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Post Reply The Art of Weaponry
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Posted 7/26/08

brotherhoodofthewolf wrote:




a greater style can never always win


well in a battle style dosnt really count what counts is if the person knows how to truly use that style to its potential if that makes sense.


That makes sense and is correct. Doesn't matter how effective an art/style is, if the person does not fully understand it's use they will not be able to utilize it's effectiveness, right? I definitely agree with that.

To respond to both the quoted person and Reinin; I will elaborate on the subject by quoting myself from what I wrote in "What IS Martial Arts?"


Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:
Experience is a catalyst that makes the formula work.

The forumula: Experience = Time + Effort.

So I would say that experience very much is important in a fight. For example I bring up the concept of Mushin.
Mushin, a principle which symbolized the ultimate understanding of martial arts and was deemed "enlightenment" pertaining to martial arts. All warriors sought it.
What is it? Well it is a strange concept both easy and hard to understand.
The basis is easy to explain but understanding is something that cannot be related through words.
Mushin means "Empty Mind" which means that in a fight, you do not think as when you think you get distracted and your thoughts trap you. It is very true as there is absolutely no time to think in a fight. So how does one accomplish this? I will relate it to the belt systems and their distinctive purpose regarding mushin and techniques.

During the Kyu [preliminary/non belted] ranks, you learn the basics and then techniques through repitition [Kata, Poomse, etc.] When you attain Shodan, "Black belt" the first Dan rank, you start the real training. Most people think this is the goal, but it is indeed the first belt, not the last. During Shodan you learn to apply those techniques and pratice it without thinking. Eventually you can move purely and fluidly without thinking. This is the purest and greatest method of fighting as it is completely natural.
You see, during learning forms [Like kata] through repitition you dedicate the learning not to the brain but to muscle memory. Your body remembers it. Much like riding a bike, you don't think you just do.
The end result is Mushin. When you know the techniques and can apply them in the correct applications, you have attained mushin.
After 5 years of Jujutsu training I had attained this understanding. It is something you must practice until you grasp a depth of understanding in. This comes quicker and slower than others. But once you understand it, it is like a great epiphany that dawns on you. It's an experience like none other. Then you know it.
It requires great time and effort into an art.


Ah but time and effort are wasted unless spent upon an effective art as some are not effective in real combat. [TKD, Mainstream GongFu, XMA crap, etc]

There's a whole new equation!

Though as I always say, the effectiveness of an art itself is only 50% of it's effectiveness in a fight. The other 50% is 25% the instructor's mettle and 25% the effort the trainee puts in to learning that art.

So there. You train in a combat art under a very much qualified instructor then all is needed is time and effort.

Now in the art there are two types of training. Forms and Sparring.

Forms are the best way to learn a technique as it is a system that has been used since Martial Arts began with it's routes traced back to a young India.

Sparring shows how to apply such techniques and teaches one the vital knowledge of combating resistance in an opponent. It may not be to the extent of a real fight, but it is most definitely suffecient enough.

Now many people debate on which is better. Some say forms are useless and others say the opposite.
It is infact both that must be practiced to become a truly proficient martial artist and to hold your own in a fight.

Sure some people who have never learned martial arts may be stronger or faster than you, but the one thing martial arts does is destroy the need for strength and speed to be used in a fight. I am a pretty big guy. I may look slim, but I am 240 lbs and 6'1 and have worked hard labor in factories for half my teenage life, I may not be a body builder but I am toned and I am very much stronger than the average sized muscle-less person. I never use the full extent of my strength in a fight. I never need to. Sure my punches have a bit more PSI, but what matters is not the force of my punch but the precision of it. Where I strike, when I strike, and how I strike.

Why you fight has much to do with it as well..
Willpower has a strange effect on people. It can do strange things with the brain. Willpower to survive is more powerful than willpower to hurt or to win a fight. It can even on occaision trigger the release of neurochemicals such as norepinephrine and epinephrine which can change the outcome of a fight by themselves.

I live in Kansas City. It's reputation as a vile and dangerous city are widely known. It has statistically more violent crime that New York and Jersey put together. Gangs, muggings, robberies, all of these are commonplace. I have been mugged several times and have repelled the attackers. I have been in plenty of fights over my years. Armed and Unarmed opponents alike. When I was young I was bullied because of a rare condition I have called Panhypopituitarism which meant my hypothalamus does not adequately produce harmones. The end result: I was tiny. I was frail, short, and weak. This forced me to become tough. I was tortured, quite literally, by sadistic little fucks who thought it was funny since I was an easy target. I learned how to defend myself at the age of 6 and have never stopped learning. I took injections for it from the age of 5 to the age of 18 and now I am fine. I am now 24 years old, bigger and badder than any of those fucks and whenever they see me they always try and hide. I once went to a video store where one worked and he looked up at me and his eyes got huge. He started stuttering apologies. I told him that that was a long time ago and that just as I am a different person now I so expect him to be. He nodded, checked my video out, and as I was walking out the door he asked me if I wanted to hang out sometime. I said sure and he said him and some buddies were going out to Kellys, a well known pub, and he asked if he could buy me a couple drinks and catch up. It ended up being a fun night and I made a friend out of the experience. This is why I fight and this is why I am strong.


So, if you have experience that stems from time and effort spent into the right art taught by the right teacher and have trained in the right methods, then it seems experience does make all the difference. A little will couldn't hurt either.


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Posted 7/29/08
The ancient fight of the long weapons, a spear vs. a staff, two of my favorite weapons, Im curious to here opinions on this matter, Who you think would win, why that kind of thing.
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Posted 8/3/08

carlrules097 wrote:

The ancient fight of the long weapons, a spear vs. a staff, two of my favorite weapons, Im curious to here opinions on this matter, Who you think would win, why that kind of thing.


well...firstly what are the main differences between the two? Most people will think that a spear is just a staff with a sharpened piece at the end. Of course when I say most people, I really mean me. Are there different fighting techniques for either weapon? Something other than the sharp piece on the spear to tip (no pun intended) my decision?
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Posted 8/3/08

Macedonian wrote:


carlrules097 wrote:

The ancient fight of the long weapons, a spear vs. a staff, two of my favorite weapons, Im curious to here opinions on this matter, Who you think would win, why that kind of thing.


well...firstly what are the main differences between the two? Most people will think that a spear is just a staff with a sharpened piece at the end. Of course when I say most people, I really mean me. Are there different fighting techniques for either weapon? Something other than the sharp piece on the spear to tip (no pun intended) my decision?


there is difference in the fighting styles, In kung fu the staff, though straight and rigid, its fighting style is based on the circular motion of the weapon, while a spear is based more on the thrust and slash with the tip, aiming for tendons and major organs. The red tassel on the end serves two purposes, one the bright red can be distracting to an opponent and hide where the point is coming from, and two it helps stop the blood, if the person stabs his/her opponent, from running down the shaft of the spear and making it slippery
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Posted 8/3/08

carlrules097 wrote:


Macedonian wrote:


carlrules097 wrote:

The ancient fight of the long weapons, a spear vs. a staff, two of my favorite weapons, Im curious to here opinions on this matter, Who you think would win, why that kind of thing.


well...firstly what are the main differences between the two? Most people will think that a spear is just a staff with a sharpened piece at the end. Of course when I say most people, I really mean me. Are there different fighting techniques for either weapon? Something other than the sharp piece on the spear to tip (no pun intended) my decision?


there is difference in the fighting styles, In kung fu the staff, though straight and rigid, its fighting style is based on the circular motion of the weapon, while a spear is based more on the thrust and slash with the tip, aiming for tendons and major organs. The red tassel on the end serves two purposes, one the bright red can be distracting to an opponent and hide where the point is coming from, and two it helps stop the blood, if the person stabs his/her opponent, from running down the shaft of the spear and making it slippery


I concur and verify that this is true.

In JWA, Bojutsu implies the use of the full width of the shaft [predominantly both ends and the middle] where as the spear is predominantly struck with the spearhead in case of a thrust and 4 inches under the bottom of the spearhead in case of a parry.

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Posted 8/3/08 , edited 8/3/08

carlrules097 wrote:


Macedonian wrote:


carlrules097 wrote:

The ancient fight of the long weapons, a spear vs. a staff, two of my favorite weapons, Im curious to here opinions on this matter, Who you think would win, why that kind of thing.


well...firstly what are the main differences between the two? Most people will think that a spear is just a staff with a sharpened piece at the end. Of course when I say most people, I really mean me. Are there different fighting techniques for either weapon? Something other than the sharp piece on the spear to tip (no pun intended) my decision?


there is difference in the fighting styles, In kung fu the staff, though straight and rigid, its fighting style is based on the circular motion of the weapon, while a spear is based more on the thrust and slash with the tip, aiming for tendons and major organs. The red tassel on the end serves two purposes, one the bright red can be distracting to an opponent and hide where the point is coming from, and two it helps stop the blood, if the person stabs his/her opponent, from running down the shaft of the spear and making it slippery


So the staff attacks would cover the entire 360 degrees by 360 degrees with the full surface area of the shaft being utilized while a spear attack would consist of 1 degree jabs then a slash if there is contact wit the haet. That seems pretty even but the spear still seem more lethal. If its just for defensive purposes and you didn't want to seriously injure the other person the staff would take my choice. If i did want to injure the person, then the spear. Still- I don't know quite how efficient either technique really is. If the staff wielding person made contact 6 times before the spear-man could cut then my decision would be far more difficult.
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Posted 8/3/08

Macedonian wrote:


carlrules097 wrote:


Macedonian wrote:


carlrules097 wrote:

The ancient fight of the long weapons, a spear vs. a staff, two of my favorite weapons, Im curious to here opinions on this matter, Who you think would win, why that kind of thing.


well...firstly what are the main differences between the two? Most people will think that a spear is just a staff with a sharpened piece at the end. Of course when I say most people, I really mean me. Are there different fighting techniques for either weapon? Something other than the sharp piece on the spear to tip (no pun intended) my decision?


there is difference in the fighting styles, In kung fu the staff, though straight and rigid, its fighting style is based on the circular motion of the weapon, while a spear is based more on the thrust and slash with the tip, aiming for tendons and major organs. The red tassel on the end serves two purposes, one the bright red can be distracting to an opponent and hide where the point is coming from, and two it helps stop the blood, if the person stabs his/her opponent, from running down the shaft of the spear and making it slippery


So the staff attacks would cover the entire 360 degrees by 360 degrees with the full surface area of the shaft being utilized while a spear attack would consist of 1 degree jabs then a slash if there is contact wit the haet. That seems pretty even but the spear still seem more lethal. If its just for defensive purposes and you didn't want to seriously injure the other person the staff would take my choice. If i did want to injure the person, then the spear. Still- I don't know quite how efficient either technique really is. If the staff wielding person made contact 6 times before the spear-man could cut then my decision would be far more difficult.


Well lets go with that circumstance then, I'm really curious if u cant tell , The one wielding the staff has the advantage of speed, but the one with the spear has the power. the one with the staff could hit the the spearman with 2 or 3 shots before the they could get one, but if they could get just that one shot in it could be all over for the staff wielder.

Who do you think has the advantage/slash come out the victor in this situation?
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Posted 8/3/08

carlrules097 wrote:


Macedonian wrote:


carlrules097 wrote:


Macedonian wrote:


carlrules097 wrote:

The ancient fight of the long weapons, a spear vs. a staff, two of my favorite weapons, Im curious to here opinions on this matter, Who you think would win, why that kind of thing.


well...firstly what are the main differences between the two? Most people will think that a spear is just a staff with a sharpened piece at the end. Of course when I say most people, I really mean me. Are there different fighting techniques for either weapon? Something other than the sharp piece on the spear to tip (no pun intended) my decision?


there is difference in the fighting styles, In kung fu the staff, though straight and rigid, its fighting style is based on the circular motion of the weapon, while a spear is based more on the thrust and slash with the tip, aiming for tendons and major organs. The red tassel on the end serves two purposes, one the bright red can be distracting to an opponent and hide where the point is coming from, and two it helps stop the blood, if the person stabs his/her opponent, from running down the shaft of the spear and making it slippery


So the staff attacks would cover the entire 360 degrees by 360 degrees with the full surface area of the shaft being utilized while a spear attack would consist of 1 degree jabs then a slash if there is contact wit the haet. That seems pretty even but the spear still seem more lethal. If its just for defensive purposes and you didn't want to seriously injure the other person the staff would take my choice. If i did want to injure the person, then the spear. Still- I don't know quite how efficient either technique really is. If the staff wielding person made contact 6 times before the spear-man could cut then my decision would be far more difficult.


Well lets go with that circumstance then, I'm really curious if u cant tell , The one wielding the staff has the advantage of speed, but the one with the spear has the power. the one with the staff could hit the the spearman with 2 or 3 shots before the they could get one, but if they could get just that one shot in it could be all over for the staff wielder.

Who do you think has the advantage/slash come out the victor in this situation?


I really don't think that I'm qualified to give an answer to be taken serious for this question. I can only give an opinion.

well it doesn't come down to speed or power. It comes down to the wielders dexterity in their art. If I do understand correctly- the entire staff is used as a weapon and that being the case- there is a lot more surface area for the user to hit with. The spear-man can only attack with that one sharp point. The staff user should be able to get an extra blow or two over the course of the fight in my opinion, but that being said- it would still be fairly difficult. The spear-man would try his hardest to keep the staff user at far range because he can only hit with that one part of his weapon. If the staff user were ever to be closer than the blade of the spear in relation to the spear-man- he'd have an advantage. this also works in vice versa. Thats why the skill is important. The spear user should be able to keep his opponent far. In this situation- the staff user should be able to get in fairly close. The staff user would also have an easier time parrying and defending than the spear-man which gives him another advantage.

Using a staff would probably be more physically taxing than using a spear. There is a lot more motion with the staff so its likely that he'd tire out first if the fight lasted that long. However- fights usually don't. That being said- hurting wares you out. If the staff user hit the spear-man 3 times before the spear-man got a cut than he might be just as tired. Now that I think about it in depth...it seems really even... I still can't say anything other than it depends on the skill of the wielder... Is this considered a really good match up, or tough question to the rest of the world or is it just me?
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Posted 8/3/08


It is a rather hard question and that's why I asked it. The thing with the spear is that it uses the spear tip primarily, it is not unheard of for the blunt end of the spear to be used in kung fu. And a staff is not necessarily more taxing because the spearman has to try and keep the tip moving as diverion is a major part of the spear fighting style, with help from the tassel like i said earlier. But I'm really glad someone is giving their input on the situation
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Posted 8/3/08
Ok carl, A staff user usually only uses half of their weapon, hands gripping the center of the shaft. The spearman has range, though he usually only uses the head of the spear, the speed of the thrust and angling makes the task of getting close bad enough. Now, in kobudo the staff (bo) users goal is to strike the weak points of the body such as collar bones,pressure points,joints,and tendons. When using a spear the goal is more along the lines of tendons, arteries, the muscle tissue closest to the bone, and easy access organs. These weapons are similar and so is the style of fighting useing them. Most would go with the user of the spear for its range which agree with, but it really depends on the user themselves.
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Posted 8/4/08
It doesn't really come down to speed or power.

The spear has range and enhanced lethality.
The staff has the versatility of movement.
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Posted 8/9/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:

It doesn't really come down to speed or power.

The spear has range and enhanced lethality.
The staff has the versatility of movement.


...so what is your opinion on the matter?
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Posted 8/9/08

Macedonian wrote:


Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:

It doesn't really come down to speed or power.

The spear has range and enhanced lethality.
The staff has the versatility of movement.


...so what is your opinion on the matter?

Aha well it depends on the use.

In a battlefield with armored opponents, surely a spear would be the most prime of weapons.

In a fight along the countryside with some ruffians or bandits or otherpersons unarmored, the staff would be prime as it is both unassuming, versatile, and lethal.

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Posted 8/11/08
sometimes the human body can be considered a weapon, when i'm writting this i think especially about those who practice Capoeira (one of the most spectacular and elegant styles of fight). this style comes from Brazil. some specialists consider it a genial mixture between martial arts, let's say "street" fight and dance. that was the only way the slaves on the plantations could find freedom and also the only way they could oppose their "masters"/suppresors. the dance was a way of concealing the real meaning of their "play". they used to gather in circle and two of them were performing inside the circle, on music. the fluid, elegant and fascinating movements bring back memories on the ancient tribal rites that's why some say capoeira is a reminiscence of the old sacred Indian dances, anyway there are a lot of theories regarding also the denomination "capoeira", but i think the correct one is that capoeira comes from the Spanish notion (hope i'm not wrong!) for a castrated cock - and why is that? because the way the fighter gather resembles to cock fights they follow the same patterns like - people gathered in circle and 2 fighters in the middle (just like in the street cock fights!) but the absolute thing is the dance can become a style of fight and this is really grandiose. in fact this style of fight reminds me of those Japanese style of fight that use letters for diffrent fight movements, sometimes between Japanese calligraphy and martial arts exist strong conections..........and this is also something amazing and beautiful ... and i think that's all
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Posted 8/11/08

marjan007 wrote:

sometimes the human body can be considered a weapon, when i'm writting this i think especially about those who practice Capoeira (one of the most spectacular and elegant styles of fight). this style comes from Brazil. some specialists consider it a genial mixture between martial arts, let's say "street" fight and dance. that was the only way the slaves on the plantations could find freedom and also the only way they could oppose their "masters"/suppresors. the dance was a way of concealing the real meaning of their "play". they used to gather in circle and two of them were performing inside the circle, on music. the fluid, elegant and fascinating movements bring back memories on the ancient tribal rites that's why some say capoeira is a reminiscence of the old sacred Indian dances, anyway there are a lot of theories regarding also the denomination "capoeira", but i think the correct one is that capoeira comes from the Spanish notion (hope i'm not wrong!) for a castrated cock - and why is that? because the way the fighter gather resembles to cock fights they follow the same patterns like - people gathered in circle and 2 fighters in the middle (just like in the street cock fights!) but the absolute thing is the dance can become a style of fight and this is really grandiose. in fact this style of fight reminds me of those Japanese style of fight that use letters for diffrent fight movements, sometimes between Japanese calligraphy and martial arts exist strong conections..........and this is also something amazing and beautiful ... and i think that's all


That's an interesting idea; The body as a weapon. It's almost a paradox.
The body can be used as a weapon but it itself is not a weapon as a weapon is defined as a tool designed to inflict harm or death upon a living being. Though as it can be used as one of the most [if not the most] effective weapons known to man without being a weapon, it has definitely earned it's spot here..

Capoeria is indeed a sight to behold. It's effectiveness in combat is questionable, but like I always say, any art can be effective in combat depending on the circumstances, the wielder, the opponent, the opponent's style, and the environment.
I'ts very beautiful to watch, it's questionable the greatest fitness source in all the martial arts, and it's unpredictable.

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