Linearity of Time and Its Effect on Alternate Universes
18829 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
32 / M / Tamriel
Offline
Posted 7/25/08 , edited 7/25/08
All right, everyone knows time is linear. I'm aware of this fact. But my question pertains to time travel and alternate universes. I don't know if I'm looking wrong, or if there's no info, but I've never been able to find anything about this.

All right, just to summarize before I get to the question, there's the 3 major theories of how time travel affects things: the "slipstream", the "causal" and the "bifurcated".
The bifurcated model seems to be the most common nowadays, thanks to being made mainstream by series such as Sliders. It states that at every key interaction every possible outcome COULD have been made, and thus the universe splits into multiple versions of itself (one version in which each possible outcome DID occur) all of which run parallel to each other. And since any cause could have an infinite number of effects, there are an infinite number of bifurcations from each key point. (Well, that is the logical extreme. It tends to be simplified to a finite number.)

My question deals with this theory of time travel. It obviously depends on the forward moving aspect of time. But what happens in a place where time stops? (Such as, theoretically, a black hole?) Do the universes all converge? Since time doesn't move, the interactions that lead to the splits all happened at the exact same moment, right?
And what if one were somehow able to be returned to a place where time flows at a normal speed. Would they be in their old universe? Or would this be a convenient way to travel between parallel universes?
I don't actually ask this to find out whether one could use a black hole to "slide". I'm actually using a modified version of this idea in a story I'm working on, and I'm trying to figure out what would happen if one could stop time for the whole universe for... well, I guess it would technically be forever, or no time at all. But the premise is, stop time for X time, do all the parallel worlds converge. And if so, when time restarts, could you piggyback onto a different time stream, and thus undo something you didn't want to have happened?
2944 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
29 / M / "The World"
Offline
Posted 7/25/08
Ooohh...Theoretical Physics! I like! Hmm...My take on the question is...

First af all...about the black holes. Stephen Hawking has theorized that Black Holes don't strictly suck everything in. They still emmit mass and energy (Hawking Radiation). It IS possible that Hawking Radiation COULD be residue from an alternate dimention where a black hole could connect to. The problem is that if you follow Hawking, black holes eventually evaporate and dissapear along with said worm hole.

Second...Parallel Universes themselves. Let's not assume that all parallel universes appeared at the same time. There could have been a time where there really WAS only one Universe a sort of "Originator". But an anomaly happened and somehow created other (parallel) universes, possibly even our own. If you think of Parallel Universes that way then crossing into another universe might not be so smart since that other universe might be on a completely different timeset.

Finally...Time Travel itself. If you argue to Time Travel by going to a different time stream then you have already defeated your own argument. If you leave THIS timeline to do or undo something in another timeline then you will be stuck in what is pretty much a parallel universe. And if you do that, you still won't accomplish what you set out to do for the original timeline you came from because whatever changes you made was on a different timeline and hence not disturbing timeflow. And if you follow my second point, time travel might just be travelling to another universe that is in a different stage of development. You still managed to go back in time...but not in the sense that you might think.

Well...That's my opinion. I'm not a theoretical physisist so I could be completely wrong about this...but I tried...=3
1283 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Everywhere you wa...
Offline
Posted 7/26/08
Time is not linear. It appears that way but in reality all moments in time already exist in the space time continuum.
1328 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
39 / M / Closing in
Offline
Posted 7/26/08
Do not know much about physics, but as far as I know understanding time as linear is simply a conception of time, I know it from history. In history there are basically 3 ways of understanding history: linear (point a to point b etc), sircular (point a towards point a through any number of letters, but returning to the original point), and dialectic (thesis - anthitheis - synthesis, which is a thesis for the next antithesis I guess). As far As I know, none of these are disproven. It is simply a way of understanding time. One problem with understanding time linear is that it makes one less likely to accept that progress may not be constant or even there. A famous example is the population explosion that many interpret as people getting more and more all the time, although in the middle ages the population was decreasing many places. The linear system proves itself by going 1580-1581-1582 etc. But this only proves that we count time the way we say we do. Which isn't evidence. Just proves that it works as a way to communicate our concept of time. So: not everyone knows that time is linear. I have never heard it to be proven.
18829 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
32 / M / Tamriel
Offline
Posted 7/26/08

blackraptor00 wrote:
Finally...Time Travel itself. If you argue to Time Travel by going to a different time stream then you have already defeated your own argument. If you leave THIS timeline to do or undo something in another timeline then you will be stuck in what is pretty much a parallel universe. And if you do that, you still won't accomplish what you set out to do for the original timeline you came from because whatever changes you made was on a different timeline and hence not disturbing timeflow. And if you follow my second point, time travel might just be travelling to another universe that is in a different stage of development. You still managed to go back in time...but not in the sense that you might think.


Exactly. The other two models of time travel (slipstream and causal) say there's only 1 universe and you travel within its time stream. The slipstream model says what's happened will always have happened (you cannot make major changes) and the causal model says it can be changed, but leads to the grandfather paradox, which is why the bifurcated theory was hatched.
Thus, time travel under this model is, quite literally going to a different universe. The thing is that objectively, there's no difference to the traveller between the causal model and the bifurcated model. Since you'd alter the future either way, you'd have no way of knowing whether you just were in a new future or a new universe.



jestorebo wrote:

Just proves that it works as a way to communicate our concept of time. So: not everyone knows that time is linear. I have never heard it to be proven.


Interesting point. I will look into these circular and dialectic timeflows. I suppose I should have said that "everyone knows we count time linearly." But I've never heard of these other ideas before, so I'll have to look into them. Do they actually discuss time itself being more fluid? Or do they state that our perception of time should be fluid?
Then again, I suppose in practice there's really little difference between the two.


zendude wrote:
Reading from a Scientific Journal, here are some ideas that suggest something about time travel:
- To time travel, two points must be available, meaning some sort of coordinated rip of space and time, some sort of hole, worm hole. This suggest that we can't necessary travel back to the time of the dinosaurs, with the exception if we find a time rip that coordinates back to that, but it is unlikely. With the experimentation of high speed particle accelerators, we could actually rip space and time. The time coordinate of "Zero" could actually be 2008. The question is how do we stabilize the hole so we could travel in it. This goes the same for space travel, rather light speed travel. The way you can go faster than the speed of light is to make a shortcut, like folding a paper in half.

Yes. And the story I'm working on doesn't allow for time travel, because I personally don't think time travel is possible. I have issues with parallel universes too, but at least they don't require time travel in order to exist. But some very good points. Travelling forward in time through time slowing is also highly unlikely. I have dealt with the physics behind that a couple of times, and I'm quite sure that is impossible.



- In string theory and m-theory, universes are like membranes. If two universes were to touch, an enormous amount of energy could happen, like the "Big Bang." With the suggestion of infinite universes, there might be a super universe, and then a super super universe that encapsulates all these possibly infinite universe; and then so on and so on and so forth.

Oh yes, I forgot about the 9th and 10th levels of the string theory universe. Though really, 7-10 are basically just larger versions of 4-6. But I haven't heard of the Big Bang aspects before. Hmmm... Well, luckily I'm writing fiction so I can ignore it if I need to, but I might actually have an answer for that aspect of it. Thanks, I'll keep that in mind as I work. (Then again, I guess since it's my story I can do whatever the hell I want, but I'd like to keep it mostly grounded in plausibility.)


- I don't know about stopping time. The closest thing that I think about stopping time is something frozen, like absolute zero. I guess that what ever place the universe were frozen they would stay are the point where they were frozen. The other possibility of stop time is if one body is moving too fast that everything seems to just freeze.

Well, yes, at the speed of light time seems to stop, but likewise, I thought the event horizon of a black hole caused time to (seem to) stop. I guess I'll have to do some more looking into this aspect a bit more too. I thought I had that part all figured out.
1328 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
39 / M / Closing in
Offline
Posted 7/26/08
Kohoku: I do not know how you are misunderstanding. It is all a question of how we perceive time. You can not per se say that your way is the right one. I do not know how to answer since it's all perceptions. Some peoples have no conception of time, and does not fall into these cathegories. Something like counting time in hours and minutes is realtively new, at least in a meaningful way. But the mentality is sometimes observable. Linear: focuses on progress. Not the positive meaning of the word, just constantly going in one direction, like it being fewer of something, more of something, always larger, always smaller etc. Circular usually gives one thoughts of repetition, endless cycle. Dialectic (Hegel, Marx) gives one thought of cultural and intellectual (ideas very important) development, usually very positive. Also positive renewal of the old I guess. I'm no expert, but that's how I seem to remember it.

Again: it is all a question of perception, nothing to do with something being more fluid. All conceptions has its limitations and forces one to think of things a certain way.
1696 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / M / Brisbane, Australia
Offline
Posted 6/12/09
There are so many rumors about time

for one, the parralel alternate universes, the number of alternate universes would be increasing at an exponential rate
for those who dont know what exponential rate is, it just means that the rate that it's increasing, is increasing
that number would be ridiculously large

It is also impossible becasue there is only one future, and can only be one future
and if it wasn't then it would not be the future
10452 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27 / M
Offline
Posted 6/12/09
Why the hell did you bring this thread back?
Scientist Moderator
digs 
48106 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / M
Offline
Posted 6/12/09
I think the afterlife isn't in this universe. I believe that time hasn't always existed, and that God created time so that the physical universe can function orderly an properly. God is not bound to time, but He can work within it. Our physical universe is bound to decay and all of our physical laws depend on space and time. Beyond this creation is a universe that is not limited by time, and because our physical laws depend on it we have no way of comprehending what life without time is like. For me I believe time has not always existed, but was created.
Posted 6/12/09
i agree w/ SeraphAlford
You must be logged in to post.