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It makes no sense for god to create beings who do evil
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Posted 5/27/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


digs wrote:

If you want to be technical, God created beings capable of perfection. We in our foolishness chose sin. In essence, Satan created sin, and so did humanity. God set the laws and standards, and Satan broke them. Later Adam and Eve broke them and sin entered the world. God did not create sin.

Digs he could have made us so that we have free will, and ARE perfect(since if god has free will morally perfect beings can exist who have free will, and an omnipotent god could have made it so we would be such.). Also your assertion goes against the doctrine of original sin, and is therefore a heresy. For the love of Thor attack my argument in a non idiot fashion.


ahh wow your so dumb, he is testing us to see if we are good and worthy people so why would he make us perfect. there is no free agency in that
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Posted 5/27/08

digs wrote:

But the key word you are using is made. God created beings capable of love. And God wants us to love Him by choice, not by force.

the angels in heaven are morally perfect beings. When given the chance to rebel, they chose not to and to serve God. They are sinless yet have free will, but choose to serve God.


Thats not an objection to my point. Did you even read my OP?
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Posted 5/27/08

Katorulez93 wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


digs wrote:

If you want to be technical, God created beings capable of perfection. We in our foolishness chose sin. In essence, Satan created sin, and so did humanity. God set the laws and standards, and Satan broke them. Later Adam and Eve broke them and sin entered the world. God did not create sin.

Digs he could have made us so that we have free will, and ARE perfect(since if god has free will morally perfect beings can exist who have free will, and an omnipotent god could have made it so we would be such.). Also your assertion goes against the doctrine of original sin, and is therefore a heresy. For the love of Thor attack my argument in a non idiot fashion.


ahh wow your so dumb, he is testing us to see if we are good and worthy people so why would he make us perfect. there is no free agency in that


Yes there is, since free will would be preserved. The difference is that all people would choose to be good.
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Posted 5/27/08

Given that he knows that they will do evil (omniscience), he's choosing to introduce evil in a world without evil, while he could avoid that by creating an entity that will not do evil (even though it will have free will), or not creating any entity at all.


I am taking that is what you are asking. And I have discussed this. God did not introduce evil into the world. God gave us free will. Satan exercised his free will and became proud of himself and desired to be God (the sin of pride) Satan sinned and because he sinned he was no longer perfect and could not reside in heaven. Satan was banished to the earth and he tempted Adam and Eve into sin. Adam and Eve Chose to sin, and thus sin was brought upon the human race. Did God create this? No, our free wills did. I am not repeating everything I posted, read my previous posts and understand what I am saying.
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Posted 5/27/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


Katorulez93 wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


digs wrote:

If you want to be technical, God created beings capable of perfection. We in our foolishness chose sin. In essence, Satan created sin, and so did humanity. God set the laws and standards, and Satan broke them. Later Adam and Eve broke them and sin entered the world. God did not create sin.

Digs he could have made us so that we have free will, and ARE perfect(since if god has free will morally perfect beings can exist who have free will, and an omnipotent god could have made it so we would be such.). Also your assertion goes against the doctrine of original sin, and is therefore a heresy. For the love of Thor attack my argument in a non idiot fashion.


ahh wow your so dumb, he is testing us to see if we are good and worthy people so why would he make us perfect. there is no free agency in that


Yes there is, since free will would be preserved. The difference is that all people would choose to be good.


YOU ARE SO RETARDED!!!hahaha me and my friends are gettin a kick out of this. i mean everything you say is so dumb. what grade r u in? 1st? lol so you say make them perfect and they choose to do good, making someone something is not free will. if you MAKE them perfect the good decisions are bc they are made to do it. lol your such a fucktard haha
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Posted 5/27/08

digs wrote:


Given that he knows that they will do evil (omniscience), he's choosing to introduce evil in a world without evil, while he could avoid that by creating an entity that will not do evil (even though it will have free will), or not creating any entity at all.


I am taking that is what you are asking. And I have discussed this. God did not introduce evil into the world. God gave us free will. Satan exercised his free will and became proud of himself and desired to be God (the sin of pride) Satan sinned and because he sinned he was no longer perfect and could not reside in heaven. Satan was banished to the earth and he tempted Adam and Eve into sin. Adam and Eve Chose to sin, and thus sin was brought upon the human race. Did God create this? No, our free wills did. I am not repeating everything I posted, read my previous posts and understand what I am saying.


You are the one who fail to understand digs. God has free will. God is also morally perfect. By assumption, entities that have free will but are perfectly good, are possible (an example would be God).

So, when God decides to create an entity with free will, he can (by omnipotence) create an entity that is morally perfect (unless there's a reason to believe otherwise; but that would seem to need arguing).


If he does create them, he'll be changing a world where entities capable of morality are all perfectly morally good, into one in which there are entities that aren't perfectly morally good.

However, God is maximally good, and tries to shape the best possible world (in other senses too, I'd say, but at least morally, so I'll limit my argument to that), and a world where all moral entities are perfectly good seems better than one in which they're not.

Given that he knows that they will do evil (omniscience), he's choosing to introduce evil in a world without evil, while he could avoid that by creating an entity that will not do evil (even though it will have free will), or not creating any entity at all.

I have never seen someone miss the point so spectacularly.
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Posted 5/27/08

Katorulez93 wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


Katorulez93 wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


digs wrote:

If you want to be technical, God created beings capable of perfection. We in our foolishness chose sin. In essence, Satan created sin, and so did humanity. God set the laws and standards, and Satan broke them. Later Adam and Eve broke them and sin entered the world. God did not create sin.

Digs he could have made us so that we have free will, and ARE perfect(since if god has free will morally perfect beings can exist who have free will, and an omnipotent god could have made it so we would be such.). Also your assertion goes against the doctrine of original sin, and is therefore a heresy. For the love of Thor attack my argument in a non idiot fashion.


ahh wow your so dumb, he is testing us to see if we are good and worthy people so why would he make us perfect. there is no free agency in that


Yes there is, since free will would be preserved. The difference is that all people would choose to be good.


YOU ARE SO RETARDED!!!hahaha me and my friends are gettin a kick out of this. i mean everything you say is so dumb. what grade r u in? 1st? lol so you say make them perfect and they choose to do good, making someone something is not free will. if you MAKE them perfect the good decisions are bc they are made to do it. lol your such a fucktard haha


You are not making them choose good. However, if god has free will, then totally good moral beings can be created who have free will, since god is such. He does not have to force them, since they will choose to do good of their own volition. I will not respond to your trolling any longer.
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I guess I will come back later. Hopefully, someone who fails less then Digs Kat whatever will have responded.
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Posted 5/27/08
You are missing my point


Given that he knows that they will do evil (omniscience), he's choosing to introduce evil in a world without evil, while he could avoid that by creating an entity that will not do evil (even though it will have free will), or not creating any entity at all.


God did not introduce evil into the world. Because beings have free will, they can choose to sin. Satan chose it and thus became imperfect and evil. Humans chose sin as well and we became imperfect and sinful. Sin was created by Satan, and then created by humans (who still create it) Sin is the creation of beings that posses free will and choose to use their will against what God desires. Sin is the absence of God.
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Posted 5/27/08

YouAreDumb wrote:

I guess I will come back later. Hopefully, someone who fails less then Digs Kat whatever will have responded.


the only failer here is you, you dont know what free agency is, you dont know anything about god, the sign of a true failure.

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Posted 5/27/08
Kat, it isn't good to flame. If you are a Christian we should show Christ's perfect love to others. Just don't get offended by what he says and ground yourself in God.
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Posted 5/27/08

digs wrote:

You are missing my point


Given that he knows that they will do evil (omniscience), he's choosing to introduce evil in a world without evil, while he could avoid that by creating an entity that will not do evil (even though it will have free will), or not creating any entity at all.


God did not introduce evil into the world. Because beings have free will, they can choose to sin.

Since it is possible for free will to exist for a morally perfect being, then god (being omnipotent) could make us so that we have free will, but will choose to do good. I do not think you get this simple concept which utterly refutes your point.



Satan chose it and thus became imperfect and evil. Humans chose sin as well and we became imperfect and sinful. Sin was created by Satan, and then created by humans (who still create it) Sin is the creation of beings that posses free will and choose to use their will against what God desires. Sin is the absence of God.


Questions:
1. Do people in heaven have free will?
If so
2. Can I turn against god?

3. Can I sin at all there?
It seems likely than imperfect humans in heaven will sin at some point if they are there forever. Maybe after 389484489384893 years. But if god can not be in sins presence he would have to banish them to hell. Right?
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Posted 5/27/08 , edited 5/27/08
I don't get why you need to make such a thread if you're going to refute every single opinion made by the other users. Did you not mention that "I just want to see how theists would answer a few questions?"

Religious people believe that god made everyone good, and that in the journey of life, temptation presents itself. And it is up to the individual to follow "Satan" or to follow "God." They believe that God made them out of his free will. And he gave the humans free will as well. This means, that humans are given the choice to live their lives the way they want to, if they want to be good or bad, whatever.

A person is not evil, it is the things that the person does that is evil. Evil is completely subjective.

I remember you saying that you're an Agnostic... Why do you keep on contradicting the religious beliefs of others? Are you trying to prove something?
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Posted 5/27/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


digs wrote:

You are missing my point


Given that he knows that they will do evil (omniscience), he's choosing to introduce evil in a world without evil, while he could avoid that by creating an entity that will not do evil (even though it will have free will), or not creating any entity at all.


God did not introduce evil into the world. Because beings have free will, they can choose to sin.

Since it is possible for free will to exist for a morally perfect being, then god (being omnipotent) could make us so that we have free will, but will choose to do good. I do not think you get this simple concept which utterly refutes your point.



Satan chose it and thus became imperfect and evil. Humans chose sin as well and we became imperfect and sinful. Sin was created by Satan, and then created by humans (who still create it) Sin is the creation of beings that posses free will and choose to use their will against what God desires. Sin is the absence of God.


Questions:
1. Do people in heaven have free will?
If so
2. Can I turn against god?

3. Can I sin at all there?
It seems likely than imperfect humans in heaven will sin at some point if they are there forever. Maybe after 389484489384893 years. But if god can not be in sins presence he would have to banish them to hell. Right?


u are so dumb haha the point of a thread is to see what others say and share opinions etc, not argue with everyone who is right. your wrong
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Posted 5/27/08

geeene_16 wrote:

I don't get why you need to make such a thread if you're going to refute every single opinion
i refute arguments not opinions. This is a discussion about an attack on the logic of an all knowing, all good, all powerful god-of course it will have arguments in it.




made by the other users. Did you not mention that "I just want to see how theists would answer a few questions?"

Religious people believe that god made everyone good, and that in the journey of life, temptation presents itself. And it is up to the individual to follow "Satan" or to follow "God." They believe that God made them out of his free will. And he gave the humans free will as well. This means, that humans are given the choice to live their lives the way they want to, if they want to be good or bad, whatever.
I already explained why god could make us have free will, and so that we would still choose good. See OP.


A person is not evil, it is the things that the person does that is evil. Evil is completely subjective.
It works however you define evil.



I remember you saying that you're an Agnostic... Why do you keep on contradicting the religious beliefs of others? Are you trying to prove something?


Yes of course; I am right.
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