First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Next  Last
It makes no sense for god to create beings who do evil
1283 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Everywhere you wa...
Offline
Posted 5/27/08 , edited 5/27/08
It's just a slight variant of other "Problem of Evil" arguments, but I just want to see how theists would answer a few questions.

I'm assuming for the sake of the argument, that moral realism is true, that "free will", "omnipotence", etc., are coherent concepts (whatever they might be), and that God has free will (if someone argues that God doesn't have free will, I can adapt my argument accordingly). "Good" means "morally good", unless otherwise specified.

God is the maximal God: He's omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good, and he's maximally powerful, maximally knowledgeable, and maximally good (probably, that's repetitive, but just to avoid arguments about those points), and God created all other entities (directly or by creating entities - in a general sense; any mechanism would do - that would in turn make other entities).

By assumption, entities that have free will but are perfectly good, are possible (an example would be God).

So, when God decides to create an entity with free will, he can (by omnipotence) create an entity that is morally perfect (unless there's a reason to believe otherwise; but that would seem to need arguing).

My first questions are:

1) Can God create entities that are not perfectly good?

2) If so, how's that possible?

If he does create them, he'll be changing a world where entities capable of morality are all perfectly morally good, into one in which there are entities that aren't perfectly morally good.

However, God is maximally good, and tries to shape the best possible world (in other senses too, I'd say, but at least morally, so I'll limit my argument to that), and a world where all moral entities are perfectly good seems better than one in which they're not.

Assuming that that's possible, my next questions are:

3) Can God create entities that will do evil?

4) How is that possible?

Given that he knows that they will do evil (omniscience), he's choosing to introduce evil in a world without evil, while he could avoid that by creating an entity that will not do evil (even though it will have free will), or not creating any entity at all.

In more simple form:


1. A maximally good being will always choose the best option it can.
2. A maximally powerful being can choose any logically possible option.
3. A maximally good being is possible.
4. Creating a maximally good being is a better option than creating a less-than-maximally good being.
5. Therefore a maximally good and powerful being will never create a less-than-maximally good being.
6. Less-than-maximally good beings exist.
7. Therefore, the less-than-maximally good beings were not created by a maximally good and powerful being.
3649 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / F
Offline
Posted 5/27/08
good point... O.O
11704 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
24 / M / TN
Offline
Posted 5/27/08
your retarded, its called free agency. he is testing us and gives us free will. wow your so dumb
1283 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Everywhere you wa...
Offline
Posted 5/27/08

Katorulez93 wrote:

your retarded, its called free agency. he is testing us and gives us free will. wow your so dumb


I do not think you understand my argument. If you have nothing relevant to say then GTFO. Kthankbai (thought you might understand that better).
11704 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
24 / M / TN
Offline
Posted 5/27/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


Katorulez93 wrote:

your retarded, its called free agency. he is testing us and gives us free will. wow your so dumb


I do not think you understand my argument. If you have nothing relevant to say then GTFO. Kthankbai (thought you might understand that better).


there isnt an argument, therez the question which is the title of the thread and my answer which is correct. enough said little kid
1283 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Everywhere you wa...
Offline
Posted 5/27/08 , edited 5/27/08

NarutoXHinata4ever678 wrote:

God creates people pure and innocent when they are born, Its the decisions that people take in life there free will that each of us have that make us who we are. It also determines on how a person is raised as well that makes a person evil or good or just an flat out asshole you guys have to figure out everything you do in life is your choice, from good or bad


However if god is morally perfect and has free will , then logically beings who are totally good can exist with free will.
1283 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Everywhere you wa...
Offline
Posted 5/27/08

Katorulez93 wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


Katorulez93 wrote:

your retarded, its called free agency. he is testing us and gives us free will. wow your so dumb


I do not think you understand my argument. If you have nothing relevant to say then GTFO. Kthankbai (thought you might understand that better).


there isnt an argument, therez the question which is the title of the thread and my answer which is correct. enough said little kid

Uh no. Read the OP. There is clearly an argument there.
Scientist Moderator
digs 
48142 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / M
Offline
Posted 5/27/08
Everything absent of God is evil, sin is evil, and the devil is evil. God created everything. God created the angels, and God gave them emotions angels have souls and thoughts. Satan was the second ranked being in all creation, he was called the Morning Star and was powerful (not all powerful though) Satan had a heart that wanted to be greater than God, and that was the first sin, pride. Because sin cannot be present in the face of God, Satan was banished to walk the earth (along with the converted angels who are knows as demons) When God created humans, he gave us a soul that is capable of emotion. Most importantly, the human soul has the capability to love. God wants us to love Him (He deserves it) and we are to glorify and praise His Holy Name. However, true love is a choice and cannot be forced upon people. I believe that God created us and gave us the choice to love Him or not. Satan tempted Adam and Eve to sin, and they did. Sin entered the human race, and because of that, we all fall short of God's Glory and have sin in our lives (sin is evil after al) Because our sin is within all human beings, we are separate from God. Satan roams this earth trying to enforce his will (that all go to hell and sin) God sent Jesus as a sacrifice for sin. If we repent and accept it, our sins are forgiven (they are no longer there) and because our sins are forgiven, we may enter heaven when we die. We may also have a personal relationship with God on earth. Because God is perfect and Holy, He cannot have sin in his presence, which is why He loved us so much to die, so that we may be given the gift of forgiveness. God does not create evil or sin. God has His laws and commands. Breaking those laws and commands is what creates sin. Sin is evil, and evil is the absence of God.
11704 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
24 / M / TN
Offline
Posted 5/27/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


Katorulez93 wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


Katorulez93 wrote:

your retarded, its called free agency. he is testing us and gives us free will. wow your so dumb


I do not think you understand my argument. If you have nothing relevant to say then GTFO. Kthankbai (thought you might understand that better).


there isnt an argument, therez the question which is the title of the thread and my answer which is correct. enough said little kid

Uh no. Read the OP. There is clearly an argument there.


no im right thats it
1283 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Everywhere you wa...
Offline
Posted 5/27/08

digs wrote:

Everything absent of God is evil, sin is evil, and the devil is evil. God created everything. God created the angels, and God gave them emotions angels have souls and thoughts. Satan was the second ranked being in all creation, he was called the Morning Star and was powerful (not all powerful though) Satan had a heart that wanted to be greater than God, and that was the first sin, pride. Because sin cannot be present in the face of God, Satan was banished to walk the earth (along with the converted angels who are knows as demons) When God created humans, he gave us a soul that is capable of emotion. Most importantly, the human soul has the capability to love. God wants us to love Him (He deserves it) and we are to glorify and praise His Holy Name. However, true love is a choice and cannot be forced upon people. I believe that God created us and gave us the choice to love Him or not. Satan tempted Adam and Eve to sin, and they did. Sin entered the human race, and because of that, we all fall short of God's Glory and have sin in our lives (sin is evil after al) Because our sin is within all human beings, we are separate from God. Satan roams this earth trying to enforce his will (that all go to hell and sin) God sent Jesus as a sacrifice for sin. If we repent and accept it, our sins are forgiven (they are no longer there) and because our sins are forgiven, we may enter heaven when we die. We may also have a personal relationship with God on earth. Because God is perfect and Holy, He cannot have sin in his presence, which is why He loved us so much to die, so that we may be given the gift of forgiveness. God does not create evil or sin. God has His laws and commands. Breaking those laws and commands is what creates sin. Sin is evil, and evil is the absence of God.

That in no way addresses my argument at all. You are missing the point here. If free will is something god has, and god is totally good, the beings who are totally good can have free will-and choose not to use it. Please try to grasp my OP, as I am not going to say it all again here.
Scientist Moderator
digs 
48142 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / M
Offline
Posted 5/27/08 , edited 5/27/08
If you want to be technical, God created beings capable of perfection. We in our foolishness chose sin. In essence, Satan created sin, and so did humanity. God set the laws and standards, and Satan broke them. Later Adam and Eve broke them and sin entered the world. God did not create sin.

To post above- God does have free will, but God is also perfect. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to love us. If God wanted to He could destroy everything and start over, but He doesn't.
1283 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Everywhere you wa...
Offline
Posted 5/27/08
I see now that this is pretty pointless. CR is on the whole (in my arrogant opinion) far to stupid to come up with coherent objections to my actual argument.
11704 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
24 / M / TN
Offline
Posted 5/27/08

YouAreDumb wrote:

I see now that this is pretty pointless. CR is on the whole (in my arrogant opinion) far to stupid to come up with coherent objections to my actual argument.


no your just dumb, we are right
1283 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Everywhere you wa...
Offline
Posted 5/27/08 , edited 5/27/08

digs wrote:

If you want to be technical, God created beings capable of perfection. We in our foolishness chose sin. In essence, Satan created sin, and so did humanity. God set the laws and standards, and Satan broke them. Later Adam and Eve broke them and sin entered the world. God did not create sin.

Digs he could have made us so that we have free will, and ARE perfect(since if god has free will morally perfect beings can exist who have free will, and an omnipotent god could have made it so we would be such.). Also your assertion goes against the doctrine of original sin, and is therefore a heresy. For the love of Thor attack my argument in a non idiot fashion.
Scientist Moderator
digs 
48142 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / M
Offline
Posted 5/27/08 , edited 5/27/08
But the key word you are using is made. God created beings capable of love. And God wants us to love Him by choice, not by force.

the angels in heaven are morally perfect beings. When given the chance to rebel, they chose not to and to serve God. They are sinless yet have free will, but choose to serve God. How does what I say go against the doctrine of sin? Stop acting like you know everything, we are attacking your argument. But it isn't what you want to hear. You are not all knowing.
First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.