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the free will debate!
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39 / M / Closing in
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Posted 6/1/08
phillia: but the revelations are to a degree specific. What if, for instance, noone was in Jerusalem the day the angels were to die? This is not possible according to many revelations. So obvipously, this must be impossible. In other words, the people could not choose to leave Jerusalem on that day. That is not a choice mankind is given. And according to the revelations, the end is pretty definite. Obviously, there are choices we can not make.
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25 / M / Somewhere.... per...
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Posted 6/2/08
It our action that decide the future......
the "so-called"god ... know that future that you set for yourself.... thats all
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23 / F / hueco mundo
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Posted 6/2/08 , edited 6/2/08

dmitsuki wrote:




chibi-pengin-love wrote

so, god created humans with free will but if god knows everything including what happens in the future how can we have free will if the future has already been decided?



Decided? Yea, decided by us, that statement makes no sense because we have the freewill to choose whatever we want, and were going to choose something, were as in US, not God, God just knows what were going to choose, not make us choose it, its like seeing into the future, you see whats going to happen, but you didn't make it happen.


ah but if all of the choices have already been forseen, then thats pretty much the same as not being able to fully make choices as thay have already been decided
Posted 6/2/08 , edited 6/2/08

chibi-pengin-love wrote:


dmitsuki wrote:




chibi-pengin-love wrote

so, god created humans with free will but if god knows everything including what happens in the future how can we have free will if the future has already been decided?



Decided? Yea, decided by us, that statement makes no sense because we have the freewill to choose whatever we want, and were going to choose something, were as in US, not God, God just knows what were going to choose, not make us choose it, its like seeing into the future, you see whats going to happen, but you didn't make it happen.


ah but if all of the choices have already been forseen, then thats pretty much the same as not being able to fully make choices as thay have already been decided


your missing the piont, who decided what was going to happen? all seeing in the future would be, is seeing all the choice's YOU have made, nobody made you make those choice's, you are giving choice a and choice b, you have the full ability to choose either, but you choose a, nobody made you, and even if i knew you were going to choose it, you had all the god given power (excuse the expression) to choose b, but YOU choose a, not god, not the devil, not the future seeing guy, and even though they may of known you would of choose a, that had nothing to do with the fact that if you wanted to you could of picked b, so let me put it this way, your future is written, because YOU wrote it
Posted 6/2/08
If everything that must happen, will happen , maybe we are that which has to exist for eventually something else to take our place.

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Posted 6/2/08
dmit: eh? If there is a god, wouldn't it be forcing us to make choices? Believe, worship and follow the rules or burn forever. That would not be our choice. One does not choose to be damned. As long as we do not know god, we do not make the choice, we abstain. Let's say that if I enter place x at time y, z will happen. Now, there is nothing telling me to go to x. I do not go to x. I did not even know that x existed. It is not logical to say I made the choice of going to x, I was just completely unaware. Are we making choices even when it comes to the unknown? There is almost anb infinite number of unknowns and unknown possibilities, it would be weird to say we are making the choice of not doing accordingly. Instead, accordinmg tor eligion, we are being blamed for not doing something we have unknown or no reason to do. Even if you are a christian for instance, you can be sanctioned by deitys of other religions, that woudl happen to be true. You are punsihed for being ignorant about matters you have no evidence of. You can not know a religion to be true, just believe in it. And therefore we are not given the full ability to choose. When people want me to make a choice or a choice is needed, I usually have a certain degree of real evidence, or at least can analytically think of possible results basing myself in known reality. If a killer suddenly appeared in my apartment and killed me because I didn't sing yesterday, of which I had no knowledge I should do, then that would usually not be a valid reason in court. It woudl not be said to be a choice I had made. And as long as we do not know the future, we can only try to direct ourselves towards the one we want, we can not really determine it. For instance we may die sooner than the plans contained.
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Posted 10/20/08 , edited 10/20/08

jestorebo wrote:

The infinity choices thing doesn't work if the revelations are true. If god can clearly see exactly who and what will happen, then there can not be infinite choices. Like the angels (Enok and Elia) that are to be killed before judgement day. If it is true, then there can not exist the possibility of noone killing them. Or else, it is false. And if 55000 are to fight on Armageddon, then god must clearly see that these people will be there, allowing for all the lineage, births, the will power et cetera that will in the end make up these 55000. For instance, their ancestors could not have died in the concentration camps. The kings people are to follow on judgement day, the 70 shephers the righteous will follow, et cetera. Either you can not have a revelation of the future that is definitely true, or infinite choices don't exist.




i like your reasoning...and i wonder why nobody ever noticed your posts...(sorry if i quoted you even though you made this post a looong time ago , but i just would like to know more about what you think regarding this topic)

the revelations was part of the bible, right? and the things written in the bible have not yet gained any objective certainty (but nonetheless, people believe in them)...if that were the case, the infinity-choices thesis still has a possibility of being true. actually, i think the infinity-choices thesis and the revelations both have a possibility of being true. nothing can disprove or prove either one because, technically speaking, everything can be doubted (except perhaps existence, but that's irrelevant). well...feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.....

you're stating here mere possibilities. "ifs". but what's your own view? if you were a pragmatist, can you somehow synthesize the two theses?

just curious...i was really awed by your logical posts...


Posted 10/20/08
If you believe in god then you don't have free will, because you will always be restricted from doing things, and you will feel the need to do certain things that a un-believer wouldn't do like praying.
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Posted 3/21/10
Hmmm..... The multiple destinies theory is a pretty good explanation.

We are well into the territory of speculation by now, but just for the fun of it I'll give my opinion. Hopefully I won't confuse myself too much! LOL

I just want to clarify a few points that keep popping up. To begin we have to start with certain Bible based assumptions about God like omniscience and omnipotence. As the creator, God knows man "backwards and forwards." He gave man the free will to choose what he will do, where he will go, etc. However, ultimately He knows what man will do based on his nature. The book of Revelations in the Bible is kind of like a convergence of destinies -- since God is all-knowing (omniscient), he knows that the collective outcome of every choice made throughout history is a particular series of events. Now, knowing what's going to happen based on a pattern of events isn't the same as writing history. Although God is omnipotent (all-powerful) and could have written history, to keep from over-riding the free will He gave man He reigned in that "facet" of his omnipotence. However, this reigning in of omnipotence does not affect his omniscience -- hence, the book of Revelations. Because man does have free will the events of Revelations could begin tomorrow or not for another millenium depending on the choices of the billions of individuals on earth now.

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27 / M / Los Angeles, Cali...
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Posted 3/26/10
What you might think of as your mind right now is at the lowest level nothing but atoms. These atoms link together to make molecules, and the molecules make proteins and then neurons. These neurons send back and forth chemical and electrical signals, making your brain. At what point do we suddenly declare that we have free will? Does the atom have free will, or the molecules or the proteins? I don't think atoms are capable of choosing destinies. I think they like to bond with the closest atom.

These atoms have all combined in the same exact ways determined by their relative positions during the big bang, and will go along a pre-determined path. There are no alternative futures because there is no such thing as free will, because there is no such thing as a mind, because your mind is a part of your brain, which is just a collection of atoms, and atoms go along a pre-determined path determined by their relative positions during the big bang.
Posted 3/26/10

MEMPHADON wrote:

What you might think of as your mind right now is at the lowest level nothing but atoms. These atoms link together to make molecules, and the molecules make proteins and then neurons. These neurons send back and forth chemical and electrical signals, making your brain. At what point do we suddenly declare that we have free will? Does the atom have free will, or the molecules or the proteins? I don't think atoms are capable of choosing destinies. I think they like to bond with the closest atom.

These atoms have all combined in the same exact ways determined by their relative positions during the big bang, and will go along a pre-determined path. There are no alternative futures because there is no such thing as free will, because there is no such thing as a mind, because your mind is a part of your brain, which is just a collection of atoms, and atoms go along a pre-determined path determined by their relative positions during the big bang.


And the predetermined path is expansion. Our minds get bigger.
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26 / M / Brisbane, Australia
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Posted 3/27/10

firelfy wrote:

The future is not decided. We make our own future.


We'll if god exists, he made you, and what ever future you make was his choice BAHAHAHAHA
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26 / M / Brisbane, Australia
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Posted 3/27/10 , edited 3/27/10
There is only one future, if it didn't happen, then it was never the future, so there can only be one outcome, it doesn't change.


If we choose our destiny and our actions
it doesn't matter because god chose how you would be, your personality, your brain, your thoughts
What ever DNA he gives you, will effect your future
so you have no free will




If you don't believe in god, which i don't

All life is a chain chemical reaction, triggered by the energy of the sun
The rising of tall skyscrapers is an effect of the sun's light


To change an outcome of a test, aka the future
you need to change a variable, the only variables are controlled by the previous variables
and those were controlled by the variables set before them
this all leads to the creation of matter, either from the bigbang or god, which ever you believe in has predetermined your future







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Posted 3/28/10
I do not believe that some omgwtf?! magical barbie-material Gawd Almighteh has already decide our future.
For me, we all make decisions and actions – to shape out future.
Everything that will happen to me tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, yada is not the result of Gawd Almighteh's ultimate barbie-ish power.
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43 / M / Ossining, NY
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Posted 3/30/10
Wow a lot of people took the opportunity to toss the existence of God under the bus even though clearly that's not what the discussion was supposed to be about, and on the other side a lot of people made completely circular arguments.

Lets try some logic. Presupposing the existence of an omnipotent god, does not presuppose that you do not have free will. I can keep my dog on a leash and out of trouble, but I can choose to let him loose knowing he'll dig up the neighbor's yard while having the chance to run explore and sniff other dogs. An omnipotent god can choose to exercise his own free will, and allow people to do as they will, even though he knows what will happen.

On a related point (I want to say it was William James who came up with this but I'm sure that's wrong), You might as well believe in free will, since if you don't have it believing you do won't change anything, but if you do have free will and believe you don't you'll never make a decision.
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