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Afterlife is pointless
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Posted 7/28/08
There are people who look to afterlife with joy. They sometimes start topics. As it is too hot to think for once (refers to geography, not my ability to think in hot weather), I thought I might start a thread.

It is not only the joy but punishment that interest me. Heaven, hell, purgatory, and reincarnation. My opinion that none of these makes much sense. Mind you, I am using the most common expressions. Hell also equals Hades and Underworld etc.

First off: reincarnation. Usually looked upon with joy. I don't get it. I can not see the desire to, for instance, experience school 1000000000 times. It makes experiencing it even once meaningless. Why? Because you've already done that. According to reincarnation you lose all knowledge when you die, otherwise you would be reborn with at least the ability to speak and have other memories of knowledge you must have possessed in a previous life. If you just have to continue experiencing things again and again, gain knowledge again and again, it loses its value. it just becomes tools, not cultivation.

Heaven: also pointless. Eternal bliss, perhaps meant at as an neverending euphoria, but it has no reason. There is no joy over getting children, helping others (not that I feel good helping others, but some do), striving together towards a goal, good work, etc. It is a pointless bliss. I do not get why people long for it.

Hell: certainly we care about it. However, the institution of hell is pointless. There is no reason to punish here. People are already dead. Even if they are rehabilitated, made to regret, it doesn't matter. All the reasons people are put in prison doesn't apply here. Unless it is the population's desire for punishment and gloating. But then people must know of and observe this. Also they must be given the chance to release the souls when they are satisfied, otherwise the punishment is obviously not done for the people.

Purgatory: leads to heaven.
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Posted 7/28/08 , edited 7/28/08
All your stereotypes about the afterlife seem to come from how the western media portrays is. In Christianity, heaven will be like a city, it says we will have jobs, re unite with loved ones, and be with God. In heaven there will be perfect peace, not mindless zombies who experience some sort of ignorant bliss. Heaven will be a perfect place.

Hell is a place of eternal judgment. Hell is where sins go, and people who die un-forgiven have sin and must go to hell. Hell is separation from God, it is eternal judgment for sin. People are sent to hell because they have sin, and sin makes them unrighteous. Unrighteousness cannot be in heaven, because heaven is perfect and righteous.

Even if you think that the afterlife is pointless, doesn't mean that you can escape it. The afterlife applies to everyone and it can't be escaped.
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Posted 7/28/08 , edited 7/28/08
It depends on which afterlife you're expecting.

For the part about reincarnation, read Nietzsche's approach to it.
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Posted 7/28/08
"i think my heaven would be getting put into the ground and game over cause heaven sound dull."

i said that to my sunday school guy when i was eight and i still feel the same now
reincarnation would be fine and all as long as i dont remeber my past life
hells a pile of bollocks and so's purgatory.
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Posted 7/28/08
Digs: actually I am thinking about how heaven is painted in Enoch and Ezra. Jobs? Where is that from? Also, how will one know one will reunite with loved ones? Maybe they are some place else. Anyways, I am not thinking about stereotypes but how described in scriptures. And I am not interesed in heavenly perfection. I'd read a perfect book, I'd watch a perfect movie, if it's on earth and based on our earthly culture I'm interested, but in heaven it will just be, and no culture. No progress for mankind, since it's already perfect. I never said I could escape an afterlife, I just say I see no meaning in the reward or punishment or renewal.

Laharalsan: I never said there was no point when it comes to religion, I just said that the rewards and punishments makes no sense for MAN. Eternal bliss or damnation will give you only that. No expectations, rehabilitation, no bettering yourself - no reason to, no achievements, no meaningful new relationships, no new children, etc. It's an empty un/happiness that gives you only one thing: pain or bliss. I don't want to just be happy. That's what some mental retards are. I only want to be happy for a good reason, something I've done or are doing that isn't just served to me.
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Posted 7/28/08 , edited 7/28/08
Read Revelations, it says in the New Heaven we will have jobs and will receive inheritance. and our loved ones who are Christians will be in heaven too, we will be able to see them again.
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Posted 7/29/08
Digs: then it is in battle with other apocalypses.

thenature: the point is that the afterlife has some sort of appeal among people, beleieving in sanctions and renewal. I just can't see what can come out of it. People that can do no harm anyway and will not join a better society are being punished = pointless. People who will keep no memories anyway will be reborn = pointless. People that can not progress after being taken in anyway are just experiencing endeless joy = pointless.
And I can make judgement on things I haven't experienced. I've never pushed a needle through my eye yet I proclaim it painful. You can use logic sometimes to find things out without experiencing them, that is for instance how science work. And if there is reincarnation, we've probably all experienced it.
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Posted 7/29/08
zen: you have completely misunderstood. It does not matter whether we know or not. My point is that it holds no promise of anything to me. The punishment (too late) and reincarnation (no withstandiong memories) can not better me, the reward is not one for anyone wanting a progressive life. So the thread is aptly named. I am completely satisfied with the naming. I am not critizing here the possibility of an afterlife, in fact I am basing my views on there being an afterlife. I am here assuming there is one. Otherwise there is no point discussing. I could choose a longer title: The afterlife, if existing, holds no promise for the progressive. As for concepts, I am looking towards the usual concepts, as portrayed by most scriptures. How should I otherwise portray it? Guessing?

No! That's my point. Neither reincarnation, heaven or hell holds any promise for me. I'd check a heaven out, but only out of curiosity, then I'd be satisfied. But I wouldn't like to stay, and certainly no other place. I'd be interested in a long, long earthly life, perhaps beat my great-grandfather (98) or his brother (91), but that's it. And I'd never want to repeat my experience as a blank slate. I meant what I said: not interested. Because for a progressive person it is pointless.
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Posted 7/30/08
The aftelife is pointless? this is just another manifestation your insecurity religious or philosophical stance. The afterlife is perhaps what one the most significantly difinitive notions of history. the afterlife is what more or less governs the lives of countless theists. Its the beleif that forces humanity to reluctantly adapt and uphold numerous morals that, essentially aids the world.

Furthermore it presents hope to those that as result of cruelty of the world have become hopeless.

Pointless? thats an infinitely ignominious statement.
But thats just my veiw.LOL
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Posted 7/30/08
narc: when it comes to ideals I have no insecurity. I know where I stand. And my point it that it seems pointless for someone progressive, that enjoys human culture. The point is: I don't get why people see it as something to really look forward to, or see any point in people getting punished. In the west atheism is growing, but morals are not declining. We are still making moral stands on issues, no to wife beatings (70s I believe), no to child abuse (70s), homosexuality more and more accepted, fight against racism, etc.
Represent hope? Ok, but what's the argument? You think that must be positive? I'd rather experience real hopelessness, than being unrealistically hopeful. If you confront problems head on, instead of seeking salvation, you can analyze and find solutions. Hope can be positive, if it is to get one through hardship, but a realistic point of view might work even better. It does for someone like me. I'd rather fight something, than just try to get through it.
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Posted 7/30/08

jestorebo wrote:

narc: when it comes to ideals I have no insecurity. I know where I stand. And my point it that it seems pointless for someone progressive, that enjoys human culture. The point is: I don't get why people see it as something to really look forward to, or see any point in people getting punished. In the west atheism is growing, but morals are not declining. We are still making moral stands on issues, no to wife beatings (70s I believe), no to child abuse (70s), homosexuality more and more accepted, fight against racism, etc.
Represent hope? Ok, but what's the argument? You think that must be positive? I'd rather experience real hopelessness, than being unrealistically hopeful. If you confront problems head on, instead of seeking salvation, you can analyze and find solutions. Hope can be positive, if it is to get one through hardship, but a realistic point of view might work even better. It does for someone like me. I'd rather fight something, than just try to get through it.


Did you read my last post? People genuinely do not think life i fair and hence they believe the have the right to second chance in which can be adequately rewarded for their deeds.

You don't see the irony in your self prorogation and sustenance Atheism, do you? You believe that it is fundamentally 'unrealistically hopeless' to accept divinity and by extension the afterlife. Fatuity. Atheism is actually a self induced delusional state in which usually consciously blinds oneself to the fact that the is a nebulously divine entity, and this essentially requires such unyielding faith that it may in fact be said to be 'unrealistically hopeful'

Do you understand the concept morality? Apparently then you realize that only has there a steady decline but in many case it has been utterly eradicate.
Moreover you would offer such ridiculous arguments with obviously fabricated statistics (source please?)
In which you try perfunctorily to attribute morality to the individual of crimes you stated.
You must understand that morality is a concept that cannot be isolated to the confines of individual infringements against the law but must essentially be discussed in a general manner

Furthermore
Homosexuality cannot be used to justify your argument as it strengthens mine. To elaborate I mean the recent upsurge in the open practice of homosexuality is testament to the fact that morality has steadily declined.

Essentially what I'm saying is that morality has declined and that's a fact.
Moreover because the fact the principles upon which morality today. were initially created came as a result of religious belief and therefore in some cases (I'm bold enough to say) the decline in morality may in fact be partially attributed the propagation of
atheism.
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Posted 7/30/08
Narc: my dictonary gives no definition of "prorogation". Please, English is not my first language. In fact it is not even my second technically. Since you are forcing me: I am simply not an atheist. I accept both divinity and afterlife, but I just don't see any point in the second. What, because one is religious, one needs to see sense in every aspect of one's religion? I do not concur. I am not talking about realism at all, I just don't see why people long so for afterlife. That there is something divine can not be seen as anything but belief, not as "fact". A fact is observable, noted scientifically, or otherwise subject to real scientific study.

There is not one moral codec, there are perhaps thousands, or perhaps one for every human. Just because someone don't have yours don't mean they are immoral or amoral. As long as you have ethics and live by it, you can be deemed "morally heretic" or "deviant", but not immoral or amoral. Moral is subjective. So I don't "realize".
seeing morality as subjective, which is the only thing that makes sense for comparison and studies (anthropolgy, sociology, history, even religious studies, the list goes on) it does not matter WHAT moral rules people have, as long as they have some, they are not amoral. As long as they live by them, they are not immoral. My point is that people have seen this phenomenas and welcomed it: non-acceptance of child abuse, of domestic abuse, acceptance of homosexuality. And they are considered moral. If you went into a bar and bad-mouthed the gay you may be met by moral indignation by people that are not, but feel they have to make a moral stand.
Atheist societies has also been faster in developing a stand on issues like environmentalism and acceptance of homosexuality, as a moral stand. Preservation of the earth and tolerance. Religion has not worked as fast.
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Posted 7/30/08 , edited 7/30/08
...blah.

Can someone explain how homosexuality is a moral outrage besides the fact that it's mentioned in a book?
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Posted 7/30/08

leviathan343 wrote:

This thread is full of fail. When everyone just throws their opinions in, there can't be a reasonable debate.

Not to mention, there are some really laughable opinions as well.


Uh, if you have nothing constructive to say, then don't say anything.

Poeple are throwing their opinions out because there is nothing else to throw out. What are people gonna say? The facts? We don't know any facts about the afterlife. If we did, this thread would not exist.

And don't look down on someone's opinion just because you think it is laughable. You just think you are better than them.

If heaven were a place where everyone gets whatever he or she wants for all of eternity, then yes. It would be pointless. Nothing in this world could satisfy mankind for all of eternity because everything from the earth is temporal. I don't think I could play games or watch anime forever without getting bored. If heaven were really heaven, then we would have something that lasts forever and never gets boring.
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Posted 7/30/08 , edited 7/30/08

sorenku wrote:


leviathan343 wrote:

This thread is full of fail. When everyone just throws their opinions in, there can't be a reasonable debate.

Not to mention, there are some really laughable opinions as well.


Uh, if you have nothing constructive to say, then don't say anything.

Poeple are throwing their opinions out because there is nothing else to throw out. What are people gonna say? The facts? We don't know any facts about the afterlife. If we did, this thread would not exist.

And don't look down on someone's opinion just because you think it is laughable. You just think you are better than them.

If heaven were a place where everyone gets whatever he or she wants for all of eternity, then yes. It would be pointless. Nothing in this world could satisfy mankind for all of eternity because everything from the earth is temporal. I don't think I could play games or watch anime forever without getting bored. If heaven were really heaven, then we would have something that lasts forever and never gets boring.


I apologize. Let me delete that last post. My ego gets in the way of my typing.

Crap, can't. Editing is fun though.
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