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Proof about gays
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Posted 10/17/08

Real_ZERO wrote:

First of all, the sin of Lot's people was sodomy, that what stated in Quran:

[26:161]Behold, their brother Lot said to them: "Will ye not fear God? ......
[26:165]"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,
[26:166]And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives? Nay, you are a people exceeding limits.


Approach rarely has a sexual connotation you know...


Real_ZERO wrote:

[26:166]And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives? Nay, you are a people exceeding limits.


Point.



Real_ZERO wrote:

[11:78]And his people came rushing towards him, and since aforetime they used to commit crimes (sodomy, etc.),


Ah I'd assumed that you'd added the (sodomy, etc) because I couldn't imagine someone adding (sodomy, etc) in a holy book. They're usually a little more conscious of the flow of the text particularly because it would usually be read aloud (is that also true of the Qur'an? I must admit to being a little ignorant about Islam...) and those brackets breaks it up too much...



Real_ZERO wrote:

The angels are angels ( I didn't witness their creation ) but at that time they came as men.
If we start with the begining of context we will notice that angels came in form of people( and as men):

[11:69]There came Our messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said, "Peace!" He answered, "Peace!" and hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf.
[11:70]But when he saw their hands went not towards the (meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not: We have been sent against the people of Lot."



the story from another chapter
[51:25]When they entered upon him, they said: Peace. Peace, said he, a strange people.
[51:26]Then he turned quickly to his household, brought out a fatted calf,
[51:27]And placed it before them.. he said, "Will ye not eat?"

....
also here from chapter Stoneland
[15:61]And when the messengers came unto the family of Lot,
[15:62]He said: "Ye appear to be uncommon folk."

....

See, neither Abraham (peace be upon him) nor Lot (peace be upon him) recognized them as angels at first place ...but as [ uncommon folk/ strange people/entertain them with food like any ordinary guests]


I never said that they weren't person shaped just that they might not have been necessarily male. Since they would have no practical reason for having sexual characteristics (beyond the obvious )

...Who are the "people of Lot"? I'd assumed them to be the people related to this one ...what was he? Priest? Prophet? Man on the Clapham Omnibus? But you seem to be talking about a lot (no pun intended) of people.



Real_ZERO wrote:

SO when angels came in the form of people, they would be handsome( If they wouldn't actually a gay see any guy is handsome 101)


You know; gay people are not just indiscriminate sex machines...

Oh and don't think that I've forgotten about the implausibility and the unsustainability of Five cities made up of nothing but gay men.
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Posted 10/17/08 , edited 10/17/08
The fact of the matter is that we shouldn't show belligerence towards the gay community.
Christian or not, we should show them unceasing love rather than looking down on their actions. Who among us are blameless? Who among us haven't sin? We have no right, and showing hatred (I know a word too strong) is not going to help the cause. If people are so belligerent towards homosexuality, then people should advocate against divorces too; yet, a share of Baptists are among the highest in the divorce rate, which shows too much inconsistency. Additionally, divorce is something more wrong than being gay, and again, something that is more common.

As the Lord commanded, among the first commandments, "Love thy neighbor," not "Gay bash your neighbors." Then after showing them love, selfless acts, then you can steer them the right path.
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Posted 10/17/08 , edited 10/18/08

Tyrfing wrote:



Real_ZERO wrote:

[11:78]And his people came rushing towards him, and since aforetime they used to commit crimes (sodomy, etc.),


Ah I'd assumed that you'd added the (sodomy, etc) because I couldn't imagine someone adding (sodomy, etc) in a holy book. They're usually a little more conscious of the flow of the text particularly because it would usually be read aloud (is that also true of the Qur'an? I must admit to being a little ignorant about Islam...) and those brackets breaks it up too much...

What I post aren't the original but the translation hence it contains etc . its original is in Arabic, which's the literal word of God and is the only what be read aloud .
If you can understand Arabic then I will quote directly from the origin.


Tyrfing wrote:

Real_ZERO wrote:

The angels are angels ( I didn't witness their creation ) but at that time they came as men.
If we start with the begining of context we will notice that angels came in form of people( and as men):

[11:69]There came Our messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said, "Peace!" He answered, "Peace!" and hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf.
[11:70]But when he saw their hands went not towards the (meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not: We have been sent against the people of Lot."



the story from another chapter
[51:25]When they entered upon him, they said: Peace. Peace, said he, a strange people.
[51:26]Then he turned quickly to his household, brought out a fatted calf,
[51:27]And placed it before them.. he said, "Will ye not eat?"

....
also here from chapter Stoneland
[15:61]And when the messengers came unto the family of Lot,
[15:62]He said: "Ye appear to be uncommon folk."

....

See, neither Abraham (peace be upon him) nor Lot (peace be upon him) recognized them as angels at first place ...but as [ uncommon folk/ strange people/entertain them with food like any ordinary guests]


I never said that they weren't person shaped just that they might not have been necessarily male. Since they would have no practical reason for having sexual characteristics (beyond the obvious )

Obvious, but for commoners, they were look like men(their apperance at least : P ).


Tyrfing wrote:
...Who are the "people of Lot"? I'd assumed them to be the people related to this one ...what was he? Priest? Prophet? Man on the Clapham Omnibus? But you seem to be talking about a lot (no pun intended) of people.


The Lot's people are inhabitants of the city.
He was a Prophet.


Tyrfing wrote:



I was talking about the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the three other cities that God nuked that day. I don't think they were all in Lot's extended family were they?

And I'm not saying that the sheer numbers are unbelievable (since there are 6,700,000,000 people in the world and studies suggest that 10% of the population is gay or bisexual) just that you can't have a city full of nothing but gay men since in a few dozen years it will become a city of no men.




-Documentally

God called it as a village
[11:74-75](74) وَلُوطًا آتَيْنَاهُ حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَنَجَّيْنَاهُ مِنَ الْقَرْيَةِ الَّتِي كَانَتْ تَعْمَلُ الْخَبَائِثَ ۗ إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا قَوْمَ سَوْءٍ فَاسِقِينَ
الْقَرْيَةِ Literally means the village
Translation:
[11:74]And Lot, We gave him judgment/rule and knowledge, and We saved/rescued him from the village which was doing the bad ,truly they were a people given to Evil, a rebellious people.


In another chapter, God called it as a city
[15-51: 73](67) وَجَاءَ أَهْلُ الْمَدِينَةِ يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ
الْمَدِينَةِ Literally means the City
Translation:
[15:67] The inhabitants of the City came in (mad) joy (at news of the young men).
So, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah maybe like a village in population size and that what made me said that the population was not as large as it in any medium city


-Scientifically, if we run back in time, the population decreases.
-Religiously, if God's will to make all men on earth to act as gays, then it well be His will.


Tyrfing wrote:

Oh and don't think that I've forgotten about the implausibility and the unsustainability of Five cities made up of nothing but gay men. :P


I skipped coz I don't know .

1- Yes I don't know. Actually, I know nothing about Lot's story until I read what God told in Quran.
2- I wasn't actually there, you weren't too. So what God told me, what is important, going deep in details is waste of time.
3- The most important thing is the Moral of their Story.

Posted 10/17/08

Kanone wrote:

People get angry at homosexuals for being proud of it, not for being one.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

This says you are not entirely right about that.

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Posted 10/18/08
How is the proof? Where i the scientific proof that it isnt? Just because some book says its wrong doesnt mean it is. If i wrote a book saying pigs fly does that mean its true?
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Posted 10/18/08

Real_ZERO wrote:

What I post aren't the original but the translation hence it contains etc . its original is in Arabic, which's the literal word of God and is the only what be read aloud .
If you can understand Arabic then I will quote directly from the origin.


Yeah sure I can... if by Arabic you mean French. In other words "no"

I was just wondering if it was your interpretation that specified their crimes.

Also I don't remember any French.


Real_ZERO wrote:


-Documentally

God called it as a village
[11:74-75](74) وَلُوطًا آتَيْنَاهُ حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَنَجَّيْنَاهُ مِنَ الْقَرْيَةِ الَّتِي كَانَتْ تَعْمَلُ الْخَبَائِثَ ۗ إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا قَوْمَ سَوْءٍ فَاسِقِينَ
الْقَرْيَةِ Literally means the village
Translation:
[11:74]And Lot, We gave him judgment/rule and knowledge, and We saved/rescued him from the village which was doing the bad ,truly they were a people given to Evil, a rebellious people.


Wow. Arabic looks complicated... all the letters are so small... and those fiddly bits... must be hard to read.


Real_ZERO wrote:

-Scientifically, if we run back in time, the population decreases.
-Religiously, if God's will to make all men on earth to act as gays, then it well be His will.


...wait...

Why would God make them all gay and then punish them for it? It sounds like a bit of an unfair handicap if you ask me.

...Also are you saying that you think that homosexuality is an inherent characteristic?


Bakatron wrote:


Kanone wrote:

People get angry at homosexuals for being proud of it, not for being one.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

This says you are not entirely right about that.



Oh that guy. His reasoning seems to go that "If God hates you then you will die" "If you are dead then God must hate you" That's a dangerous position for an eighty year old man to maintain. Iwonder what will happen to his "religion" when they discover that he isn't immortal.

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Posted 10/18/08 , edited 10/18/08

Tyrfing wrote:

...wait...

Why would God make them all gay and then punish them for it? It sounds like a bit of an unfair handicap if you ask me.

...Also are you saying that you think that homosexuality is an inherent characteristic?



I expected this comment , If you are a christian, you do understand exactly what God's will means.

I'm not sure if I understood ur question, but mostly if you meant Are people born gay? No : P .

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People aren't born gay, it's a choice. Homosexuality is not natural. I personally know someone who used to be gay, and then when they became born again, they chose not to be gay and allowed their sexual fantasies for the same sex to dissipate. The human mind is trainable, and this includes sexual preference. There are a lot of guys who go from being straight to gay, and a lot that go from gay to straight. Homosexuality is a choice, and it is a sin. Personally though, I do not bash gay people. I am friendly to them and I'm not freaked out. I am not homophobic, and I view them as ordinary people. However, I will not compromise my morals and say that homosexuality is alright or not sinful.
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Posted 10/18/08 , edited 10/18/08

digs wrote:

People aren't born gay, it's a choice. Homosexuality is not natural. I personally know someone who used to be gay, and then when they became born again, they chose not to be gay and allowed their sexual fantasies for the same sex to dissipate. The human mind is trainable, and this includes sexual preference. There are a lot of guys who go from being straight to gay, and a lot that go from gay to straight. Homosexuality is a choice, and it is a sin. Personally though, I do not bash gay people. I am friendly to them and I'm not freaked out. I am not homophobic, and I view them as ordinary people. However, I will not compromise my morals and say that homosexuality is alright or not sinful.


Yeah digs because every choice made is made consciously mhm no such thing as instinct, or biological factors or the unconscious. We are all perfectly aware of every choice we make, always. Like that time brains were studied when people moved a glass whenever they wanted and it turned out the unconscious part of the brain had already triggered the fingers to move half a second before the conscious part of the individual 'made' the choice to move the glass at that moment, oh wait this means not every choice we make is made 100% consciously. darn it, stupid facts getting in the way of your opinions.

We don't know yet, period.
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Posted 10/18/08

digs wrote:

People aren't born gay, it's a choice. Homosexuality is not natural. I personally know someone who used to be gay, and then when they became born again, they chose not to be gay and allowed their sexual fantasies for the same sex to dissipate. The human mind is trainable, and this includes sexual preference. There are a lot of guys who go from being straight to gay, and a lot that go from gay to straight. Homosexuality is a choice, and it is a sin. Personally though, I do not bash gay people. I am friendly to them and I'm not freaked out. I am not homophobic, and I view them as ordinary people. However, I will not compromise my morals and say that homosexuality is alright or not sinful.


So homosecuality is sinful... because you said it was?
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Posted 10/18/08

mauz15 wrote:


digs wrote:

People aren't born gay, it's a choice. Homosexuality is not natural. I personally know someone who used to be gay, and then when they became born again, they chose not to be gay and allowed their sexual fantasies for the same sex to dissipate. The human mind is trainable, and this includes sexual preference. There are a lot of guys who go from being straight to gay, and a lot that go from gay to straight. Homosexuality is a choice, and it is a sin. Personally though, I do not bash gay people. I am friendly to them and I'm not freaked out. I am not homophobic, and I view them as ordinary people. However, I will not compromise my morals and say that homosexuality is alright or not sinful.


Yeah digs because every choice made is made consciously mhm no such thing as instinct, or biological factors or the unconscious. We are all perfectly aware of every choice we make, always. Like that time brains were studied when people moved a glass whenever they wanted and it turned out the unconscious part of the brain had already triggered the fingers to move half a second before the conscious part of the individual 'made' the choice to move the glass at that moment, oh wait this means not every choice we make is made 100% consciously. darn it, stupid facts getting in the way of your opinions.

We don't know yet, period.


That is a motor skill... not a sexual preference. Science may have not proven that homosexuality is acquired subconsciously, but I have proof from people that I know, that you can train your mind to a different sexual preference. And from counselors I know, most homosexuals chose that lifestyle due to pain in their life (abusive fathers, heartache from girls, depression, desire to be accepted, etc...) facts are, is that homosexuality is not natural among the animal world (I know there are like 5 cases in which an animal got confused, but the percentage of gay humans to gay animals doesn't even come close to matching. Homosexuality is un-natural)

Science may not know, but I personally know that homosexuality is trainable, and untrainable.

^ I don't say it's a sin, God does.
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Posted 10/18/08 , edited 10/18/08
No person who knows about instincts and the brain, and genetics, etc can say we are only dealing with a voluntary choice here, that's ridiculous.
the population of human vs the population of animals is significantly different. There is a correlation between population size and homosexuality.
haha from counselors? well no kidding, what are counselors for? for people who are troubled, do you think the non troubled homosexuals go to a counselor? do you see non troubled people go to counseling? why would a person who does not need counseling go to counseling? of course most homosexuals who attend counseling are troubled, or why would they go to a freaking counselor?

I give up digs, there is no amount of critical thinking that can get through you.
I hail to your logic.


i forgot another thing

"(I know there are like 5 cases in which an animal got confused,"

more like 450 different vertebrate species that have been documented to show homosexual behavior. But of course, quantitative information is not part of your opinion.
Posted 10/18/08 , edited 10/18/08

digs wrote:
^ I don't say it's a sin, God does.


and when was the last time god said such a thing? hm?
or, more like, who are you to say that you know what god says? ; )


so, you are basing this on, ONE gay, YOU know? kk, now that's a decent way of backing up your theory.

the fact that you consider homosexuality as sinful, is already quite offending.
that's like me saying, damn it, my god told me that the christians are sinful people. people, blame god, it's he who calls you sinful, not me, i am just the little blind sheep who blindly repeats his words. tsk tsk

it makes no sense for a god to say that he is all-loving, but at the same time making such strong differenciation between the folks, such as calling homosexuals ~ sinful. i wonder where the love disappeared to. god created us the way we are, so why make such a big drama if someone doesn't develop the way god wanted him to?

when it comes to the creation theory, god created us the way we are, thus he created the homosexual desire in us, too.

i say, i'll be your god for 5 seconds, and i wish you to lay your hands off of this bible, and start to see the world with your own eyes, your own head, and thoughts. you can't go running through this world and call everything sinful that doesn't meet the standards of this world, or your dogmas.
you can't throw us human people in a can with the title "sinful", just because we don't meet your standards. we are individual beings, we may be all from the same species, but we all have our own world, our own inner structure, and there is no second person who'd be absolutely the same as you, nor me, so you can't define us ALL by a little book called the bible, which consists of approximately 1500 year old words.

we are who we are, there is nothing sinful about us, because that's what we are, we are humans, we are not perfect, but we certainly AREN'T sinful. if someone here is to be called sinful, then it's our creator.



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Posted 10/18/08

ShroomInferno wrote:


digs wrote:
^ I don't say it's a sin, God does.


and when was the last time god said such a thing? hm?
or, more like, who are you to say that you know what god says? ; )


so, you are basing this on, ONE gay, YOU know? kk, now that's a decent way of backing up your theory.

the fact that you consider homosexuality as sinful, is already quite offending.
that's like me saying, damn it, my god told me that the christians are sinful people. people, blame god, it's he who calls you sinful, not me, i am just the little blind sheep who blindly repeats his words. tsk tsk

it makes no sense for a god to say that he is all-loving, but at the same time making such strong differenciation between the folks, such as calling homosexuals ~ sinful. i wonder where the love disappeared to. god created us the way we are, so why make such a big drama if someone doesn't develop the way god wanted him to?

when it comes to the creation theory, god created us the way we are, thus he created the homosexual desire in us, too.

i say, i'll be your god for 5 seconds, and i wish you to lay your hands off of this bible, and start to see the world with your own eyes, your own head, and thoughts. you can't go running through this world and call everything sinful that doesn't meet the standards of this world, or your dogmas.
you can't throw us human people in a can with the title "sinful", just because we don't meet your standards. we are individual beings, we may be all from the same species, but we all have our own world, our own inner structure, and there is no second person who'd be absolutely the same as you, nor me, so you can't define us ALL by a little book called the bible, which consists of approximately 1500 year old words.

we are who we are, there is nothing sinful about us, because that's what we are, we are humans, we are not perfect, but we certainly AREN'T sinful. if someone here is to be called sinful, then it's our creator.





God says these things through the Bible. I am not the one that says them, God says them in His Word.

Actually, I am not basing it on only one ex gay person, but on many. My family has been in the ministry my whole life, I have personally seen and heard of many people who changed from being gay, and sadly I know of many people who went to homosexuality. I base it on the things I see, have heard and confirmed, and on the fact that homosexuality is NOT natural in nature among any animals.

I'm sorry that my beliefs offend you, in fact when I was agnostic they used to offend me. I don't believe in hating homosexuals, in fact I love them just as much as anyone else. I think it's a sin not to treat them with love. The Bible calls us to love our neighbor as ourselves, and to if at all possible, live at peace with all men. Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it. I believe in following his example. I don't view homosexuals different then others (other then their sexual preference) I don't think homosexuality is right, but we all do wrong, and I don't believe that homosexuals always hit on the same sex constantly or are extremely rude (like how some in our culture portray them) Some call it being blind, but the truth is that it is called faith. I have faith in Jesus, and I have seen Him work. And even now He is working miraculously in my life.

God is all loving, but He also in His love gave us the gift of free will (as stated in my previous post) God made us as relational beings, and He gives us the choice to love and obey Him or not. Even before humanity had a sinful nature, we chose to sin. With our free will, we created sin. (as stated before in my previous post)

Actually, according to the Biblical creation story, God created us without a sinful nature, and He walked among us and had a relationship with His creation. In the Beginning according to Biblical Creation, God created Adam, and then He created Eve. God walked with them and talked with them, God provided them with the Garden of Eden, and appointed humanity to have dominion over the earth. In essence, life on earth was perfect, there was no death, no sin, and God and humanity possessed a perfect relationship. To have true love and a relationship, one must have free will. God did not create us as mindless puppets that have no mind of their own, He endowed us with free will, to make choices, and He desires us to choose Him. However, Adam and Eve with their free will, made a choice to sin by breaking the one thing God asked them not to do, which was to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve knew this, they were not mindless, and they rationalized in themselves by believing the lies of Satan. Satan told Adam and Eve that God didn't want them to eat of that tree because if they did, they would know good and evil just like God did. Satan made God look unjust and mean, Satan has been lying sense he sinned. Humanity used this lie to rationalize within itself, and then exercised its free will and freely chose to eat of the fruit, thus creating sin. God created us to love Him, but for true love to happen one must have a will that wants to love. Man chose poorly, and created sin amongst humanity. God did not create us with evil desires, He created us with the free will to choose them or to choose him. We chose sin, and now we are born with a sinful nature that desires sin from birth, yet even though we have become evil beings, God still Loves us as His creation, and He has even sacrificed Himself so that man and God may again have a relationship through repentance and forgiveness, our sins can be removed and we can have nothing imperfect between our relationship with God is we so choose it.

Actually, by your second to last paragraph, I did live that way for several years. I was a deist, and then became agnostic. I thought and rationalized with the lies of satan, and I believed that sinning was ok, and that is was ok because my life wasn't perfect by my standards (I believe the common lie, if God truly loves me, He will make my life easy and according to my standards) I lived in sin, I did whatever I wanted to, and I couldn't care less what others did. This lead to destruction, depression, and a whole world of hurt that I didn't want to be in. Our sinful nature craves evil, the more we give it, the hungrier it gets. I had relationships with people that never made me happy, I lived in sin and it never satisfied. My inner needs were never met, yet I thought they were being met through sin. I was always empty, and this was depressing. We can get a short happiness or satisfaction from sin, but soon later we only want more, and sin eventually leads to death and problems we don't want to be in. You are right in that we are all different, but the truth is that there is only One Truth. There are not multiple truths that are right for each person. This Truth is God's Word, and the Truth is God. All the rest is lies. I could choose to base my life and judge others on lies, but it is much better and not destructive to live according to Truth.

You are right, we are who we are. And who we are are sinful beings that crave evil. We are not inherently good, because we openly choose evil and have an evil sinful nature. In the beginning according to the Biblical Creation story, we were not created sinful, but with our God Given free will, we created sin, and endowed a sinful nature in ourselves.
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Posted 10/19/08

Bakatron wrote:


Kanone wrote:

People get angry at homosexuals for being proud of it, not for being one.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

This says you are not entirely right about that.



Tha guy relies on God way too much. ¦0
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