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It makes no sense for god to create beings who do evil
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And what do you get from proving that you are "right?" Besides, your points are considered right for people who have the same stance as you. But they are wrong for the believers. And whatever "refutation" you come up with, you're proving nothing. They believe this, you believe that, and you can't change any of it. (-___-")

YouAreDumb wrote:
This is a discussion about an attack on the logic of an all knowing, all good, all powerful god-of course it will have arguments in it.

Why do you need to "attack" the logic behind this god? We all know that religious debates or discussion will not come to an end. No one would be deemed the winner.
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Posted 5/27/08
I have the answers here using irrefutable numbers and sherlock holmes style deduction.

Questions 1-3

By all good im assuming you are saying he is 100% good. At 100% of good there is no room for evil. Heres a pie chart

O

blue= good
red=evil



as the chart indicates there is no evil in this god you have presented to us, Why would a 100% good god create something evil? He wouldn't because then he wouldnt be 100% good or "all" good as you have presented.

The counter point as stated in the beginning is that he is all powerful. If he can't make something evil then he would be 99.999999...% powerful and that doesnt match the criteria. So being stated that he is all powerful he can make evil.


Does it make sense that an all good god would create evil? No. Therefore, a god who creates evil is not 100% or "maximum" good. All knowing all good all powerful god could create evil if he chose to, but the being all good part prevents him from doing so.

Question 4

Hes all powerful, if he cant do one thing then hes not all powerful.






I answered your questions. your welcome



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Posted 5/27/08

OptimusGatts wrote:

I have the answers here using irrefutable numbers and sherlock holmes style deduction.

Questions 1-3

By all good im assuming you are saying he is 100% good. At 100% of good there is no room for evil. Heres a pie chart

O

blue= good
red=evil



as the chart indicates there is no evil in this god you have presented to us, Why would a 100% good god create something evil? He wouldn't because then he wouldnt be 100% good or "all" good as you have presented.

The counter point as stated in the beginning is that he is all powerful. If he can't make something evil then he would be 99.999999...% powerful and that doesnt match the criteria. So being stated that he is all powerful he can make evil.


Does it make sense that an all good god would create evil? No. Therefore, a god who creates evil is not 100% or "maximum" good. All knowing all good all powerful god could create evil if he chose to, but the being all good part prevents him from doing so.

Question 4

Hes all powerful, if he cant do one thing then hes not all powerful.






I answered your questions. your welcome






god didnt create things that are equal, he created people with free agency and they chose to be evil. he put us on earth to test us and some failed. Satan used his free agency to do evil and wanted to control people and make them do things and thus he went to hell.
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digs 
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Posted 5/28/08
What? Satan isn't in hell... yet. He roams the earth tempting people until the day of judgment. God is 100% good. There is no Sin in God. You all keep forgetting my point that Satan created sin, and so did humans. We are capable of obeying, or creating sin with our free will.
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Posted 5/28/08
There is pain and sufferings that exist in the world. We find sickness, old age and death. We see things that are ugly, people who are insane and foolish. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. We also see people commit sins, show disloyalty, unfaithfulness, greed and insincerity. We see people commit rapes, murders; they fight and make wars. We know all these and many more problems. There are evils caused by human beings and there are natural disasters. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.

But we also know that this is not the whole story. Besides all these negative things, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. It is wrong to see one side of the coin and not to see the other side. Any philosophy that concentrates on one aspect of the creation and denies or ignores the other side is partially true and partial truths are no truth at all.

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Posted 5/28/08
If God has to answer all are prayers and keep everybody happy without affecting their free will then.....remember Bruce Almighty?
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Posted 5/28/08

digs wrote:

What? Satan isn't in hell... yet. He roams the earth tempting people until the day of judgment. God is 100% good. There is no Sin in God. You all keep forgetting my point that Satan created sin, and so did humans. We are capable of obeying, or creating sin with our free will.


Your claim is god made us perfect to start with before right? Not very logical Digs. According to Digs until one acts in evil, he is perfect.

A perfect being should be able to take no action that would render him imperfect. Part of perfection is remaining perfect, and never falling from that high place - otherwise you could potentially have a different perfect being that stays perfect longer, which is better than your short-term perfect being. If anything is better than a perfect being, then that 'perfect being' cannot be perfect, since perfection implies that there is nothing better, nothing at all
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digs 
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Posted 5/28/08
What? Your logic makes no sense. You can be perfect and then become imperfect. What I am saying, is that since Adam and Eve sinned, sin came into the human race. Because of that, all humans are born sinful and imperfect. Perfection does mean that there is nothing better, and at one point when we didn't have sin, we could not become any better. We already had fellowship directly with God, we had no pains, and there was no death. We chose to create sin and that made us imperfect.
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Posted 5/28/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


digs wrote:

What? Satan isn't in hell... yet. He roams the earth tempting people until the day of judgment. God is 100% good. There is no Sin in God. You all keep forgetting my point that Satan created sin, and so did humans. We are capable of obeying, or creating sin with our free will.


Your claim is god made us perfect to start with before right? Not very logical Digs. According to Digs until one acts in evil, he is perfect.

A perfect being should be able to take no action that would render him imperfect. Part of perfection is remaining perfect, and never falling from that high place - otherwise you could potentially have a different perfect being that stays perfect longer, which is better than your short-term perfect being. If anything is better than a perfect being, then that 'perfect being' cannot be perfect, since perfection implies that there is nothing better, nothing at all


remember Adam and Eve? they were perfect beings untill satan tempted them to eat the forbidden fruit.
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Posted 5/28/08

digs wrote:

What? Your logic makes no sense. You can be perfect and then become imperfect. What I am saying, is that since Adam and Eve sinned, sin came into the human race. Because of that, all humans are born sinful and imperfect. Perfection does mean that there is nothing better,
Yes it does by definition. Provide me with your alternate definition if you wish.

and at one point when we didn't have sin, we could not become any better. We already had fellowship directly with God, we had no pains, and there was no death. We chose to create sin and that made us imperfect.

You must have ignore my last post, since nothing you said attacked it's logic. I am starting to think you are mentally deficient.
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Posted 5/28/08

Katorulez93 wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


digs wrote:

What? Satan isn't in hell... yet. He roams the earth tempting people until the day of judgment. God is 100% good. There is no Sin in God. You all keep forgetting my point that Satan created sin, and so did humans. We are capable of obeying, or creating sin with our free will.


Your claim is god made us perfect to start with before right? Not very logical Digs. According to Digs until one acts in evil, he is perfect.

A perfect being should be able to take no action that would render him imperfect. Part of perfection is remaining perfect, and never falling from that high place - otherwise you could potentially have a different perfect being that stays perfect longer, which is better than your short-term perfect being. If anything is better than a perfect being, then that 'perfect being' cannot be perfect, since perfection implies that there is nothing better, nothing at all


remember Adam and Eve? they were perfect beings untill satan tempted them to eat the forbidden fruit.


Not logical since my post showed how a perfect being would not do something wrong.

Man you guys are idiots. Pure morons.
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Posted 5/28/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


Katorulez93 wrote:


YouAreDumb wrote:


digs wrote:

What? Satan isn't in hell... yet. He roams the earth tempting people until the day of judgment. God is 100% good. There is no Sin in God. You all keep forgetting my point that Satan created sin, and so did humans. We are capable of obeying, or creating sin with our free will.


Your claim is god made us perfect to start with before right? Not very logical Digs. According to Digs until one acts in evil, he is perfect.

A perfect being should be able to take no action that would render him imperfect. Part of perfection is remaining perfect, and never falling from that high place - otherwise you could potentially have a different perfect being that stays perfect longer, which is better than your short-term perfect being. If anything is better than a perfect being, then that 'perfect being' cannot be perfect, since perfection implies that there is nothing better, nothing at all


remember Adam and Eve? they were perfect beings untill satan tempted them to eat the forbidden fruit.


Not logical since my post showed how a perfect being would not do something wrong.

Man you guys are idiots. Pure morons.


your so dumb lol hahaha, your stupidity never ends eh???? Why would god make us perfect if he wants to test us? haha thanks for this, i love laughing at stupidity
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Posted 5/28/08
He gave us FREE WILL

He's still testing us today. He's seeing who knows what's good & what's bad

You can't ever expect God to suddenly say "THAT'S WRONG! DON'T DO IT!"
........actually, he's already saying it..we just block him out of our minds and hearts.

God is our conscience. He's the one that knows what is good. It's just that people block him out a lot, thus making the conscience disappear...THERE! You get bad people.........
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YouAreDumb wrote:

It's just a slight variant of other "Problem of Evil" arguments, but I just want to see how theists would answer a few questions.

I'm assuming for the sake of the argument, that moral realism is true, that "free will", "omnipotence", etc., are coherent concepts (whatever they might be), and that God has free will (if someone argues that God doesn't have free will, I can adapt my argument accordingly). "Good" means "morally good", unless otherwise specified.

God is the maximal God: He's omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good, and he's maximally powerful, maximally knowledgeable, and maximally good (probably, that's repetitive, but just to avoid arguments about those points), and God created all other entities (directly or by creating entities - in a general sense; any mechanism would do - that would in turn make other entities).

By assumption, entities that have free will but are perfectly good, are possible (an example would be God).

So, when God decides to create an entity with free will, he can (by omnipotence) create an entity that is morally perfect (unless there's a reason to believe otherwise; but that would seem to need arguing).

My first questions are:

1) Can God create entities that are not perfectly good?

2) If so, how's that possible?

If he does create them, he'll be changing a world where entities capable of morality are all perfectly morally good, into one in which there are entities that aren't perfectly morally good.

However, God is maximally good, and tries to shape the best possible world (in other senses too, I'd say, but at least morally, so I'll limit my argument to that), and a world where all moral entities are perfectly good seems better than one in which they're not.

Assuming that that's possible, my next questions are:

3) Can God create entities that will do evil?

4) How is that possible?

Given that he knows that they will do evil (omniscience), he's choosing to introduce evil in a world without evil, while he could avoid that by creating an entity that will not do evil (even though it will have free will), or not creating any entity at all.

In more simple form:


1. A maximally good being will always choose the best option it can.
2. A maximally powerful being can choose any logically possible option.
3. A maximally good being is possible.
4. Creating a maximally good being is a better option than creating a less-than-maximally good being.
5. Therefore a maximally good and powerful being will never create a less-than-maximally good being.
6. Less-than-maximally good beings exist.
7. Therefore, the less-than-maximally good beings were not created by a maximally good and powerful being.


There are way too many assumptions in your argument. Asking for us to accept the truth of moral realism sets a scale in which to measure your own argument. If we were to accept, we would have already entered your domain, one that was constructed for the sole purpose of proving some point. Yet what good reason do we have to believe such an exclusive scale exists? None. In this argument, that is the essential driving point, by giving you such grounds, we have not only given you a premise, but the conclusion to the argument itself.

Also, we have no reason to believe that 'good'(absolute) is 'morally good'. Morality is a construct of human beings to classify things that effect themselves in the world. The pleasurable things become 'morally good' and the less pleasurable things become 'morally evil'. It has nothing to do with the intrinsic values of good and evil in the universe itself, if such values even exist.

In my opinion, break apart your argument and examine it one piece at a time, because right now there are too many holes to poke at. You do not give enough, if any, evidence to make even an educated induction.
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excalion wrote:



There are way too many assumptions in your argument. Asking for us to accept the truth of moral realism sets a scale in which to measure your own argument. If we were to accept, we would have already entered your domain, one that was constructed for the sole purpose of proving some point. Yet what good reason do we have to believe such an exclusive scale exists? None. In this argument, that is the essential driving point, by giving you such grounds, we have not only given you a premise, but the conclusion to the argument itself.
The beauty is that monotheists who hold to objective morality existing can not question my assumption, since they themselves make it. So while this is actually a good point the people who I would like to respond can not use it against the argument. I already knew this, and so noted that I was making assumptions. This argument is using religious concepts (i.e. objective morality ) to defeat the logic of such religions.



Also, we have no reason to believe that 'good'(absolute) is 'morally good'. Morality is a construct of human beings to classify things that effect themselves in the world.
Morality is the application of ethics.



The pleasurable things become 'morally good' and the less pleasurable things become 'morally evil'. It has nothing to do with the intrinsic values of good and evil in the universe itself, if such values even exist.

In my opinion, break apart your argument and examine it one piece at a time, because right now there are too many holes to poke at. You do not give enough, if any, evidence to make even an educated induction.

The hole in the argument exists, but as an argument against someone who believes in a higher morality (such as a Christian) it is logically valid.
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