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Spreading The Gospel
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Posted 6/16/08

Shinjy wrote:

not another retard god thread!



GOD is not a RETARD!

and if you are not interested in this thread then don't POST
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Posted 6/16/08

MEMPHADON wrote:


digs wrote:

Purgatory isn't in the Bible, it's either heaven or hell. And only Christians who accept Jesus as their savior can go to heaven.


little do you know, purgatory was a major catholic belief forhundreds of years, so my argument has weight


But it is something the Catholics created, it isn't in the Bible. And that is what matters
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Posted 6/16/08

Regulus133 wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


Regulus133 wrote:

I just wanted to add a few ideas here...

1.) If only those who accept Jesus while on Earth are saved, then those who are never exposed to his existence and teachings would not be saved. This is clearly not in line with "mercy."
2.) If those who are not exposed to his existence and teachings are still saved, then it is actually better to not spread Christianity, apart from the commandment to do so, which really makes little sense in that light. In other words: if someone who is ignorant of the teachings is automatically saved, keep everyone ignorant.
3.) If people are individually judged based on their actions, then Jesus is irrelevant.


1 is biblical. Jesus clearly said the only way to the father is through him.


This statement alone is not sufficient to establish #1. It really depends on who gets to go "through him," which could include those who aren't aware or even everyone. Fortunately, the verses you cite seem to cover it pretty well unless they're in a context not included, are poorly translated, or are simply conveying a different meaning than we are getting.


There is a problem with just using the bible though. The bible itself is made up of works chosen from a larger pool. The old testament also has the Talmud as a guide to it, which the Jews used long before the supposed coming of Christ. In fact the Talmud clearly says that Genesis is not literal, which is something Young Earth Creationist are unaware off apparently. Then you toss in the oral traditions. You end up with a hodge podge of things which can support a great many conflicting ideas. Out of this mess the basic idea that is most in line with the texts in Calvinism (in my opinion). Basically, all humans are so corrupt they are worthless. This is because of the Fall, which is indeed biblical.


Heh--I must admit my part about the Bible was directed towards those who would consider it in and of itself rather than in a historical context or larger pool. Obviously you're right. But the "Fall" I mentioned referred to the story of the fall of Lucifer after he challenged God, a story certainly found in Paradise Lost but not, at least to my recollection, in the Bible, despite widespread belief in it. If you have anything on this, enlighten me.
The biblical fall is when Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree. I don't think Satan is mentioned, just a snake (who is Satan). It was when mankind feel from grace. This is the supposed reason for mans depravity.




2. Unconditional election (God's Election)
Before the start of time God choose people he would save not for merit but because of his mercy.


Regarding the verses you list in this section: although I already stated that they do a pretty good job of establishing what you said, I see room for interpretation and reconsideration in terms of context in all or at least most of them. Such tactics would obviously constitute a suspicious argument, but an argument could nevertheless be made for another side. Unfortunately, being biased because of my own upbringing, I don't think I could be completely objective in a real analysis of such a case.
I agree that the context of the verses is quite important to consider, as are the verses which appear to contradict these statements. One of the main problems with the bible is so many things contradict each other so it is hard to make sense out of anything.




4. Irresistible grace (Effectual Calling)
One can become unelect or resist the call of god. They are chosen by him and can do nothing about it.


Might want to edit the "can" in the first sentence to "cannot." Confused me for a moment.
Sorry about that.




In regards to your critique of god mercy I would say that since the Christian view is humans are worthless, that gods mercy is undeserved and it is only through it some people are elect.


This might be a trivial point, but, given that there were references to "purpose" in the verses you quoted, I'm not sure if we can really call it mercy.
There are other verses which speak of gods love (for god so loved the world etc). God has to have hell because of his nature, but he has saved some from it because he loves them, and that was his desire. His purpose was in a sense his mercy, or at least that was what Christians have always taught me.. Most people think the verses about love refer to all mankind, but a devout Calvinist would say he loves only the elect. I think that view is hard to support using the bible myself, but I do know a lot of people that devoutly believe it.


Also, there seems to be something missing in your approach. If one can do absolutely nothing to save himself, what is the point of even trying to follow the commandments, of asking for forgiveness, and of being loving? Why should there ever have been a Bible in the first place if only this group of the "elect" can be saved?


The elect will follow the commandments because they believe in the word of god. The bible is meant for the elect so they can learn about god. That is why it exists. It was not meant for the unelect and some even claim that no unelect person could understand it. The traditional view is that one must hear the gospel before becoming saved (though you would have been elect at birth). What saves you is faith in Christ-but you can only have that faith if god grants it to you. Obviously, you must know of Christ before you can be saved by faith in him. Your faith in the bible and Jesus is what shows you to be elect.
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Posted 6/16/08
This thread seems to be stressing that believing in Jesus a simple matter of going to heaven or hell. What people (including many Christians) need to understand is that God doesn't just want people to believe into Him for the sake of believing Him. He actually has a purpose for man. If you want an in-depth explanation on this, you can go to http://www.godseconomy.org/.

Basically, God wants man to express Himself. Obviously, one of the obstacles is that man has sin. So what did God do? He gave His son, Jesus, to die for our sins. So everyone has their sins forgiven? Not quite. In order to be forgiven of our sins, we need the blood of Jesus (not literally). Recall Abel and Cain, and every sacrifice made in the Old Testament for that matter. What did the acceptable sacrifices have in common? Blood from a being without blemish. Jesus was the sacrifice for all of our sins. So we need His blood. How do we get it? Ask for it. And to do this, we obviously need to believe that Jesus died for our sins.

Now, back to the main question. Anyone who has not been forgiven of their sins cannot be saved. Anyone who does not believe in Jesus cannot be forgiven of their sins. Therefore, anyone who does not believe in God cannot be saved. You may say that it is unfair to those too young or uninformed, but God does not lie does He?

I am missing so many points here that it's hard to accept, but a complete explanation would take years.
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Posted 6/16/08
i dont think mentally disabled and children goes to hell when they died!!...i mean they are innocent so how could they even get send to hell??

also the bottom line of GOD is to forgive>>>and i think he's also reasonable in a way!! i mean he should at least understand!!! how could they even listen to it, if they dont even understand it!!!
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Posted 6/16/08 , edited 6/16/08

sorenku wrote:

This thread seems to be stressing that believing in Jesus a simple matter of going to heaven or hell. What people (including many Christians) need to understand is that God doesn't just want people to believe into Him for the sake of believing Him. He actually has a purpose for man. If you want an in-depth explanation on this, you can go to http://www.godseconomy.org/.

Basically, God wants man to express Himself. Obviously, one of the obstacles is that man has sin. So what did God do? He gave His son, Jesus, to die for our sins. So everyone has their sins forgiven? Not quite. In order to be forgiven of our sins, we need the blood of Jesus (not literally). Recall Abel and Cain, and every sacrifice made in the Old Testament for that matter. What did the acceptable sacrifices have in common? Blood from a being without blemish. Jesus was the sacrifice for all of our sins. So we need His blood. How do we get it? Ask for it. And to do this, we obviously need to believe that Jesus died for our sins.
You can not ask for it unless you are chosen by god. No man seeketh after god remember? Romans 3:11 Man does not initiate things with god-god is the one responsible for a persons salvation.



Now, back to the main question. Anyone who has not been forgiven of their sins cannot be saved. Anyone who does not believe in Jesus cannot be forgiven of their sins. Therefore, anyone who does not believe in God cannot be saved. You may say that it is unfair to those too young or uninformed, but God does not lie does He?
It is unfair. Such a god is malevolent. Anyone who accepts that such a god is moral, would be someone I am forced to classify as morally repugnant. I could not worship this god even if he did exist. The fact you can says something about your lack of empathy for others.




I am missing so many points here that it's hard to accept, but a complete explanation would take years.


There is not moral defense of hell. None. It is an utterly awful doctrine. It is fun to notice how it is the Christian who always winds up defending genocide, hell, and all the other horrible things in the bible is it not? Any god that sent Ghandi, Oscar Wilde, Einstein, and will send all of the good non Christians now alive to hell can go to to hell. If you want to defend the horror go ahead.



1. A reality containing evil is less perfect than a reality with no evil in it.
2. Hell is a repository for evil (Christian assumption).
3. A reality with Hell in it has evil in it by definition.
4. From (1) and (3): A reality with no Hell in it is more perfect than a reality with no Hell.

A reality with no Hell could be achieved by removing the guilty from existence ... so why would an all good God unnecessarily maintain a less than perfect reality for all eternity?

God is omniscient; He feels everything we feel, suffers when we suffer. If we will burn in Hell, God will burn in Hell; there is a divine soul, a part of God, within all people.

This idea of Hell seems so cruel and pointless. Why make people suffer for eternity? That isn't justice, it's revenge. When God causes suffering or punishes people, it's supposed to be for our benefit, so we learn and spiritually progress, yet to simply punish for the sake of punishment, with no benefit whatsoever, is an illogical and seriously twisted idea.
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Posted 6/16/08

digs wrote:


MEMPHADON wrote:


digs wrote:

Purgatory isn't in the Bible, it's either heaven or hell. And only Christians who accept Jesus as their savior can go to heaven.


little do you know, purgatory was a major catholic belief forhundreds of years, so my argument has weight


But it is something the Catholics created, it isn't in the Bible. And that is what matters


its been years since i've read the bible, so i hardly remember any of it, but when was hell mentioned in the bible?

jw
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Posted 6/16/08
Mat 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Mat 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Luk 16:23 In hell,* where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,* putting them into gloomy dungeons* to be held for judgment;

Hell pops up a lot in the Bible. And it says that is where we go if we do not receive Christ and are forgiven of our sins.
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Posted 6/16/08

digs wrote:

But it is something the Catholics created, it isn't in the Bible. And that is what matters


meh depends on who's doing the judging and accepting which dogma(s)

Is the word trinity in the bible? not to my knowledge yet the concept is considered to exist. Catholics derived the concept of purgatory with a similar train of thought. the word purgatory is not in the bible but they derived the idea from it.

Ah men with limited minds interpreting a text and laying out absolutes....yet from the same book different groups form.
This is why one must not assume his knowledge of things is completely solid.

A well educated catholic and a well educated christian could argue for days whether or not concepts like that are supported or not and little progress will be made either way. I've seen it enough times.
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Posted 6/16/08 , edited 6/16/08

YouAreDumb wrote:

You can not ask for it unless you are chosen by god. No man seeketh after god remember? Romans 3:11 Man does not initiate things with god-god is the one responsible for a persons salvation.
This verse is actually quoted from Psalms Ch. 14 and 53. These chapters talk about a time where nobody believed in God. In Romans, Paul is talking specifically about those who have turned away from God. Don't take it out of context.


It is unfair. Such a god is malevolent. Anyone who accepts that such a god is moral, would be someone I am forced to classify as morally repugnant. I could not worship this god even if he did exist. The fact you can says something about your lack of empathy for others.
In Genesis ch. 2, there are 2 main trees in the Garden of Eden: the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, man became sinful and fell. So, prior to knowing good and evil, man had no sin. This shows that having man discern good vs. evil or morality is not what God wants. Besides, what right do we have to say whether or not God is righteous when we ourselves are unrighteous?


There is not moral defense of hell. None. It is an utterly awful doctrine. It is fun to notice how it is the Christian who always winds up defending genocide, hell, and all the other horrible things in the bible is it not? Any god that sent Ghandi, Oscar Wilde, Einstein, and will send all of the good non Christians now alive to hell can go to to hell. If you want to defend the horror go ahead.



1. A reality containing evil is less perfect than a reality with no evil in it.
2. Hell is a repository for evil (Christian assumption).
3. A reality with Hell in it has evil in it by definition.
4. From (1) and (3): A reality with no Hell in it is more perfect than a reality with no Hell.

A reality with no Hell could be achieved by removing the guilty from existence ... so why would an all good God unnecessarily maintain a less than perfect reality for all eternity?

God is omniscient; He feels everything we feel, suffers when we suffer. If we will burn in Hell, God will burn in Hell; there is a divine soul, a part of God, within all people.

This idea of Hell seems so cruel and pointless. Why make people suffer for eternity? That isn't justice, it's revenge. When God causes suffering or punishes people, it's supposed to be for our benefit, so we learn and spiritually progress, yet to simply punish for the sake of punishment, with no benefit whatsoever, is an illogical and seriously twisted idea.
A reality with no hell is more perfect than a reality with no hell? I get what you mean, but yeah.

Anyways, hell was originally created for Satan when he was judged. This happened before the fall of man. Hell was Satan's punishment for going against God. However, when man fell, Satan corrupted man and made us sinful. According to God's righteousness, man had to be judged as well and was destined to go to hell. So now, God is not trying to punish us, but trying to save us from going to hell. Those who believe will be saved from judgment. (Mark 16:16)
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Posted 6/16/08

sorenku wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:

You can not ask for it unless you are chosen by god. No man seeketh after god remember? Romans 3:11 Man does not initiate things with god-god is the one responsible for a persons salvation.
This verse is actually quoted from Psalms Ch. 14 and 53. These chapters talk about a time where nobody believed in God. In Romans, Paul is talking specifically about those who have turned away from God. Don't take it out of
context
I am not, and even if I was the verses I posted above apply well enough


.


It is unfair. Such a god is malevolent. Anyone who accepts that such a god is moral, would be someone I am forced to classify as morally repugnant. I could not worship this god even if he did exist. The fact you can says something about your lack of empathy for others.
In Genesis ch. 2, there are 2 main trees in the Garden of Eden: the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, man became sinful and fell. So, prior to knowing good and evil, man had no sin. This shows that having man discern good vs. evil or morality is not what God wants.

False. If god had wanted that he could have made Eve so this would not have happened, and since he created them with their minds already formed he in effect controlled all actions they would take from then on. QED



Besides, what right do we have to say whether or not God is righteous when we ourselves are unrighteous?
God is only righteous if we accept he is such. Is good so because god commands, or because god is bound to follow objective morals? If the first is true then god morals are as subjective as any others, and if the second is true there is something greater than him to which he is subject. Either way it does not look good for Christian theism.


There is not moral defense of hell. None. It is an utterly awful doctrine. It is fun to notice how it is the Christian who always winds up defending genocide, hell, and all the other horrible things in the bible is it not? Any god that sent Ghandi, Oscar Wilde, Einstein, and will send all of the good non Christians now alive to hell can go to to hell. If you want to defend the horror go ahead.



1. A reality containing evil is less perfect than a reality with no evil in it.
2. Hell is a repository for evil (Christian assumption).
3. A reality with Hell in it has evil in it by definition.
4. From (1) and (3): A reality with no Hell in it is more perfect than a reality with no Hell.

A reality with no Hell could be achieved by removing the guilty from existence ... so why would an all good God unnecessarily maintain a less than perfect reality for all eternity?

God is omniscient; He feels everything we feel, suffers when we suffer. If we will burn in Hell, God will burn in Hell; there is a divine soul, a part of God, within all people.

This idea of Hell seems so cruel and pointless. Why make people suffer for eternity? That isn't justice, it's revenge. When God causes suffering or punishes people, it's supposed to be for our benefit, so we learn and spiritually progress, yet to simply punish for the sake of punishment, with no benefit whatsoever, is an illogical and seriously twisted idea.
A reality with no hell is more perfect than a reality with no hell? I get what you mean, but yeah.

Anyways, hell was originally created for Satan when he was judged. This happened before the fall of man. Hell was Satan's punishment for going against God. However, when man fell, Satan corrupted man and made us sinful. According to God's righteousness, man had to be judged as well and was destined to go to hell.Then god is evil and we should be defiant.



So now, God is not trying to punish us, but trying to save us from going to hell. Those who believe will be saved from judgment. (Mark 16:16)

Those who do not get a chance to believe are just fucked though right? I am afraid I do not define that as god trying to save us, or otherwise everyone would know who Jesus was. He could have wrote it in the stars, or sent Jesus to each nation to teach of him. He did not do these things, so he clearly he is not using almost any power to try to save mankind is he?
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Posted 6/16/08
I don't want to argue with your opinions, so I'll stop here. We'll find out the real truth when the world ends.
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Posted 6/17/08

YouAreDumb wrote:

The elect will follow the commandments because they believe in the word of god. The bible is meant for the elect so they can learn about god. That is why it exists. It was not meant for the unelect and some even claim that no unelect person could understand it. The traditional view is that one must hear the gospel before becoming saved (though you would have been elect at birth). What saves you is faith in Christ-but you can only have that faith if god grants it to you. Obviously, you must know of Christ before you can be saved by faith in him. Your faith in the bible and Jesus is what shows you to be elect.


I think this just puts the problem off another step. If being elect itself requires no effort, then there is no reason for anyone to submit to the rules in the Bible. In other words: if one who is elect cannot undo his being so, he is bound and therefore can do as he pleases (even if that is, by virtue of his being elect, simply the "good"); similarly, one who is not elect can do as he pleases, as his fate, too, is sealed.
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Posted 6/17/08

sorenku wrote:

I don't want to argue with your opinions, so I'll stop here. We'll find out the real truth when the world ends.


There's a difference between arguing opinions and actually critiquing the arguments. In fact, I'm finding it difficult to identify the "opinions" in the post to which you're responding. This doesn't need to be a fight, but you two haven't even reached the point where it's all just about what each person believes.
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Posted 6/18/08

sorenku wrote:

I don't want to argue with your opinions, so I'll stop here. We'll find out the real truth when the world ends.


i've thought about going on a preacher killing spree so many times for that final truth but it occurs to me when they're dead, they wont know that final truth at all.
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