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Who created The universe?!
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Posted 6/13/08

digs wrote:

Then how did the universe come to be? It didn't create itself, nothing can come from nothingness. Even if it could, why would it? There is no will within nothingness to create, It didn't "just happen." God created the universe, which is fact. You can't argue (logically) that God didn't create the universe. A creation calls for a creator.


I agree that you can't really argue that he didn't, since no one was around to witness the universe's creation, but how can you argue that he did? Assuming he exists of course.
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Posted 6/13/08 , edited 6/13/08

digs wrote:

Then how did the universe come to be? It didn't create itself, nothing can come from nothingness. Even if it could, why would it? There is no will within nothingness to create, It didn't "just happen." God created the universe, which is fact. You can't argue (logically) that God didn't create the universe. A creation calls for a creator.


No problem at all. It is or should be obvious we have two ways to break the chain of everything having a cause for it's own existence. We must admit that of course everything can not have a cause, because at some point something existed which was not created. The only other explanation is that everything just kind of popped into existence, which does not really make sense, since we know energy can not be created or destroyed. So the two theories are:

1. The universe in some form has always existed

2. God or some other super being or beings have always existed and created the universe

There is not evidence of what the universe was like before the Big Bang. So no evidence....what to do? This is when we turn to the principle known as Occam's razor , which can be used to decide between two theories in such a situation. In simplest form it means that we should go with the theory that removes needless complexity. If we take the theories above we can express them as equations.
U= Universe G=God R=reality
1. U=R
2. U+G=R

1 explains the evidence well enough because there is no evidence that god exists, therefore one is a possible answer to our problem. This makes G a needless complexity which we can get rid of. Occams razor then tells us that because this is so it is more likely that 1 is true and the universe has always existed, because if it is more likely the universe has always existed, and that no god is there, we can logically assume it is he break in the chain of infinite regression. God is an unneeded postulation, who only complicates our question about what reality is and what part of reality has always existed.
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Posted 6/13/08
Not really, what is the universe without God? God is an essential part. With out it, you state that universe=reality. That does not explain how the universe came to be, it is just a reflexive that the universe is reality. Another thing, is God created the universe, it isn't God + universe = reality. It is more like two separate equations. God = reality, and reality = universe. God is real, and the universe is part of that reality.
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Posted 6/13/08

digs wrote:

Not really, what is the universe without God? God is an essential part.
Prove this premise.



With out it, you state that universe=reality. That does not explain how the universe came to be,
I said the universe has always existed, and thus it did not come to be.



it is just a reflexive that the universe is reality. Another thing, is God created the universe, it isn't God + universe = reality. It is more like two separate equations. God = reality, and reality = universe.
That makes no sense. Reality is all that exists, so god is part of reality.



God is real, and the universe is part of that reality.


Prove god is required for the universe to exist.
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Posted 6/13/08
Ok, I will prove it. The universe without God is non existent. God is essential because His Will is what runs the laws of physics, and the laws of nature and the cosmos.

How can you prove that the universe has always existed? The universe has no will, no mind, nothing. The universe is just an expanse that holds reality and contains all matter that is in existence. The universe holds no mind, it cannot do as it pleases, it cannot create. The universe is a creation of God.

Define "reality." Reality is what we experience, what we can observe, what we can prove. However, reality is subject to physical laws and the laws of the universe. Reality has no will or mind, reality is a creation of God. God is above reality, He dwells in it, yet is beyond it. God has no limits.

God is required for the universe to exist, because the universe could not have created itself, it has no power, will, or mind. Saying that the universe just happened by chance cannot be proven. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. In the beginning there was nothing. Matter cannot create itself, none the less why would it? What chose for matter to create itself? Why did it do that? (assuming that matter was created from nothing by nothing) There was no motive.
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Posted 6/13/08

digs wrote:

Ok, I will prove it. The universe without God is non existent. God is essential because His Will is what runs the laws of physics, and the laws of nature and the cosmos.
You did not prove that. You just asserted it, which is quite different.




How can you prove that the universe has always existed? The universe has no will, no mind, nothing. The universe is just an expanse that holds reality and contains all matter that is in existence. The universe holds no mind, it cannot do as it pleases, it cannot create. The universe is a creation of God.
How does that follow? Just because the universe has no mind does not mean it is a creation of god.







Define "reality." Reality is what we experience, what we can observe, what we can prove
No, reality can go beyond what we know of. Reality is everything that exists.



However, reality is subject to physical laws and the laws of the universe. Reality has no will or mind, reality is a creation of God. God is above reality, He dwells in it, yet is beyond it. God has no limits.
This makes no sense. If god exists in reality, then he is part of reality.




God is required for the universe to exist, because the universe could not have created itself, it has no power, will, or mind. Saying that the universe just happened by chance cannot be proven.
Good thing my view is it always existed.





Matter cannot be created or destroyed.
Energy not matter.




In the beginning there was nothing. Matter cannot create itself, none the less why would it? What chose for matter to create itself? Why did it do that? (assuming that matter was created from nothing by nothing) There was no motive.

I do not think you have understood me. The big bang created the present universe, but it is likely something existed before this which caused the big bang.
Posted 6/13/08

digs wrote:
Not really, what is the universe without God?

What is God without something to create him then?

If God didn't need someone to create him, then why does the universe need someone to create it? Why stop arbitrarily at God as the thing that doesn't need a creator?
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Posted 6/13/08 , edited 6/13/08

shibole wrote:


digs wrote:
Not really, what is the universe without God?

What is God without something to create him then?

If God didn't need someone to create him, then why does the universe need someone to create it? Why stop arbitrarily at God as the thing that doesn't need a creator?


Maybe god was made of self-combusted Ionic matter lol.Exactly who said it was a being who created the universe it could be something totally spacious with no concept of life or thought.God is merely a way so that people can have an appraisal of hope during the bad times,instead of forth giving and solving the problem with arithmetism.Essentially God is just a word that instates happiness or a prelude of sanctify belonging.(Everyone wants answers to beginning or ending even if its not fluid or logistical).
Posted 6/13/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


God is required for the universe to exist, because the universe could not have created itself, it has no power, will, or mind. Saying that the universe just happened by chance cannot be proven.
Good thing my view is it always existed.

Absolutely nothing about a "first cause" can be proven.

The only position that makes any sense to me to say that it is "without discernible beginning." We don't know if it's always existed, or if there was some "first cause" or not, and honestly who cares? It exists now, and how/why doesn't really matter as far as improving peoples' lives is concerned.
Posted 6/13/08
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digs 
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Posted 6/13/08

shibole wrote:


digs wrote:
Not really, what is the universe without God?

What is God without something to create him then?

If God didn't need someone to create him, then why does the universe need someone to create it? Why stop arbitrarily at God as the thing that doesn't need a creator?


God is not bound to the laws of physics though. God never had a beginning because He doesn't need a beginning. God is beyond human logic, and we can't bind Him to the laws of physics; after all, He did make them. The Universe needs a creator, because the universe is non living, has no mind or will, subject to the laws of physics, is temporary, and has limits. The universe could not have created itself.
Posted 6/13/08 , edited 6/13/08

digs wrote:
God is not bound to the laws of physics though. God never had a beginning because He doesn't need a beginning. God is beyond human logic, and we can't bind Him to the laws of physics; after all, He did make them. The Universe needs a creator, because the universe is non living, has no mind or will, subject to the laws of physics, is temporary, and has limits. The universe could not have created itself.

This appears to be based on lots of assumptions rather than any sort of empirical evidence.

How do you actually know that the universe is non-living? If you were a cell in your body, you might conclude that the body was non-living as well, if you could be said to conclude anything as a cell, since your experience of it would be exceedingly simplistic and limited.

Honestly I suspect that the universe itself is, in actuality, beyond concepts like "beginning." We only insist on thinking in terms of "beginning" and "creation" because we're unable to think in any other manner, similar to how a cell can't conceive of itself being part of a body because it can't think much less have such a concept of what it exists within. God seems to simply by the extension of the social concept that if we have a village chief, well there must be someone above the chief, etc., combined with the idea that humans make things, therefore there must be someone greater than humans who made the stuff that humans make thinks from, etc. Again, thinking in the primary terms in which humans think, and attempting to extrapolate that to some ultimate point beyond which we can no longer imagine anything else.

An individual cell in a body similarly might imagine that there's a "great omnipotent cell" that created the body and is controlling it. Not only that, but the cell's idea of "body" (all of existence) might be only the very tiny surroundings in which it is situated and not the real whole body.
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Posted 6/13/08
Ah.. Personally, I think this question is beyond man's capacity of knowing with absolute certainty.
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Posted 6/13/08 , edited 6/13/08
chuck norris said to god "BITCH MAKE A UNIVERS FOR ME TO RULE" THEN GOD AGREED. AFRaid to get his ass wooped by chuck..god made the univers acroding to chuck's plan and with the help of xenu.and that is how the univers was made.
(if you quote this you are a morron)
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Posted 6/13/08 , edited 6/13/08
Meeehh.. Pft. I don't know.
And I seriously think that it is beyond the extent of human knowledge to know who or what created the universe. The creation of the universe is one of those things that can have hundreds of theories but no definite answer.

I mean those who believe in a god, well it's obvious that GOD created the universe for them.
But those who don't believe in a god, they'll come up with theories such as the particles forming, or hydrogen and helium, nuclear fusion/fission bla bla explosions bla bla theory bla bla.

The question then is, how can those particles which "seemingly" formed the universe come to exist?
Or, how can there be a god? Where did a god come from?

If we manage to come up with a plausible answer to one question pertaining to creation, then another question will present itself, then another, and then another. And so on and so on and soooo oooon. -____-

This is one thing that we humans should not dwell on because it will only give us severe headaches or never ending debates with one another.
I personally do not care how the universe was created. The fact that it exists, I think that is enough.

COSMIC JOKE, tis all I can say.
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