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Evolution gone wrong?
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Posted 6/24/09

digs wrote:

Evolution never went right. Honestly, from an atheistic and secular worldview; life will never ever ever have meaning. We are to exist, die, and cease function and never return to it. Nothing matters with how you lived. But this isn't the truth. The Truth can be found in Jesus. I live for my Savior, my life has meaning, and I experience the true love that only God can give. It isn't a crutch, and it isn't some emotional well-being, it is the real deal. Don't judge it if you haven't experienced it for yourself (But experiencing it means to turning back)


Some of the most elated and enlightened people I have ever met was a group of irreligionist trancendentalistst in Missouri that i met while hiking outside of Shell knob a couple years ago. They didnt have a care or a god in the world. Life has plenty of meaning, even for me.
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Posted 6/24/09 , edited 6/24/09

openmindedatheist wrote:


digs wrote:

Evolution never went right. Honestly, from an atheistic and secular worldview; life will never ever ever have meaning. We are to exist, die, and cease function and never return to it. Nothing matters with how you lived. But this isn't the truth. The Truth can be found in Jesus. I live for my Savior, my life has meaning, and I experience the true love that only God can give. It isn't a crutch, and it isn't some emotional well-being, it is the real deal. Don't judge it if you haven't experienced it for yourself (But experiencing it means to turning back)


Some of the most elated and enlightened people I have ever met was a group of irreligionist trancendentalistst in Missouri that i met while hiking outside of Shell knob a couple years ago. They didnt have a care or a god in the world. Life has plenty of meaning, even for me.


When I was an atheist my life still had meaning to me. I had goals and things I wanted in life. Atheists can have a will to live and a self purpose, but ultimately I do believe there is a hollow place in each person's heart that only the Love of God can fill. The peace we all long for and the Love of the Creator. We don't acknowledge it, and most people fill that hole with anything they feel can fit it. Instead of living for personal goals and dreams, I live for the goals and dreams that God has placed in my life. And I can honestly say 100% I find more fulfillment in those then in making and following my own path.
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Posted 6/25/09
in all the posts about evolution almost 90% (don´t know where i got that number from, just seemed like a a nice number and i don´t want to do the math) speek of evolution as it is self aware, like it chose to do something. evolution can´t chose to do something. i know that i am simplifying things but... evolution just happens, it does not have a planed out way of doing things.
Posted 6/26/09 , edited 6/26/09
I completely understand.

I've actually undergone many changes since i realized how absolutely meaningless my life seemed.
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Posted 6/26/09
i honestly don't think evolution went wrong anywhere. its human nature to try to find the easiest road out of any situation. And suicide is the very easiest road. But true strength comes from someone trying to go against human nature itself, and to take that harder road knowing that things will get better with time. Thats my opinion.
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Posted 6/30/09
To be honest, I don't think emotions and intelligence have ANYTHING to do with one another. Happiness can be found in a simple form, such as a playful puppy, or in a more cerebrally complex form, such as a retired philosophy teacher who enjoys a good book anda glass of wine.

Humans have developed neurologically enough so that we can ask ourselves, "Who am I?" But that doesn't have to keep us from being HAPPY.

Strong emotions can cause a lot of physical stress on the body. That's basic. And of course, during the teenage tears, our emotions are all out of whak because our bodies are changing and our hormones are raging and we all experience RIDICULOUS mood swings. So that can cause even MORE stress. So...I think the stress you're experiencing within you "boring" life probably has more to do with THAT than necessarily with being too intelligent.

People sometimes spend their entire lives trying to find their place in the world. They wonder what they "should" be doing; what will make everyone happy. When in fact...that doesn't matter. What matters is that you do what makes YOU happy. Wasting your time trying to make everyone else happy will only backfire. Trust me, I know, I've been there.

I think the key to being happy is just takinga long hard look at yourself, and then deciding what it is that you truly love about life. What makes you get up in the morning? What is your inspiration to keep on living (besides a basic need-to-live-instinct)? We should all try to live a life where we can get up in the morning feeling excited about our day, and then go to bed at night knowing we've done something good for ourselves and the community. That might sound like hippie-speak, but, that's essentially all there is to it.

I think people often forget about the "simple things" in life. A warm afternoon, a favourite tree to climb, an old book you've read a hundred times, curling up by the fire with your cat in your lap. It's those things that we really look forward to, day to day. If you take the time to look back on your past, I guarantee you the things you'll remember the most are those little day-to-day things, the things that made your life happy and temporarily eased the stress. Personally, my past is largely composed of walks through the woods with my grandmother and the soccer games I played every noon hour in elementary school. Things I did quite often, that made me happy and relaxed. :)

I guess I went a little off-topic there...but in all honesty I don't think intelligence and happiness have anything to do with one another. Sometimes things that require our intelligence, such as homework or inventing something or whatever, can DISTRACT us from the things that make us happy, but they NEVER take it away. I just think people need to learn to differenciate between their thoughts and their emotions.
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Posted 7/1/09


Evolution went wrong the moment you began to wonder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4OLQB7ON9w Let Go.
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Posted 7/2/09

digs wrote:

Evolution never went right. Honestly, from an atheistic and secular worldview; life will never ever ever have meaning. We are to exist, die, and cease function and never return to it. Nothing matters with how you lived. But this isn't the truth. The Truth can be found in Jesus. I live for my Savior, my life has meaning, and I experience the true love that only God can give. It isn't a crutch, and it isn't some emotional well-being, it is the real deal. Don't judge it if you haven't experienced it for yourself (But experiencing it means to turning back)


Evolution does have it's dead ends but it does go right. Everything on the planet has evolved (that includes you) there's plenty of evidence in favour but religion continues to deny it due to some points that are hard to prove.

Unless you've tried atheism and secularism you can't really comment either can you? The atheists just don't believe what you believe so how can you say they lead lesser lives than you? That sounds like pride :/ (that's a cardinal sin, you know).

Atheists believe in people, they believe people will make the right decision and lead good lives by thier own morality, not that some being sits on high and commands us to do good etc. How you live is important it always is, you sell atheism like it condones all actions and makes life pointless. If that's true it would suggest atheists would be in deep depression and since most lead full happy lives that would make you wrong.

If your whole life has meaning only because of jesus i feel sorry for you, your life must be pretty empty. I always found the bible to just be telling you to lead a good life and to adhere to basic morales (i.e. don't kill, don't steal etc) not to live only for god. If however you live for yourself, do what you want to and still adhere to these morales then christianity and the god they believe in would smile upon you but everyones entitled to their own view.
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Posted 7/2/09
Evolution didn't help people grow better plants, studying genetics and breeding accordingly did that. They didn't evolve new plants, they just bred plants with the genetics that they wanted. It hasn't helped, in fact some may argue it contributed to the deaths of millions through Hitler pushing the evolutionary superior aryan race. It has also damaged the world by trying to explain away the existence for a creator. I'm not talking about evolution in the sense of change over time, I am talking about the biological theory that is pushed as truth.

And I beat down on evolution because it never goes unchallenged. Anyone who challenges it is branded "unscientific" or an "ignorant theist." It's very sad that the scientific community pushes the theory as fact and bickers about it within their group. I'm tired of scientific bias because of naturalistic "explanations." There is very little consensus in the evolutionary community, they just accept that evolution happened or we wouldn't be here. I don't mean to act angry or attack like a troll, but there is very little education on the holes and the facts that make the evolutionary model impossible. Its just hits me personally because the vast majority in the evolutionary community won't discuss things that are problematic to them, and they won't accept the facts. The attack the scientists instead of the science, it's time for evolution to be challenged and proven false in a respectful scientific way.

Evolution never goes unchallenged? clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. Firstly there is a constant debate between christianity and science as to evolutions worth and christianity has stalemated evolutionists with points that can't yet be proven or are difficult to prove. It's true that the holes in evolutionary theory are skipped at lower levels of biology however this is because the holes are not that easily explained that's why they are generally taught to people in university level education or higher. Most of the holes don't really point to it being impossible. please feel free to pm me and i'll debate it with you further.
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digs 
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Posted 7/2/09

Zol_Grimm wrote:


digs wrote:

Evolution never went right. Honestly, from an atheistic and secular worldview; life will never ever ever have meaning. We are to exist, die, and cease function and never return to it. Nothing matters with how you lived. But this isn't the truth. The Truth can be found in Jesus. I live for my Savior, my life has meaning, and I experience the true love that only God can give. It isn't a crutch, and it isn't some emotional well-being, it is the real deal. Don't judge it if you haven't experienced it for yourself (But experiencing it means to turning back)


Evolution does have it's dead ends but it does go right. Everything on the planet has evolved (that includes you) there's plenty of evidence in favour but religion continues to deny it due to some points that are hard to prove.

Unless you've tried atheism and secularism you can't really comment either can you? The atheists just don't believe what you believe so how can you say they lead lesser lives than you? That sounds like pride :/ (that's a cardinal sin, you know).

Atheists believe in people, they believe people will make the right decision and lead good lives by thier own morality, not that some being sits on high and commands us to do good etc. How you live is important it always is, you sell atheism like it condones all actions and makes life pointless. If that's true it would suggest atheists would be in deep depression and since most lead full happy lives that would make you wrong.

If your whole life has meaning only because of jesus i feel sorry for you, your life must be pretty empty. I always found the bible to just be telling you to lead a good life and to adhere to basic morales (i.e. don't kill, don't steal etc) not to live only for god. If however you live for yourself, do what you want to and still adhere to these morales then christianity and the god they believe in would smile upon you but everyones entitled to their own view.


We don't know if everything has evolved. Yes there is variation within a kind, but they don't form other species. The evolutionary theory has serious flaws that get brushed under the mat, or they speculate what must have happened in order that evolution be true. It seems to me as if they start with the assumption that "evolution is true" rather then finding the truth. I have seen scientists reason illogically and putting out imposibilities in order to fit the theory. One may bring up a serious problem with evolution, and the solve the problem by saying an improbable (or even impossible) scenario had to happen in order that things work out. Within the evolutionary scientific community there seems to be only one thing agreed upon, that evolution is fact. How things evolved, why they did, and when, these are all disputed and have reached no clear consensus within that community.

And actually, I have tried atheism and secularism. Before I devoted my life to God as a Christian I was an atheist. Actually I was an atheist, deist, agnostic, liberal secular humanist, and for a very small amount of time a pantheist. I don't say that atheists live "lesser" lives than me. Their lives are just as precious and valuable. However, without a proper understanding of the truth in Christ we live our lives for ourselves, and eternity will not be heaven. All men were created equal, some embrace faith, atheism, or even cult worship. Each man is equal, but not each life is being used to glorify God.

My life is actually very full with Jesus in the picture. I not only have personal goals set in my life, but these goals are now within the context of God's plan for me. My love with Christ isn't a form of clingy dependence by human standards. Why should we live for ourselves though? One of the main points of Christianity is submission to God and His will for our lives. He has plans to bless us, not destroy us. Those plans may be hard, rough, or "not fair," but ultimately they yield eternal blessing and a fulfilled life on earth. Greater joy is attained through giving and love, not through taking and chasing after what we may desire or crave at the moment. Sure it's fun, but it's hollow and ultimately leads to nothing but temporary destructive gratification. I say all this with utmost respect.
Posted 7/3/09

Nazareeni wrote:



Evolution went wrong the moment you began to wonder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4OLQB7ON9w Let Go.


Dear, you're playing with words, but thanks for the song.
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Posted 7/3/09 , edited 7/3/09

digs wrote:


Zol_Grimm wrote:


digs wrote:

Evolution never went right. Honestly, from an atheistic and secular worldview; life will never ever ever have meaning. We are to exist, die, and cease function and never return to it. Nothing matters with how you lived. But this isn't the truth. The Truth can be found in Jesus. I live for my Savior, my life has meaning, and I experience the true love that only God can give. It isn't a crutch, and it isn't some emotional well-being, it is the real deal. Don't judge it if you haven't experienced it for yourself (But experiencing it means to turning back)


Evolution does have it's dead ends but it does go right. Everything on the planet has evolved (that includes you) there's plenty of evidence in favour but religion continues to deny it due to some points that are hard to prove.

Unless you've tried atheism and secularism you can't really comment either can you? The atheists just don't believe what you believe so how can you say they lead lesser lives than you? That sounds like pride :/ (that's a cardinal sin, you know).

Atheists believe in people, they believe people will make the right decision and lead good lives by thier own morality, not that some being sits on high and commands us to do good etc. How you live is important it always is, you sell atheism like it condones all actions and makes life pointless. If that's true it would suggest atheists would be in deep depression and since most lead full happy lives that would make you wrong.

If your whole life has meaning only because of jesus i feel sorry for you, your life must be pretty empty. I always found the bible to just be telling you to lead a good life and to adhere to basic morales (i.e. don't kill, don't steal etc) not to live only for god. If however you live for yourself, do what you want to and still adhere to these morales then christianity and the god they believe in would smile upon you but everyones entitled to their own view.


We don't know if everything has evolved. Yes there is variation within a kind, but they don't form other species. The evolutionary theory has serious flaws that get brushed under the mat, or they speculate what must have happened in order that evolution be true. It seems to me as if they start with the assumption that "evolution is true" rather then finding the truth. I have seen scientists reason illogically and putting out imposibilities in order to fit the theory. One may bring up a serious problem with evolution, and the solve the problem by saying an improbable (or even impossible) scenario had to happen in order that things work out. Within the evolutionary scientific community there seems to be only one thing agreed upon, that evolution is fact. How things evolved, why they did, and when, these are all disputed and have reached no clear consensus within that community.

And actually, I have tried atheism and secularism. Before I devoted my life to God as a Christian I was an atheist. Actually I was an atheist, deist, agnostic, liberal secular humanist, and for a very small amount of time a pantheist. I don't say that atheists live "lesser" lives than me. Their lives are just as precious and valuable. However, without a proper understanding of the truth in Christ we live our lives for ourselves, and eternity will not be heaven. All men were created equal, some embrace faith, atheism, or even cult worship. Each man is equal, but not each life is being used to glorify God.

My life is actually very full with Jesus in the picture. I not only have personal goals set in my life, but these goals are now within the context of God's plan for me. My love with Christ isn't a form of clingy dependence by human standards. Why should we live for ourselves though? One of the main points of Christianity is submission to God and His will for our lives. He has plans to bless us, not destroy us. Those plans may be hard, rough, or "not fair," but ultimately they yield eternal blessing and a fulfilled life on earth. Greater joy is attained through giving and love, not through taking and chasing after what we may desire or crave at the moment. Sure it's fun, but it's hollow and ultimately leads to nothing but temporary destructive gratification. I say all this with utmost respect.



I am going to explain this as simple as I can. Because You did not read any of my more larger post on this topic.

You believe that a spieces changes over time, but you do not think they can change spieces.

So I make a example for you.

'Move to groups of the same group or race of humans on to two different Islands.' One Island is worm and with few tree's, the other cold with a lot of tree cover.
As you admit they will change. the one on the worm Island Skin will get darker, and there hight and size will change with there eating habits.
On the colder Island they get paler they also get more hairy to aid in fighting off the cold. (as seen with both the Norsemen and the Africans.) or Over time they keep changing soon the DNA has changed enough where both Spieces can not breed with eachother anymore.. this is what we call a new Spieces wen they change enough that the DNA is to different to create children with eachother anymore.
As long as those two groups are separated there DNA will change more and more and as time goes by there DNA will mutate to the point they become two spieces instead of one. (just like the Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens.)
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Posted 7/3/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


digs wrote:


Zol_Grimm wrote:


digs wrote:

Evolution never went right. Honestly, from an atheistic and secular worldview; life will never ever ever have meaning. We are to exist, die, and cease function and never return to it. Nothing matters with how you lived. But this isn't the truth. The Truth can be found in Jesus. I live for my Savior, my life has meaning, and I experience the true love that only God can give. It isn't a crutch, and it isn't some emotional well-being, it is the real deal. Don't judge it if you haven't experienced it for yourself (But experiencing it means to turning back)


Evolution does have it's dead ends but it does go right. Everything on the planet has evolved (that includes you) there's plenty of evidence in favour but religion continues to deny it due to some points that are hard to prove.

Unless you've tried atheism and secularism you can't really comment either can you? The atheists just don't believe what you believe so how can you say they lead lesser lives than you? That sounds like pride :/ (that's a cardinal sin, you know).

Atheists believe in people, they believe people will make the right decision and lead good lives by thier own morality, not that some being sits on high and commands us to do good etc. How you live is important it always is, you sell atheism like it condones all actions and makes life pointless. If that's true it would suggest atheists would be in deep depression and since most lead full happy lives that would make you wrong.

If your whole life has meaning only because of jesus i feel sorry for you, your life must be pretty empty. I always found the bible to just be telling you to lead a good life and to adhere to basic morales (i.e. don't kill, don't steal etc) not to live only for god. If however you live for yourself, do what you want to and still adhere to these morales then christianity and the god they believe in would smile upon you but everyones entitled to their own view.


We don't know if everything has evolved. Yes there is variation within a kind, but they don't form other species. The evolutionary theory has serious flaws that get brushed under the mat, or they speculate what must have happened in order that evolution be true. It seems to me as if they start with the assumption that "evolution is true" rather then finding the truth. I have seen scientists reason illogically and putting out imposibilities in order to fit the theory. One may bring up a serious problem with evolution, and the solve the problem by saying an improbable (or even impossible) scenario had to happen in order that things work out. Within the evolutionary scientific community there seems to be only one thing agreed upon, that evolution is fact. How things evolved, why they did, and when, these are all disputed and have reached no clear consensus within that community.

And actually, I have tried atheism and secularism. Before I devoted my life to God as a Christian I was an atheist. Actually I was an atheist, deist, agnostic, liberal secular humanist, and for a very small amount of time a pantheist. I don't say that atheists live "lesser" lives than me. Their lives are just as precious and valuable. However, without a proper understanding of the truth in Christ we live our lives for ourselves, and eternity will not be heaven. All men were created equal, some embrace faith, atheism, or even cult worship. Each man is equal, but not each life is being used to glorify God.

My life is actually very full with Jesus in the picture. I not only have personal goals set in my life, but these goals are now within the context of God's plan for me. My love with Christ isn't a form of clingy dependence by human standards. Why should we live for ourselves though? One of the main points of Christianity is submission to God and His will for our lives. He has plans to bless us, not destroy us. Those plans may be hard, rough, or "not fair," but ultimately they yield eternal blessing and a fulfilled life on earth. Greater joy is attained through giving and love, not through taking and chasing after what we may desire or crave at the moment. Sure it's fun, but it's hollow and ultimately leads to nothing but temporary destructive gratification. I say all this with utmost respect.



I am going to explain this as simple as I can. Because You did not read any of my more larger post on this topic.

You believe that a spieces changes over time, but you do not think they can change spieces.

So I make a example for you.

'Move to groups of the same group or race of humans on to two different Islands.' One Island is worm and with few tree's, the other cold with a lot of tree cover.
As you admit they will change. the one on the worm Island Skin will get darker, and there hight and size will change with there eating habits.
On the colder Island they get paler they also get more hairy to aid in fighting off the cold. (as seen with both the Norsemen and the Africans.) or Over time they keep changing soon the DNA has changed enough where both Spieces can not breed with eachother anymore.. this is what we call a new Spieces wen they change enough that the DNA is to different to create children with eachother anymore.
As long as those two groups are separated there DNA will change more and more and as time goes by there DNA will mutate to the point they become two spieces instead of one. (just like the Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens.)


What I am talking about is variation within a kind. The passing on of more appropriate genetics because those with better genetics for that area are less likely to die and more likely to pass on their genes. The structure of DNA doesn't change, the genes don't change either. Variation within a kind, meaning whatever genes and traits already exist in that species, they will be passed on because those with better genes will be more likely to live and mate, versus weaker genes that are more likely to die and not reproduce. DNA and genetics aren't influenced by surroundings, but the surroundings influence the future generations of a species by killing off those not propperly suited for that environment.
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Posted 7/3/09 , edited 7/18/09




What I am talking about is variation within a kind. The passing on of more appropriate genetics because those with better genetics for that area are less likely to die and more likely to pass on their genes. The structure of DNA doesn't change, the genes don't change either. Variation within a kind, meaning whatever genes and traits already exist in that species, they will be passed on because those with better genes will be more likely to live and mate, versus weaker genes that are more likely to die and not reproduce. DNA and genetics aren't influenced by surroundings, but the surroundings influence the future generations of a species by killing off those not propperly suited for that environment.


As a biology student i have to tell you that you are wrong, DNA does change but it's true it's not directly related to environmental factors the easiest way to explain is Darwins finches while on his trip aboard the H.M.S. beagle they stopped off on many islands and Darwin observed a very similar finch on almost all of the islands in this particular chain however the shape and size of beak, among other aspects, varied on each island as food availability and type changed per island this partially lead to his theory but what few people know is that Darwin was also a geologist of sorts and examined the cliffs and rock formations as well discovering that the islands and in fact most land has built up over time, now you see the problem with this is if thats true the bible is wrong because it basically states that everything on the planet is as it always was. However if you read my perception of time statement it could simply be people not reading between the lines in the bible.

Personally i don't see religions problem with Evolution, I have one question for you Digs just because the bible claims god made the earth in 7 days doesn't mean he made it in our perception of time, does it? If god exists and made that statement to whichever prophet how do we know it was in our perception of time and not god's? 7 days to god could be 700 million years in our perception, so theoretically evolution could be how he sculpted us if he did. See open thought instead of blind devotion can actually lead to some interesting theories.

"What I am talking about is variation within a kind. The passing on of more appropriate genetics because those with better genetics for that area are less likely to die and more likely to pass on their genes." One last thing that statement is in fact a half decent description of evolution, e.g. giraffes they didn't always have long necks, the belief is that a genetic abnormality occured in the species that lead to one or a few being born with long necks since they could obtain more food they became a desirable mate and the species evolved from there, breeding in long necks. As a devout christian you seem to have accepted evolution to a degree, you must understand it is natural selection because genes are altered by acciden during birth, growth etc and a desirable trait is formed leading to the trait being spread throughout the population through breeding which causes the evolution of the species. This is basically slow evolution although there is also the theory of explosive evolution.

I am dubious about whether you tried any of the views you claim to have, because you seem to have missed most of their basic principles and beliefs.

As to your points about scientists perhaps you are right but you must remember there are many scientists that know of evolution and very few that specialise in it, some may talk out of turn about what they know only a little about however evolution at the moment is a pretty sound theory sure it has holes but that's why scientist's research to figure out where the problems in the theory are and try to solve them or even improve the theory. However this is common misconception Evolution is not consider complete fact else it would not be entailed by the word theory (i urge you to check that word's definition in the dictionary) as to many scientists believing it to be fact is due to the overwhelming evidence displayed in many aspects of the theory, there are problems which the church gives biologists no end of trouble about but thats what science is about proving and disproving theories. The holes in the theory will be solved the reason scientist accept the theory as fact sometimes is because there may be problems here and there but the general idea is sound and backed up by evidence, even the last pope saw that.

See in my opinion your level of devotion to god suggests a co-dependence complex most likely brought on by a traumatic event or feeling of depression, loneliness and/or emptiness in life, but don't get me wrong i have seen religion help truly broken people in ways medicine and psychology perhaps can't, i just don't agree with praying on the weak of mind. For example christianities "aid" in africa and the rest of the third world. I am in no way saying you are actually one of these weak minded individuals just saying how it looks to me.

If you don't mind me asking what section of christianity do you belong to? You don't have to answer it's just it's hard to discuss without knowing exactly which part of christianity you are in as levels and variance of belief vary in different aspects.

If i missed anything or made a mistake do tell me XD
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Posted 7/3/09 , edited 7/18/09



Conclusion:
Simply put, evolution is the result of changes in genetic code. The genes encode the basic characteristics a life form will have, and there is no known mechanism that would prevent small changes (microevolution) from ultimately resulting in macroevolution. While genes can vary significantly between different life forms, the basic mechanisms of operation and change in all genes are the same. If you find a creationist arguing that microevolution can occur but macroevolution cannot, simply ask them what biological or logical barriers prevent the former from becoming the latter — and listen to the silence.


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