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Post Reply Pre-Destination
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Posted 6/20/08 , edited 6/20/08
As I am sure some of you know, I know one in particular who I find to be an expert on the subject, there are other denominations of our faith. One of which begot the notion of the chosen ones, the ones God has heaven planned for. And like my pattern God's word in Red responses would be in blue.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.


Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us[1] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
[1]Or before him in love, having predestined us


Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,


Now I am not going to try to explain the verses because they can be taken numerous ways. But I would like to point out what Pre-Destined would imply. Also if you could add anything I missed, it would be greatly appreciated. But in any effect, the idea of the predestined, is that only a select or the "elect" get into heaven. To know with out a shadow of a doubt that you are going to heaven. And that you have been chosen by God. I find this topic very interesting because of how intricate the answers become. I myself believe that God is all knowing, that He knows the future in particular in this case. So if that is true, does He not already know who will attain heaven and who will fall short. And also with that, do we percieve it as free-will when we believe we have the choice. Quite a conundrum, I wish to hear your thoughts.
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Posted 6/20/08

cryolyger wrote:

As I am sure some of you know, I know one in particular who I find to be an expert on the subject, there are other denominations of our faith. One of which begot the notion of the chosen ones, the ones God has heaven planned for. And like my pattern God's word in Red responses would be in blue.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.


Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us[1] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
[1]Or before him in love, having predestined us


Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,


Now I am not going to try to explain the verses because they can be taken numerous ways. But I would like to point out what Pre-Destined would imply. Also if you could add anything I missed, it would be greatly appreciated. But in any effect, the idea of the predestined, is that only a select or the "elect" get into heaven. To know with out a shadow of a doubt that you are going to heaven. And that you have been chosen by God. I find this topic very interesting because of how intricate the answers become. I myself believe that God is all knowing, that He knows the future in particular in this case. So if that is true, does He not already know who will attain heaven and who will fall short. And also with that, do we percieve it as free-will when we believe we have the choice. Quite a conundrum, I wish to hear your thoughts.


amen to that! God choses us before the creation of the world...christ's blood is sufficient to all but limited to few, the christians especially the elected continue in their faith and serve God no matter how many trials they had, this topic is quite intriguing and debatable to some denomination because most of them doesn't believe in election of Christ. NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ACT LIKE CHRISTIANS...r u reformed?
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Posted 6/20/08
Haha, "r u reformed" you might say that, and you would be right. lol, The idea of the elect is still fresh and I am still studying, but I believe in God's omni-benevolence as well as omniscient. The Christians that don't act like Christians, is it possible they are not Christians? In any regard I believe that knowing we are going to heaven is a benefit and not a negative notion.
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Posted 6/20/08
I believe that God desires everyone to be saved. God knows who will be saved, and He works out a plan and will for their life, but we are still supposed to evangelize. God wants all the people in creation to be saved.
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Posted 6/21/08
I like this verse because it works very well with this topic and it's one of my faves~

Matthew 22:14 For many are called but few are chosen.

It's such a small verse but it speaks wonders! So many people in this world get the chance to be saved and enter into God's kingdom but so little accept the invitation and run after God wholeheartedly. He chose us in our mother's wombs to be his holy priesthood and his chosen people. Lol I just mixed like 4 verses together but the words just came to me .
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Posted 6/21/08
I believe in predestination, that God already knows our plans for life. He takes us down a road, and then we come to a fork in the road. We have decide which one we'll continue down. God already knows our decision before we make it, though. He still gives us the option, or "free will", to choose the one we want. And we always have the choice to turn around and go back to take the other road. God already knows if we'll do that.
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Posted 6/21/08
WOW, i am taken off guard on how many know of this. It feels my heart with gladness that you guys not only know about it but you believe in it. (Thank you Rukia for that verse from Matthew) Seeing in how I am still in my infancy on the subject, I am glad for those who can assist me in spreading such a controversial topic, but such an important topic as well. I feel so blessed to be able to discuss this.

Acts ch.4 has something to say about predestination, but it would be a verse to dissect on your own. There is alot to take into consideration, and to take one verse would not show that chapter justice. So if you get time this week take a look at Ephiasians 1, Romans 8, Matt 22, and of course Acts ch.4.

I discovered this through my brother and my Christian brothers in the faith, during a bible study (Romans 8), we ended up speaking for the rest of night on the probability of pre-destination. And rather free-will exists or not. I believe that free-will is a perception of man, but you cannot attest in one fashion or another that Jesus is the Almighty and is omniscient, the alpha and the omega.
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Posted 6/21/08
hey cry i suggest that you look through the really old threads where magnus and someother nonchristians have posted. you might find them interesting since predestination was brought up more than a couple of times. ^_^
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Posted 6/21/08
I believe that God is all knowing, all present and all powerful. If he doesn't know who will be saved, then the last statement is a lie (not all knowling). As for predestination, he does mention predestination several times, as shown by cryolyger in the first post. which translation did you use? To be honest, I'm not sure about predestination. both sides can make pretty convincing arguments, but this I know: If we are predestined, it doesn't mean that we should just sit on our bottoms and play games, because it is our duty to preach the Gospel to all the people of the world:

Acts 1:7, 8

7 He replied, “The Father alone has the authority to set those dates and times, and they are not for you to know. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”


If we are not predestined, then keep preaching the word all the more.
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Posted 6/21/08
ESV, I find it to be the most accurate, I have ESV as my reference online, NASB as a study bible, an NIS for quick references, or my favorite, my NKJV, so to answer your question the ESV, but I reference alot of different ones

haha, ya win or lose, whether or not its true or not, should not discourage our mission. But, if it wasn't the case, the bible would be false, for it is foreshadowed throughout.
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Posted 6/21/08

AburaiRukia wrote:

hey cry i suggest that you look through the really old threads where magnus and someother nonchristians have posted. you might find them interesting since predestination was brought up more than a couple of times. ^_^


I'll do that, I didn't even check beforehand to see if there was a topic, since it usually separates believers. But thank you for the advice, who knows I might be able to learn a thing or 2 from them.
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Posted 6/22/08
Seeing that I just joined this thread, I think there are some points that I personally want to clarify and perhaps clarify some errors that is assumed as the official doctrine of Predestinaton--or as cryolyger punned it, "pre-destination[1]." There seems to be some apprehension that the doctrine of predestination falls under the category of foreknowledge. Though the doctrine is posited among theologians that foreknowledge is a subset of predestination, there are classifications that need to be delineated (outlined).

Predestination
Election
Foreknowledge
Damnation (I will further add and apprise my own personal notes as to why I believe damnation is a subset of predestination).

As with every doctrine dealing with the nature of God (what theologians call "Theology Proper"), we need to understand the nature of covenants. I'm Reformed, so I hold personally to Covenant Theology as it is presented in Calvin's Institutes, Meredith G. Kline's work on Mid-Eastern Treaties (see Dr. M. Horton), Greg L. Bahnsen's Lectures on Covenant Theology, Benjamin B. Warfield's Studies in Theology, etc. The amount of work, although tenuous to the subject at hand, definitely is plenary. I am going to site a lot of works, but I am going to leave them as footnotes so that it will not distract from the general purpose. And with that said, I want to begin with a quote from John Calvin, which I think best puts the doctrine of election in proper perspective:

There remains the other point, which approaches more nearly to faith; that, while we observe how God has appointed all things for our benefit and safety, and at the same time perceive his power and grace in ourselves, and the great benefits which he has conferred on us, we may thence excite ourselves to confide in him, to invoke him, to praise him. . . . Whenever we call God the Creator of heaven and earth, let us at the same time reflect, that the dispensation of all those things which he has made is in his own power, and that we are his children, whom he has received into his charge and custody. . .that, whatever we need or desire, our prayers may be directed to him, and that, from whatever quarter er receive any advantage, we may acknowledge it to be his benefit, and confess it with Thanksgiving. . .[2]

Calvin, in the proper sense of the word, puts the doctrine in proper distinction. He first defines God who is to be worshiped as the Creator, thus drawing the line in the sand between man and God. Dr. Francis Schaeffer, in similar parlance distinguished this point as the defining doctrine that helped spurn the Reformation of the 16th Century. Man had a place in the world, in that he was no longer autonomous, trying to find a place to live and function. God, in His Word, gave him a metaphysical, ethical, and epistemic worldview by which he can interpret the world through the lense of Scripture. Hence, Calvin writes that the first impression of Theology Proper is an awe and reverential obsequium to the God of the Bible--that is, Man ought to believe and worship every word that comes from God (Deut. 8:3).

Covenant Theology as Theology Proper
In general, Covenant Theology delineates three main covenants that we see throughout the Scriptures:

1. Covenant of Redemption
2. Covenant of Works
3. Covenant of Grace

I want to stress that there isn't a numerical order here because we see that all three elements of the covenant are seen through both Old and New Testaments. However, there is one digression that I think I should note. The Covenant of Redemption stands outside 2 and 3. This covenant does not have the elements explicitly that 2 and 3 procure, but it does carry elements that theologians qualify as a covenant. This covenant, unlike the other two, is between the Divine Trinity. So, it is at the outset of the debate that the doctrine of the Trinity be at the very center of Theology Proper, and, indeed, in the doctrine of predestination.

So what are the elements which we find in 2 and 3? Dr. O. Palmer Robertson, Biblical scholar of Westminster and Reformed Theological Seminaries, sets a discursive outline in his book The Christ of the Covenants in which he explains that a covenant is that by which God unites himself to a life and death bond with man. He writes, "The phrase, 'bond-in-blood' or bond of life and death expresses the ultimacy of the commitment between God and man in the covenant context. By initiating covenants, God never enters into a casual or informal relationship with man. Instead, the implications of his bond extend to the ultimate issues of life and death." Now if Christians today understood the ramifications of becoming a Christian, which is equal to be in covenant relationship with God, we would see a more severity in the honesty of their commitments to Christian worldview.

Conclusion
To end this pithy blurp, I want to emphasis that the Reformation understood that God only gave man that which was necessary for worship (firstly), and everything else (philosophy, theology, mathematics, etc.). One would even add his or her subtext to each academic discipline with the prefix philosophy of-, i.e., philosophy of theology, philosophy of. . .etc. But within the realm of academia, the workplace, or whatever man finds himself exerting his identity, he is constantly interpreting the world which God made. The question then becomes: How ought man interpret the world then? And which or what God (or god) are we talking about in the first place? This is why predestination was a focal doctrine of the Reformation. God intervened in history, has a set plan for man, and makes man an arbiter of "filling the earth" and "subduing it under the direct authority of God, because God has given man the bifocals of proper interpretation.

[1] I like this phrase for several reasons. The main reason is that professor Benjamin Warfield find that the wording for predestination had no specific derivative in the first century. One person could only speak of God's already working plan add the prefix "pre-" to the ongoings of an ordained will. As I will show later from Warfield, the Jewish community prior to the advent of Christ had a mindset of randomness established of a Divine character. That is, that the most random of actions were set to be already established in the book of history (Proverbs 16:33).
[2] John Calvin, ed. Hugh Thomson Kerr, Jr. A Compend of the Institutes of the Christian Religion, 28-29.
[3] O. Palmer Robertson, Christ of the Covenants, 7-8. In the beginning chapters he writes a complete definition of covenant theology and the flow of history through covenants (also known as Eschatology). I'm currently reading Dr. Horton's book called Covenant and Eschatology: The Divine Drama which deals with the same thing in different parlance and content. It's a tough read.
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Posted 6/22/08
*still in the process of reading, but I thought I would point out, that I see you as a speaker on pastor's perspective in the near future, you are quite knowledgeable on the subject, and I am glad I posted it so I could learn more about it.
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Posted 6/22/08
Pastor's perspective, however, carries autonomistic man as the center and contorts the Creator-creature distinction. I'd rather be a professor of Systematic Theology at a Reformed seminary.
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Posted 6/22/08
I merely was using pastor's perspective as a reference point, was trying to say I could see you doing this as your job, explaining and enlightening via radio or tv or pulpit.
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