First  Prev  1  2  3  4  Next  Last
Spreading The Gospel
1283 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Everywhere you wa...
Offline
Posted 6/15/08

digs wrote:

Honestly, you can't judge the mind of God. God preforms miracles. When Philip was with the Ethiopian servant, he shared the scriptures with him and helped him understand it. He later baptized him. The moment after that, the Holy Spirit took him to another town where he preached the Gospel. God can send anyone by any means. You are forgetting though, according to the Bible. Adam and Eve were the first humans, they knew the truth and they educated their children about God. All humanity stemmed from them, and those humans decided to reject God and worship demons and idols. It is always a choice.
One born in a culture had forgotten such teaching would never know about it, so that is not choice. NOr, did Adam and Eve know of Jesus, so this point is moot.




You are forgetting that the fetus has never sinned. The reason we go to hell is because we have sins, if something lived perfect and never sinned, then it can go to heaven.
You do not know what original sin entails do you Digs? They are born with it as are all men.



And God is merciful. True, no one can go to heaven unless they accept Jesus, but we need to accept Jesus because we have sin. Without accepting Jesus, we are all doomed to hell, no matter how "good" we are.


You have not even read the source material on this subject have you? You know I love your posts Digs. No one us so blatantly ignorant their own religion but you-it is like shooting fish in a barrel refuting you. Always good for a laugh.
4095 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27 / M / Los Angeles, Cali...
Offline
Posted 6/15/08

makimaki_sataandagi wrote:

Yes this is another religion thread.
Before you post comments, please kindly hear what I have to say.

As we know that Christians, are supposed to spread the gospel, to reach out to the non-Christians and so on.
So here's my question, according to the bible, people who do not accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour goes to hell. That is why Christians share the gospel to non-believers.

But what about people living in non- reachable places, like rural areas. I'm sure that they have not heard of the gospel. Does that mean that when they die, they go to hell for not accepting Christ? But they hadn't a chance to hear about it.

Some people might say that God is a merciful God. But if it is so, then Christians would become lazy to share the gospel so that nobody would have heard of it and the chances of people being saved might be higher.

Here's my second question. What about children? Or the mentally disabled? They for once have no opinion on what is right and wrong. Will they go to hell too if the parents of a child are non-Christians? Or is God a merciful God?

Please state your opinions on this and try not to put down other people or insult any other religions.

If this thread is a duplicate, worthless, or going off topic, kindly remove it.


originally, virtuous non-believers or those who have not heard the gospels went to purgatory for eternity. but some pope a few years back abolished purgatory, which means they all go to heaven now.

Scientist Moderator
digs 
48142 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / M
Offline
Posted 6/15/08 , edited 6/15/08
Purgatory isn't in the Bible, it's either heaven or hell. And only Christians who accept Jesus as their savior can go to heaven.
46535 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 6/15/08

digs wrote:

Honestly, you can't judge the mind of God. God preforms miracles. When Philip was with the Ethiopian servant, he shared the scriptures with him and helped him understand it. He later baptized him. The moment after that, the Holy Spirit took him to another town where he preached the Gospel. God can send anyone by any means. You are forgetting though, according to the Bible. Adam and Eve were the first humans, they knew the truth and they educated their children about God. All humanity stemmed from them, and those humans decided to reject God and worship demons and idols. It is always a choice.

You are forgetting that the fetus has never sinned. The reason we go to hell is because we have sins, if something lived perfect and never sinned, then it can go to heaven. And God is merciful. True, no one can go to heaven unless they accept Jesus, but we need to accept Jesus because we have sin. Without accepting Jesus, we are all doomed to hell, no matter how "good" we are.


So it's 'Accept me or face eternal punishment?'

How mature that sounds. I doubt a perfect being lays out such illogical system. I say illogical because there are plenty of moral and virtuous people who choose not to accept Jesus.

I admire Jesus and respect many of his words but if the consensus is that a person must 'accept him' (whatever that means, I'll appreciate if you use less vague language next time) or burn in a lake of fire for eternity then no thank you Jesus, I'll pass and live a virtious life for the sake of it, doing good things because they are good in themselves.

Any other perspectives rather than a mere interpretation of the bible than you know of? like I don't know, an actual scholar that can explain the concept of sin better? because I have to tell you in all honesty, your statements don't hold together.
Posted 6/15/08

digs wrote:

The Bible says that God is merciful. For people who never knew about Salvaiton, the Bible says that God presents Himself in His amazing creation. If people are curious about God and want to know more, God will send someone or some way for people to learn about Him. The Holy Spirit convicts people.

I believe that children and aborted babies go to heaven. God is merciful. The Bible is somewhat vague about what happens if a young child dies, but it never states that they go to hell. Jesus even said "Let the little children come."


I'm interested, the bible says were born into sin, if the child dies right there, why does it go to heaven, he with sin isn't allowed in heaven right?

And your first statement makes no sense, it says he will let curious people know, but its impossible to be curious about something you have no clue exist. What it says in the OP is what happens to people who never have a chance to accept God, all you said is if people are curious he will let them know, so that just means they are ultimately doomed.
Posted 6/15/08

digs wrote:

Honestly, you can't judge the mind of God. God preforms miracles. When Philip was with the Ethiopian servant, he shared the scriptures with him and helped him understand it. He later baptized him. The moment after that, the Holy Spirit took him to another town where he preached the Gospel. God can send anyone by any means. You are forgetting though, according to the Bible. Adam and Eve were the first humans, they knew the truth and they educated their children about God. All humanity stemmed from them, and those humans decided to reject God and worship demons and idols. It is always a choice.

You are forgetting that the fetus has never sinned. The reason we go to hell is because we have sins, if something lived perfect and never sinned, then it can go to heaven. And God is merciful. True, no one can go to heaven unless they accept Jesus, but we need to accept Jesus because we have sin. Without accepting Jesus, we are all doomed to hell, no matter how "good" we are.


Um we are born into sin, if not, then we could all be sinless as long as we never do anything bad, but we can't which is why we must accept Jesus.
Scientist Moderator
digs 
48142 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / M
Offline
Posted 6/15/08 , edited 6/15/08

mauz15 wrote:


digs wrote:

Honestly, you can't judge the mind of God. God preforms miracles. When Philip was with the Ethiopian servant, he shared the scriptures with him and helped him understand it. He later baptized him. The moment after that, the Holy Spirit took him to another town where he preached the Gospel. God can send anyone by any means. You are forgetting though, according to the Bible. Adam and Eve were the first humans, they knew the truth and they educated their children about God. All humanity stemmed from them, and those humans decided to reject God and worship demons and idols. It is always a choice.

You are forgetting that the fetus has never sinned. The reason we go to hell is because we have sins, if something lived perfect and never sinned, then it can go to heaven. And God is merciful. True, no one can go to heaven unless they accept Jesus, but we need to accept Jesus because we have sin. Without accepting Jesus, we are all doomed to hell, no matter how "good" we are.


So it's 'Accept me or face eternal punishment?'

How mature that sounds. I doubt a perfect being lays out such illogical system. I say illogical because there are plenty of moral and virtuous people who choose not to accept Jesus.

I admire Jesus and respect many of his words but if the consensus is that a person must 'accept him' (whatever that means, I'll appreciate if you use less vague language next time) or burn in a lake of fire for eternity then no thank you Jesus, I'll pass and live a virtious life for the sake of it, doing good things because they are good in themselves.

Any other perspectives rather than a mere interpretation of the bible than you know of? like I don't know, an actual scholar that can explain the concept of sin better? because I have to tell you in all honesty, your statements don't hold together.


Let me better explain, and it isn't illogical. God is a perfect and Holy being. Because God is perfect and holy, He cannot have sin in our presence. When Jesus says to accept Him. He means accept that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Accept that Jesus was God's son and the Messiah, and that He has paid the price for our sins. Jesus has the authority to forgive our sins. And He gives it away for free. We don't have to work for it, our faith in Jesus and His words with repentance is all it takes. You seem to think that God has a scale that weighs our sins and our good deeds, and as long as our good deeds outweigh sin, we should be allowed in heaven. That isn't the case and it is illogical to think that. First of all, thinking that puts us as the judge, not God. If we are trying to "appease" God, we can't do that y our standards, we would have to do it by His (and His are perfect and complete sinless perfection) You wouldn't do that for another human, if you wanted to appease them, you don't do things and assume that you are the best of friends because in your mind, you did more nice things than mean things for them. We can't be the judge for our deeds (good and evil) when we aren't the ones who have to examen them. Second, we do not have the authority to forgive ourselves. No sin can be in heaven, the only way to remove it is by being forgiven by God (Jesus Christ) If our objective is to do good things and use them to atone for our sins, then we are illogical. First of all, relate this to how you would another person. If you did something wrong to someone else, and you do "good things" to make it right, you can't judge that. It is up to the other person to judge. Thinking that it is all ok because you helped an old lady cross the street doesn't automatically make that person forgive you. You have to ask, you can't forgive yourself for an offense you did to someone else. The thing though is, God wants our repentance and faith, and His free gift is forgiveness and eternal life. When we are forgiven, God no longer holds our sins against us, and He views us as sinless and His children. Our sins are no more when we repent in Jesus' Name. Blatantly, is it "accept Me or face eternal punishment." But the truth is it is more "I love you and here is forgiveness, all you have to do to save yourself from being judged for your sins is take it." People don't understand the severity of sin, they also don't understand the blessings of faith. God doesn't want to send us to hell, and He doesn't. We send ourselves. Our sins separate us from God. And God loves us so much that He offered a way to remove them. Our sins send us to judgment and hell.
46535 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 6/15/08 , edited 6/15/08

digs wrote:

Let me better explain, and it isn't illogical.

God is a perfect and Holy being.
Because God is perfect and holy, (conclusion=He cannot have sin in our presence.


The conclusion does not follow your premise of God being perfect.


When Jesus says to accept Him. He means accept that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Accept that Jesus was God's son and the Messiah, and that He has paid the price for our sins.


I don't think he was the messiah, nor I find his words that great. Plenty of people before him said the same things.


You seem to think that God has a scale that weighs our sins and our good deeds, and as long as our good deeds outweigh sin, we should be allowed in heaven.


Nowhere I mentioned my view on sin so that conclusion is based on nothing. Show me where 'I seem to think that and I'll consider the rest of your post.


Second, we do not have the authority to forgive ourselves.


False. Sadly, the Bible has little to say on self forgiveness but there are plenty of cases where self forgiveness is necessary to move forward in a morally driven life.
1433 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
29 / M / New York
Offline
Posted 6/15/08 , edited 6/15/08
I just wanted to add a few ideas here...

1.) If only those who accept Jesus while on Earth are saved, then those who are never exposed to his existence and teachings would not be saved. This is clearly not in line with "mercy."
2.) If those who are not exposed to his existence and teachings are still saved, then it is actually better to not spread Christianity, apart from the commandment to do so, which really makes little sense in that light. In other words: if someone who is ignorant of the teachings is automatically saved, keep everyone ignorant.
3.) If people are individually judged based on their actions, then Jesus is irrelevant.

The only escape route I see is: everyone, upon death, is exposed to God and its standards, and must then decide whether he will change or not at that time. Then there are a few problems:

1.) This doesn't seem to correspond to the Bible
2.) All actions on Earth are irrelevant (not strictly a problem, but definitely a savage blow to Christianity as we know it)
3.) A human being who is actually exposed to God's presence, if it is truly as magnificent as it is said to be, would likely not choose to disobey, especially if he were aware of the consequences. If you accept the whole fall of Satan story (I don't recall if any of it is even in the Bible, but it's certainly in Milton's Paradise Lost), then you accept that beings can turn from God; however, those beings were "divine" and had powers that humans clearly do not.

And that last one raises another question for me: how could any rational being think it had the power to overcome something that is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc. (again, I'm not sure if the Bible actually states these things so explicitly; it's difficult to disconnect what we're taught from what is actually written)?

I'd like to hear some logical and consistent answers to these issues. If it is necessary to dismiss institutional (religious, as opposed to textual) concepts to do so, be my guest. Just be aware that any answers not in the text at all clearly lack any basis, and any answers rooted in the text in some way are necessarily subjective if you hold any part of the Bible to be a matter of "interpretation," such as Genesis.
Scientist Moderator
digs 
48142 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / M
Offline
Posted 6/15/08

mauz15 wrote:


digs wrote:

Let me better explain, and it isn't illogical.

God is a perfect and Holy being.
Because God is perfect and holy, (conclusion=He cannot have sin in our presence.


The conclusion does not follow your premise of God being perfect.


When Jesus says to accept Him. He means accept that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Accept that Jesus was God's son and the Messiah, and that He has paid the price for our sins.


I don't think he was the messiah, nor I find his words that great. Plenty of people before him said the same things.


You seem to think that God has a scale that weighs our sins and our good deeds, and as long as our good deeds outweigh sin, we should be allowed in heaven.


Nowhere I mentioned my view on sin so that conclusion is based on nothing. Show me where 'I seem to think that and I'll consider the rest of your post.


Second, we do not have the authority to forgive ourselves.


False. Sadly, the Bible has little to say on self forgiveness but there are plenty of cases where self forgiveness is necessary to move forward in a morally driven life.


You only say my conclusion does not follow my premise of God being perfect. But you can't support that. God is perfect, therefore sin (which is imperfect) cannot be in the presence of God.

And Plenty of people before Him prophesied His miracles and life. Hundreds of years before Jesus was born. Others may have maid claims, but they were false. Jesus is the real deal.

I said that because you stated how God sends "good" people to hell. Believing that goodness gets us into heaven has no base.

Self forgiveness and forgiveness from God are different. God forgives our sins and does not judge or hold them against us. Forgiving ourselves is coming to accept that we sinned within our heart, and moving on beyond it and no longer focusing on the sin.

46535 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 6/15/08
ugh read my post again and stop being so defensive. You did not even get my first statement right.
1283 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Everywhere you wa...
Offline
Posted 6/15/08 , edited 6/16/08

Regulus133 wrote:

I just wanted to add a few ideas here...

1.) If only those who accept Jesus while on Earth are saved, then those who are never exposed to his existence and teachings would not be saved. This is clearly not in line with "mercy."
2.) If those who are not exposed to his existence and teachings are still saved, then it is actually better to not spread Christianity, apart from the commandment to do so, which really makes little sense in that light. In other words: if someone who is ignorant of the teachings is automatically saved, keep everyone ignorant.
3.) If people are individually judged based on their actions, then Jesus is irrelevant.
1 is biblical. Jesus clearly said the only way to the father is through him.





The only escape route I see is: everyone, upon death, is exposed to God and its standards, and must then decide whether he will change or not at that time. Then there are a few problems:

1.) This doesn't seem to correspond to the Bible
2.) All actions on Earth are irrelevant (not strictly a problem, but definitely a savage blow to Christianity as we know it)
3.) A human being who is actually exposed to God's presence, if it is truly as magnificent as it is said to be, would likely not choose to disobey, especially if he were aware of the consequences. If you accept the whole fall of Satan story (I don't recall if any of it is even in the Bible, but it's certainly in Milton's Paradise Lost), then you accept that beings can turn from God; however, those beings were "divine" and had powers that humans clearly do not.



And that last one raises another question for me: how could any rational being think it had the power to overcome something that is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc. (again, I'm not sure if the Bible actually states these things so explicitly; it's difficult to disconnect what we're taught from what is actually written)?

I'd like to hear some logical and consistent answers to these issues. If it is necessary to dismiss institutional (religious, as opposed to textual) concepts to do so, be my guest. Just be aware that any answers not in the text at all clearly lack any basis, and any answers rooted in the text in some way are necessarily subjective if you hold any part of the Bible to be a matter of "interpretation," such as Genesis.


There is a problem with just using the bible though. The bible itself is made up of works chosen from a larger pool. The old testament also has the Talmud as a guide to it, which the Jews used long before the supposed coming of Christ. In fact the Talmud clearly says that Genesis is not literal, which is something Young Earth Creationist are unaware off apparently. Then you toss in the oral traditions. You end up with a hodge podge of things which can support a great many conflicting ideas. Out of this mess the basic idea that is most in line with the texts in Calvinism (in my opinion). Basically, all humans are so corrupt they are worthless. This is because of the Fall, which is indeed biblical.

There are 5 central points.
1. Total depravity (Original Sin)

The fall has made mankind worthless.

2. Unconditional election (God's Election)
Before the start of time God choose people he would save not for merit but because of his mercy.

* John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."
* Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
* Romans 9:15-16: "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
* Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessles of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make the riches of his glory for vessles of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"
* Ephesians 1:4-5: "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"
* Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"
* Philippians 1:29: "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake"
* 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake."
* 2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."
* 2 Timothy 1:9: "who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,"


3. Limited atonement (Particular Redemption)
Basically, we know that some people are chosen from the verses listed above. This means that the death of Jesus only atones for the sins of those people know as the elect.

4. Irresistible grace (Effectual Calling)
One cannot become unelect or resist the call of god. They are chosen by him and can do nothing about it.


5. Perseverance of the Saints
When one is elect they are elect forever.

This is a very basic way to answer questions about hell. In regards to your critique of god mercy I would say that since the Christian view is humans are worthless, that gods mercy is undeserved and it is only through it some people are elect.

I don't actually believe in this of course.
1433 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
29 / M / New York
Offline
Posted 6/15/08 , edited 6/15/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


Regulus133 wrote:

I just wanted to add a few ideas here...

1.) If only those who accept Jesus while on Earth are saved, then those who are never exposed to his existence and teachings would not be saved. This is clearly not in line with "mercy."
2.) If those who are not exposed to his existence and teachings are still saved, then it is actually better to not spread Christianity, apart from the commandment to do so, which really makes little sense in that light. In other words: if someone who is ignorant of the teachings is automatically saved, keep everyone ignorant.
3.) If people are individually judged based on their actions, then Jesus is irrelevant.


1 is biblical. Jesus clearly said the only way to the father is through him.


This statement alone is not sufficient to establish #1. It really depends on who gets to go "through him," which could include those who aren't aware or even everyone. Fortunately, the verses you cite seem to cover it pretty well unless they're in a context not included, are poorly translated, or are simply conveying a different meaning than we are getting.


There is a problem with just using the bible though. The bible itself is made up of works chosen from a larger pool. The old testament also has the Talmud as a guide to it, which the Jews used long before the supposed coming of Christ. In fact the Talmud clearly says that Genesis is not literal, which is something Young Earth Creationist are unaware off apparently. Then you toss in the oral traditions. You end up with a hodge podge of things which can support a great many conflicting ideas. Out of this mess the basic idea that is most in line with the texts in Calvinism (in my opinion). Basically, all humans are so corrupt they are worthless. This is because of the Fall, which is indeed biblical.


Heh--I must admit my part about the Bible was directed towards those who would consider it in and of itself rather than in a historical context or larger pool. Obviously you're right. But the "Fall" I mentioned referred to the story of the fall of Lucifer after he challenged God, a story certainly found in Paradise Lost but not, at least to my recollection, in the Bible, despite widespread belief in it. If you have anything on this, enlighten me.


2. Unconditional election (God's Election)
Before the start of time God choose people he would save not for merit but because of his mercy.


Regarding the verses you list in this section: although I already stated that they do a pretty good job of establishing what you said, I see room for interpretation and reconsideration in terms of context in all or at least most of them. Such tactics would obviously constitute a suspicious argument, but an argument could nevertheless be made for another side. Unfortunately, being biased because of my own upbringing, I don't think I could be completely objective in a real analysis of such a case.



4. Irresistible grace (Effectual Calling)
One can become unelect or resist the call of god. They are chosen by him and can do nothing about it.


Might want to edit the "can" in the first sentence to "cannot." Confused me for a moment.


In regards to your critique of god mercy I would say that since the Christian view is humans are worthless, that gods mercy is undeserved and it is only through it some people are elect.


This might be a trivial point, but, given that there were references to "purpose" in the verses you quoted, I'm not sure if we can really call it mercy.

Also, there seems to be something missing in your approach. If one can do absolutely nothing to save himself, what is the point of even trying to follow the commandments, of asking for forgiveness, and of being loving? Why should there ever have been a Bible in the first place if only this group of the "elect" can be saved?

4095 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27 / M / Los Angeles, Cali...
Offline
Posted 6/16/08

digs wrote:

Purgatory isn't in the Bible, it's either heaven or hell. And only Christians who accept Jesus as their savior can go to heaven.


little do you know, purgatory was a major catholic belief forhundreds of years, so my argument has weight
3934 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
23 / F / dnt kno ...
Offline
Posted 6/16/08


i think from what ive learned and heard is dat the people who havent heard of the teachings of the gospel get the chance after their dead to be taught all about it dat way they wont be condemned....or sumthin like dat so its all good..!!!
First  Prev  1  2  3  4  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.