules of society, but not to engage in any other politics.



KnightofMayhem
I understand that you are a supporter of homosexual rights, and I really dont care. The people running the government have the right to do what they want becuase it's thier govt. If they want to create "gay marriage" so be it. It's thier govt. However the USA doesnt work that way. We are privledged enough to live here...


So you actually belive that living in the US is better than living in any other place in the world?



KnightofMayhem
You have some serious misconceptions about governments. Honestly, a lot of what you just said is floppy.
I have no right to force my beliefs or morals on others? Not unless it's my government.
'A' government is the authority of whatever it governs, it's 'the' power over you, a brutal master, and a nice servant. In a dictatorship, a govt, can and has it's own rights to oversee, and control whatever it governs. It is quite simple to understand. Does a dog have the right to bite it's master? No, not unless the master allows it. Does the master have the right to make rules and restrictions for the dog? Such as no peeing, or no barking, yes. It's extremely simple. What you want is happiness, and a utopia based on your own morals and beliefs, which is completely unrealistic.
The govt doesnt have to be the moral protector of society, but it can be. Just because it shouldn't, which is your belief, doesnt mean it cant.
We the people can be moral protectors of society, and so can the govt, especially if it's a govt for the people, and of the people.


The reason we have a government is to protect ourselves. To protect the citizens of society.
Laws against murder are there so that no one should be able to end your life just because they don't like you. To protect the lives of the citizens.
Laws against theft are there to protect the property of the citizens. To protect what they have worked hard to gain.
Traffic laws are there to make sure everyone conforms to safety measures for travel to prevent accidents as much as possible. To protect the lives of the citizens.
And that is all it should do. Not force its citizens to commit to religious moral values. That is for each citizen to decide for their own.
Forcing people to conform to your own religious beliefs is immoral.

In short: a government is supposed to make laws based on the moral values that would be in a world without religion.
Laws made on the basis of human moral logic, and nothing else.
Anything beyond that is for everyone to decide on their own.

And that is how it should be. Because that is the only way it can be fair for everyone.



KnightofMayhem
You know, that doesnt make much sense. What you're telling me is people hate what they dont believe in? Why do they bother saying they hate God in the first place when they dont even believe in him?

Because they hate the character of God. It's kinda like how you can love or hate a character from a TV series or a movie.
The character doesn't exist, but you can still get emotionally invested in them because of their personality, words and actions.

And it's the same thing for atheists who say they hate God. They hate the God character.



KnightofMayhem
I can tell you for certain, homosexual people do feel bad about being discriminated into the catagorey of sinner/fornicator/adulterer/perverted. I can tell you that PROUD homosexuals probably feel hurt when someone says a homosexual lifestlye is sinful. I can see that completely, and I am definitly not blind to that at all. I can see why you say homosexuals are 'discriminated' offended agianst....when the word discriminated means idenitfied into a catagorey... but anyways, yes, I know, there are people who are gay, that commit suicide because they feel offended. I'm sure there are bullies out there. I'm sure of it. The reason that I haven't mentioned that as strongly as a possibly should've is because I do not support gays, I want to be on God's side, not the opposite.


Then stay on God's side. No one's forcing you to do anything else.
But that does not mean you should keep other people away from doing what they want to do.
And it is because of people like you, going around preaching that homosexuality is evil, that gay people feel discriminated against. That they get depressions, they they become outcasts, that they commit suicide, etc.

That is all YOUR. Yours, and of all of you who fight against equality and against the collective well being of everyone, simply because you don't agree with what they do.
If you just let them do what they do and minded your own business, like you SHOULD, then those things will fade away eventually.

Besides, according to the bible, Satan is the ruler of this world, not God.
So by engaging in the politics of this world, you are engaging in the politics of Satan's world.



KnightofMayhem
Also, nice wording there, the exact same thing I seek to do, only to a less extreme degree. You know, it's not the exact same thing, if it's to a less extreme degree."The muslims kill chrsitians for not sharing their beliefs."

I want to restict people's freedom or take it away from them because they dont share my beliefs? Hey, get this straight, I live in America, and I have the option to vote for what I want to happen, and so does the rest of America.


Yes. And? Is there an argument that's supposed to be lying around in here somewhere that supposedly excuses you from the responsibility of your own actions?
Just because there are more ignorant people in your country than not, doesn't mean you're not ignorant.



KnightofMayhem
Christians know, that they will have to obey the govt, which means paying taxes, and other things.

EXACTLY! So what is the problem, then? As long as the government doesn't force YOU to go against God, you should be totally indifferent.

Posted 3/1/12 , edited 3/1/12

papagolfwhiskey wrote:
I had quite a long post composed in my head but it started to become more effort than this was worth let's see If I can make it quick and simple.
The vast majority of your post is a long rant of convoluted logic based on irrelevant premises that I parse out as saying
“Please refer all complaints about Christians to our god.”
This is about as helpful and conciliatory as if I called your God “your imaginary friend”
Telling me to direct my complaints to a supervisor with no address or postal code is the height of rudeness.
You and I live in different countries. But in both of them about 80% of state regulated holidays are christian celebrations. In both of them our calendar is derived from one established by a christian prelate. (Pope Gregory=Gregorian Calendar).In your country; Coaches, Ballplayers and other public figures routinely invoke God in public. Public office, especially high public office, is impossible to achieve without declaring your religious affiliation. And not only must said affiliation be Christian but if it isn't the 'right' flavour of Christianity it becomes a liability (or for the successful candidate; a legitimization of that branch of the faith). (examples: JFK- Roman Catholicism, Romney- LDS). In many of your jurisdictions Christian backed drives to have fairy tails taught instead of science, or children indoctrinated with the Lord's Prayer every morning at school or to ban Sunday shopping continue take up a great deal of public discourse. You are NOT oppressed. You may feel your power contracting, but an erosion of a position of supremacy is NOT oppression. Grow up.
You're right. We do make discriminations all the time. Coke and Pepsi want us to discriminate between them. I discriminate between white cotton, or paisley synthetics every morning when I stare at my sock drawer. But most human rights codes say we are violating people's rights when we discriminate on a basis of sex. (only woman can be a nurse), Race (White men can't jump), Creed (Muslims shouldn't be president) or Sexual Orientation. (Gay people cannot enjoy being married under the law)
No one is trying to force your congregations and ministers to marry someone against their concience. But YOU are trying to keep people who CAN go to a Justice of the peace or who DO have a more open minded minister, priest, druid to bless them from getting married. That IS a discriminatory violation of a gay person's human rights.

You can even say to God that you dont believe he's right about marriage, or what's right and wrong.

That assumes that (a) I believe in God … and (B) that I agree with YOU on what YOU think the inner mind of god is. Not all Christians seem to believe as you do. The largest non-catholic denomination in Canada doesn't...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_the_United_Church_of_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Canada

Sure, homosexuals wont support christians or God, they say, discrimination. Conservatives know, God exist, so they made laws to protect the defintion of marriage.

The above is just misguided and ignorant. It assumes all Gays are anti-church and all conservatives are pro. It also again asssumes that 'conservatives' know the mind of god so well and that the sacrement of marriage actually needs defending from the expansion of liberalization of the social and legal artifact of the same name. Here's an idea. Why don't we just follow on separation of Church and State and abolish Marriage as a legal entity all together. Everyone can have 'Civil Unions' since that's all they are in the eyes of the law anyway.
Finally, your attempt to throw Angrier Chick's words back in her face was clumsy, contrived and transparent. It proved nothing other than you are nowhere near as respectful as she gave you credit for.

I was telling Angrier Chick, Christians are not God, and thier sins do not represent God. If you call keeping marriage straight, harsh, so be it; homosexuality in the first place is a sin, and God know it's a sin. I'm not telling you to complain about about christians to God. I was telling AngrierChick, who claims to have once been a 'christian' that the reason she gave up on 'religion' was because of the people in that organized group of people. She didnt leave God because of Christ, or salvation, or the idea of everlasting life. She said, she left God because of God's followers. Is that a good reason to leave God?

Regarding opression. I myself am not oprressed. I may have people that go against me, but I am not oppressed. You failed to read past the part where I talked about vandalism. Do you know what the holocust was? Jews were oppressed, as well as messianic jews. Christians are oppressed today. CNN, isnt showing this stuff as much as it should.http://frontpagemag.com/2012/02/10/muslim-persecution-of-christians-january-2012


Another thing, you're right, I am trying to keep gays from getting married, and I want to take away that priveledge from them. I also dont want them to display public affection to eachother, such as holding hands. My vote, my piece of power, mine. Your vote, your piece of power, your's. What I want is control, What you want is freedom to sin. If a human right were to commit adultery, I would want a law to prevent it. If there were a law to restrict teaching homosexual people's contributions to society, embracing the fact of their sexuality, I would want to restrict it. Infact, that's happening in schools. Homosexual rights is a school topic, and is promoted in classes. Wouldn't you say that's indoctrination?
You say, a discriminatory violation of a gay person's human rights?
I say yes, you could view it that way. A person might say, there are no gay rights, there are no women's rights, or children's rights, or men's rights. There are human rights. An adult has the right to marry an adult of the opposite sex. That is a right, and that right belongs to homosexuals, but they do not want to marry a person of the opposite sex. Futhermore the right to marriage is not a inalienable right at all. It's not an inherent right. In a dictatorship, in which I banned gay marriage under the law, recognized by the govt, gays would need me to give them marriage. http://breckshire.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/rights-vs-entitlement-and-privilege/


“True” rights are inalienable. They exist whether or not they are recognized, and whether or not the ability or the will to defend them exists.

True rights do not impose an implicit obligation upon any other person to provide them to us. In fact, rights exist in greatest measure when we are each simply “left alone”.

If something must be provided to us at the expense of someone else in order for us to have it, then it may be an entitlement, a privilage, or an act of charity – but it is not a “right”
.
This applies to government recognized homosexual marriages. What homosexuals want, is called a privledge. To many people today think they are entitled to everthing.
Regarding churches, and people who claim to know what God wants, there are people who make stuff up in order to fit the new culture. I understand that not all people who claim to be christians actually believe what I believe. My own mother claims to be a christian and does not care at all, she steals from stores, and my dad says it's a sin to be rich while I tell him, it's the love of money that is a sin.

papagolfwhiskey wrote:
Here's an idea. Why don't we just follow on separation of Church and State and abolish Marriage as a legal entity all together. Everyone can have 'Civil Unions' since that's all they are in the eyes of the law anyway.

Exactly. I've said the same thing before. Marriage under law belongs to theocracies.
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KnightofMayhem wrote:
Why should I support homosexuals when I know for a fact that God does exist?
That's what I'm asking.
Well, might I simply press upon you the possibility of separating God's hate of homosexuality from God's hate of pornography? Perhaps banning pornography might have a benefit because addiction to it leads some people down a harmful path. Pornography itself isn't a living human being, but gays are so if the direct affect of subjugating something or someone to God's laws are entirely different from one another (pornography vs homosexuality), then it's false that a sin is a sin, in terms of secular law and government regulation.

KnightofMayhem wrote:

papagolfwhiskey wrote:
Here's an idea. Why don't we just follow on separation of Church and State and abolish Marriage as a legal entity all together. Everyone can have 'Civil Unions' since that's all they are in the eyes of the law anyway.

Exactly. I've said the same thing before. Marriage under law belongs to theocracies.
There are no theocracies in existence, and even though the U.S. was established as a form of escape from theocratic rule, the U.S. is the closest thing to a theocracy in the entire world right now. Christians may not agree but you all take for granted really how much of a link between religion and government actually exists in the U.S. You'll never be satisfied no matter how close to a theocracy the U.S. gets, when in reality moving further away from it is a more correct path for both Christians and non-Christians alike.

Also abolishing marriage will never happen. I think it would be even worse if only civil unions existed. Would fundamentalists and evangelicals really be satisfied? No it doesn't matter what marriage is or isn't or what it's called, those who don't approve of homosexuality or think it's a sin only want control over the private lives of gays and want them to be officially classed as 2nd rate citizens. If they couldn't justify it by claiming marriage is a "holy institution" they'd still hate gays anyway, it makes no difference.
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KnightofMayhem wrote:



You blaspheme against the inalienable rights you talk about when you use sophistry to say that it's not a real right if someone can attempt to take it away. But in that quote it says all a right need to exist is for others to 'leave them alone' Which you will not do and do not believe.

THIS is what you believe.


Another thing, you're right, I am trying to keep gays from getting married, and I want to take away that priveledge from them. I also dont want them to display public affection to eachother, such as holding hands.

...

What I want is control, What you want is freedom to sin. If a human right were to commit adultery, I would want a law to prevent it. If there were a law to restrict teaching homosexual people's contributions to society, embracing the fact of their sexuality, I would want to restrict it.


What you want is a Christian version of Iran. We could talk more about your condescending voice (Yes I know what the holocaust was, evidently you don't or you wouldn't try to compare some petty vandalism to Kristallnacht), We could argue about the blinders you have on where you can concede that not every christian has the same ideas as you do but never budge YOUR understanding of god's will should rule us all Christian, non-christian, and Christians who believe differently from you alike.

I don't think there's a point. Have nice life FAR from mine.

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papagolfwhiskey wrote:


KnightofMayhem wrote:



You blaspheme against the inalienable rights you talk about when you use sophistry to say that it's not a real right if someone can attempt to take it away. But in that quote it says all a right need to exist is for others to 'leave them alone' Which you will not do and do not believe.

THIS is what you believe.


Another thing, you're right, I am trying to keep gays from getting married, and I want to take away that priveledge from them. I also dont want them to display public affection to eachother, such as holding hands.

...

What I want is control, What you want is freedom to sin. If a human right were to commit adultery, I would want a law to prevent it. If there were a law to restrict teaching homosexual people's contributions to society, embracing the fact of their sexuality, I would want to restrict it.


What you want is a Christian version of Iran. We could talk more about your condescending voice (Yes I know what the holocaust was, evidently you don't or you wouldn't try to compare some petty vandalism to Kristallnacht), We could argue about the blinders you have on where you can concede that not every christian has the same ideas as you do but never budge YOUR understanding of god's will should rule us all Christian, non-christian, and Christians who believe differently from you alike.

I don't think there's a point. Have nice life FAR from mine.




Marry me.
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amersfoort wrote:


Marry me.


I'm too old for you. Besides I'd probably not be ready to join the lists of love until several years from now... after the surgery.

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Posted 3/13/12

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


amersfoort wrote:


Marry me.


I'm too old for you. Besides I'd probably not be ready to join the lists of love until several years from now... after the surgery.



That makes me wonder, if a person goes from male to female thanks to surgery, and then goes out with males, is it homosexual?

And would christians not complain about a transgender marrying a non transgender?

Ohh technology, you so confusing ^^
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