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Teaching the Bible in Secular school
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Posted 7/31/08

Harue-Ikarus wrote:

Could someone explain secular school to me? My dictionary doesn't know the word.

Anyway, I am really bad at putting my thoughts into coherent sentences, expecially when talking about religion, but I will try.

We had religion classes for years at school and I learned a lot from them. We learned about all of the major religions and some not so major ones and that included reading parts of the bible. The bible is related to so many religions that it is much easier to understand what is going on if you know the basic things about the bible... It also makes spotting all the similarities possible. I think it is extremely important to learn about different religions just to be able to understand other people and sometimes even your own religion. It doesn't matter if you are religious or not, it is such a huge part of everyday life on earth that it is idiotic not to teach it at schools.

In my opinion it is ignorant just to say "god doesn't exist" or "christianity is the only real religion" (just examples) if you don't even know what "god" is or what other religions there is. It is like me saying that drunk driving isn't dangerous when I don't even know how to drive. Also it bothers me how so many people instantly assume that I mean christianity when talking about religion. Heck, many christians I talk to don't even seem to know that there is different branches of christianity. How can you believe in something when you don't even know what it is that you are believing in?


The topic is about whether or not the BIBLE should be taught in secular schools, not religion. What's the point in teaching religion(s) if you aren't going to give students the opportunity to know what their holy books say. So the bible should be taught in secular schools, but it shouldn't be the only holy book to be taught. But Americans are very touchy when it comes to the issue of religion, so this is what I say, if it's cool for muslims to pray and stuff in public, then it should be cool for Christian teachers to inform their students about the many 'benefits of Christianity'.
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Posted 7/31/08

Jcorp wrote:


Harue-Ikarus wrote:

Could someone explain secular school to me? My dictionary doesn't know the word.

Anyway, I am really bad at putting my thoughts into coherent sentences, expecially when talking about religion, but I will try.

We had religion classes for years at school and I learned a lot from them. We learned about all of the major religions and some not so major ones and that included reading parts of the bible. The bible is related to so many religions that it is much easier to understand what is going on if you know the basic things about the bible... It also makes spotting all the similarities possible. I think it is extremely important to learn about different religions just to be able to understand other people and sometimes even your own religion. It doesn't matter if you are religious or not, it is such a huge part of everyday life on earth that it is idiotic not to teach it at schools.

In my opinion it is ignorant just to say "god doesn't exist" or "christianity is the only real religion" (just examples) if you don't even know what "god" is or what other religions there is. It is like me saying that drunk driving isn't dangerous when I don't even know how to drive. Also it bothers me how so many people instantly assume that I mean christianity when talking about religion. Heck, many christians I talk to don't even seem to know that there is different branches of christianity. How can you believe in something when you don't even know what it is that you are believing in?


The topic is about whether or not the BIBLE should be taught in secular schools, not religion. What's the point in teaching religion(s) if you aren't going to give students the opportunity to know what their holy books say. So the bible should be taught in secular schools, but it shouldn't be the only holy book to be taught. But Americans are very touchy when it comes to the issue of religion, so this is what I say, if it's cool for muslims to pray and stuff in public, then it should be cool for Christian teachers to inform their students about the many 'benefits of Christianity'.


I still want to know what a secular school is.

My point was trying to be that because the bible is such a big part of several religions it is kinda hard to teach the religions without teaching the bible at all. And it kinda went from there...

Praying in public has nothing to do with preaching in public. I would see nothing wrong with informing students about "benefits of christianity" as long as it was done outside of school hours without bothering the students or on religion classes if it was related to the subject and the teacher was being realistic, but math is math and biology is biology and religion has no place in those classes.

Besides, there is no reason to compare some random guy on a street with a teacher because on a street you are allowed to tell people how cars don't exist if you want to (as long as not being a nuisance). Teachers are at schools to teach, it is their job not their free time.
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Posted 8/1/08

Harue-Ikarus wrote:


Jcorp wrote:


Harue-Ikarus wrote:

Could someone explain secular school to me? My dictionary doesn't know the word.

Anyway, I am really bad at putting my thoughts into coherent sentences, expecially when talking about religion, but I will try.

We had religion classes for years at school and I learned a lot from them. We learned about all of the major religions and some not so major ones and that included reading parts of the bible. The bible is related to so many religions that it is much easier to understand what is going on if you know the basic things about the bible... It also makes spotting all the similarities possible. I think it is extremely important to learn about different religions just to be able to understand other people and sometimes even your own religion. It doesn't matter if you are religious or not, it is such a huge part of everyday life on earth that it is idiotic not to teach it at schools.

In my opinion it is ignorant just to say "god doesn't exist" or "christianity is the only real religion" (just examples) if you don't even know what "god" is or what other religions there is. It is like me saying that drunk driving isn't dangerous when I don't even know how to drive. Also it bothers me how so many people instantly assume that I mean christianity when talking about religion. Heck, many christians I talk to don't even seem to know that there is different branches of christianity. How can you believe in something when you don't even know what it is that you are believing in?


The topic is about whether or not the BIBLE should be taught in secular schools, not religion. What's the point in teaching religion(s) if you aren't going to give students the opportunity to know what their holy books say. So the bible should be taught in secular schools, but it shouldn't be the only holy book to be taught. But Americans are very touchy when it comes to the issue of religion, so this is what I say, if it's cool for muslims to pray and stuff in public, then it should be cool for Christian teachers to inform their students about the many 'benefits of Christianity'.


I still want to know what a secular school is.

My point was trying to be that because the bible is such a big part of several religions it is kinda hard to teach the religions without teaching the bible at all. And it kinda went from there...

Praying in public has nothing to do with preaching in public. I would see nothing wrong with informing students about "benefits of christianity" as long as it was done outside of school hours without bothering the students or on religion classes if it was related to the subject and the teacher was being realistic, but math is math and biology is biology and religion has no place in those classes.

Besides, there is no reason to compare some random guy on a street with a teacher because on a street you are allowed to tell people how cars don't exist if you want to (as long as not being a nuisance). Teachers are at schools to teach, it is their job not their free time.


Why is it so bad to teach the bible? And I hate to break it to you, but math isn't just math and bio isn't just biology. I personally would have been lost in biology class when I was learning about carbohydrates and stuff if I wasn't able to incorporate what I had already known from chemistry. SO you see a good teacher will be able to incorporate topics form other subjects to try to better explain a topic in his/her particular subject. The same can be said about religion. When I was forced to learn about evolution I had to draw on what I knew from the bible to come up with ways to disprove the theory. So as long as religion can be used to better explain a topic then why not include it in the lesson? Christianity doesn't have to be the only one used and if a teacher wants to use the opportunity to try and 'persuade' students to believe what she believes then there's nothing wrong with it, as long as it's done tactfully. We cannot blatantly say that religion has no place in secular schools, that's just narrow-mined rubbish.

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i was lucky to go to a school where we had holidays or celebrations for Muslim,Christian,Hindu festivals( Eid, Christmas, Easter, Holi, Diwali etc.)
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Posted 8/1/08

Jcorp wrote:


Harue-Ikarus wrote:


Jcorp wrote:


Harue-Ikarus wrote:

Could someone explain secular school to me? My dictionary doesn't know the word.

Anyway, I am really bad at putting my thoughts into coherent sentences, expecially when talking about religion, but I will try.

We had religion classes for years at school and I learned a lot from them. We learned about all of the major religions and some not so major ones and that included reading parts of the bible. The bible is related to so many religions that it is much easier to understand what is going on if you know the basic things about the bible... It also makes spotting all the similarities possible. I think it is extremely important to learn about different religions just to be able to understand other people and sometimes even your own religion. It doesn't matter if you are religious or not, it is such a huge part of everyday life on earth that it is idiotic not to teach it at schools.

In my opinion it is ignorant just to say "god doesn't exist" or "christianity is the only real religion" (just examples) if you don't even know what "god" is or what other religions there is. It is like me saying that drunk driving isn't dangerous when I don't even know how to drive. Also it bothers me how so many people instantly assume that I mean christianity when talking about religion. Heck, many christians I talk to don't even seem to know that there is different branches of christianity. How can you believe in something when you don't even know what it is that you are believing in?


The topic is about whether or not the BIBLE should be taught in secular schools, not religion. What's the point in teaching religion(s) if you aren't going to give students the opportunity to know what their holy books say. So the bible should be taught in secular schools, but it shouldn't be the only holy book to be taught. But Americans are very touchy when it comes to the issue of religion, so this is what I say, if it's cool for muslims to pray and stuff in public, then it should be cool for Christian teachers to inform their students about the many 'benefits of Christianity'.


I still want to know what a secular school is.

My point was trying to be that because the bible is such a big part of several religions it is kinda hard to teach the religions without teaching the bible at all. And it kinda went from there...

Praying in public has nothing to do with preaching in public. I would see nothing wrong with informing students about "benefits of christianity" as long as it was done outside of school hours without bothering the students or on religion classes if it was related to the subject and the teacher was being realistic, but math is math and biology is biology and religion has no place in those classes.

Besides, there is no reason to compare some random guy on a street with a teacher because on a street you are allowed to tell people how cars don't exist if you want to (as long as not being a nuisance). Teachers are at schools to teach, it is their job not their free time.


Why is it so bad to teach the bible? And I hate to break it to you, but math isn't just math and bio isn't just biology. I personally would have been lost in biology class when I was learning about carbohydrates and stuff if I wasn't able to incorporate what I had already known from chemistry. SO you see a good teacher will be able to incorporate topics form other subjects to try to better explain a topic in his/her particular subject. The same can be said about religion. When I was forced to learn about evolution I had to draw on what I knew from the bible to come up with ways to disprove the theory. So as long as religion can be used to better explain a topic then why not include it in the lesson? Christianity doesn't have to be the only one used and if a teacher wants to use the opportunity to try and 'persuade' students to believe what she believes then there's nothing wrong with it, as long as it's done tactfully. We cannot blatantly say that religion has no place in secular schools, that's just narrow-mined rubbish.



And you still cannot tell me what a secular school is?

I didn't say that teaching the bible is bad. I am saying that it should be teached, but not preached... and my math/biology example was supposed to mean that you aren't supposed to talk about things that have nothing to do with the subject. Of course you use examples to teach math, that is obvious. So math is math. It has to do with math so it is still math. It would be different if the teacher was talking about religion to convert people in school. Actually that was my point the whole time, but I coudn't remember how it was said. Apparently you meant just bringing up the subject, I thought you meant preaching to convert people.

But I still think it is bad for a teacher to let their private life affect their lessons, like persuading people. I don't care if they hand out pamphlets or whatever on their free time, but work is work. Personal life shouldn't affect it. Just like racist teachers aren't allowed to teach that some people are superior, even if they believed in it with their whole heart and were being "tactfull" about it. (Still just an example, first one that came to my mind.)

I guess my example was a bit bad or you looked too deeply into it, but still.
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Posted 8/1/08

Harue-Ikarus wrote:


Jcorp wrote:


Harue-Ikarus wrote:


Jcorp wrote:


Harue-Ikarus wrote:

Could someone explain secular school to me? My dictionary doesn't know the word.

Anyway, I am really bad at putting my thoughts into coherent sentences, expecially when talking about religion, but I will try.

We had religion classes for years at school and I learned a lot from them. We learned about all of the major religions and some not so major ones and that included reading parts of the bible. The bible is related to so many religions that it is much easier to understand what is going on if you know the basic things about the bible... It also makes spotting all the similarities possible. I think it is extremely important to learn about different religions just to be able to understand other people and sometimes even your own religion. It doesn't matter if you are religious or not, it is such a huge part of everyday life on earth that it is idiotic not to teach it at schools.

In my opinion it is ignorant just to say "god doesn't exist" or "christianity is the only real religion" (just examples) if you don't even know what "god" is or what other religions there is. It is like me saying that drunk driving isn't dangerous when I don't even know how to drive. Also it bothers me how so many people instantly assume that I mean christianity when talking about religion. Heck, many christians I talk to don't even seem to know that there is different branches of christianity. How can you believe in something when you don't even know what it is that you are believing in?


The topic is about whether or not the BIBLE should be taught in secular schools, not religion. What's the point in teaching religion(s) if you aren't going to give students the opportunity to know what their holy books say. So the bible should be taught in secular schools, but it shouldn't be the only holy book to be taught. But Americans are very touchy when it comes to the issue of religion, so this is what I say, if it's cool for muslims to pray and stuff in public, then it should be cool for Christian teachers to inform their students about the many 'benefits of Christianity'.


I still want to know what a secular school is.

My point was trying to be that because the bible is such a big part of several religions it is kinda hard to teach the religions without teaching the bible at all. And it kinda went from there...

Praying in public has nothing to do with preaching in public. I would see nothing wrong with informing students about "benefits of christianity" as long as it was done outside of school hours without bothering the students or on religion classes if it was related to the subject and the teacher was being realistic, but math is math and biology is biology and religion has no place in those classes.

Besides, there is no reason to compare some random guy on a street with a teacher because on a street you are allowed to tell people how cars don't exist if you want to (as long as not being a nuisance). Teachers are at schools to teach, it is their job not their free time.


Why is it so bad to teach the bible? And I hate to break it to you, but math isn't just math and bio isn't just biology. I personally would have been lost in biology class when I was learning about carbohydrates and stuff if I wasn't able to incorporate what I had already known from chemistry. SO you see a good teacher will be able to incorporate topics form other subjects to try to better explain a topic in his/her particular subject. The same can be said about religion. When I was forced to learn about evolution I had to draw on what I knew from the bible to come up with ways to disprove the theory. So as long as religion can be used to better explain a topic then why not include it in the lesson? Christianity doesn't have to be the only one used and if a teacher wants to use the opportunity to try and 'persuade' students to believe what she believes then there's nothing wrong with it, as long as it's done tactfully. We cannot blatantly say that religion has no place in secular schools, that's just narrow-mined rubbish.



And you still cannot tell me what a secular school is?

I didn't say that teaching the bible is bad. I am saying that it should be teached, but not preached... and my math/biology example was supposed to mean that you aren't supposed to talk about things that have nothing to do with the subject. Of course you use examples to teach math, that is obvious. So math is math. It has to do with math so it is still math. It would be different if the teacher was talking about religion to convert people in school. Actually that was my point the whole time, but I coudn't remember how it was said. Apparently you meant just bringing up the subject, I thought you meant preaching to convert people.

But I still think it is bad for a teacher to let their private life affect their lessons, like persuading people. I don't care if they hand out pamphlets or whatever on their free time, but work is work. Personal life shouldn't affect it. Just like racist teachers aren't allowed to teach that some people are superior, even if they believed in it with their whole heart and were being "tactfull" about it. (Still just an example, first one that came to my mind.)

I guess my example was a bit bad or you looked too deeply into it, but still.


A secular school is one that is not religious. What's the difference between teaching and preaching? In both cases we're trying to cause another person to understand what we already know, even if you say preaching includes more persuasion that is also faulty, teaching is also quite persuasive, so if preaching about religion is wrong then teaching it is also wrong.
I'm still having a hard time with the whole math is math thing, that's not how it is. We have been taught to compartmentalize our thinking just as we compartmentalize what we learn in school as subjects, but that isn't so. Everything is interconnected, so math isn't just math and even if something better explains a math topic that doesn't make it math.
Racism is wrong. Persuading children to accept something that is inherently good is a totally different thing. One cannot compare a hypothetical racist teacher to a Christian or Muslim one. I dislike the fact that we as a society have gotten to the place where we downright refuse to incorporate something based on faith into our daily lives. So it's not okay for a racist teacher for example to teach hatred but if a teacher wants to pass on something worthwhile to her students then by all means she should, even if it is about the love of God or Allah.
And yes your example was bad.
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Posted 8/1/08 , edited 8/1/08
One teacher said :
"christian is a religion which is based on the teaching of Jesus. By Christian, Jesus is believed to be the son of God, savior, etc. They believe that all who believe in Jesus will go to heaven, while those who don't will spend eternal torture in hell."

Other said :
"Jesus is crucified for you guys!!So Jesus is the savior, you must believe in Him. If you don't you will surely go to hell(you will be burned eternally... wwooooo scarrrryyyyyy ), isn't it better to just believe and go to heaven?"

hmmm........ Let's hear people opinion about this.
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Posted 8/2/08
where is Democracy people............
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Posted 8/2/08 , edited 8/2/08

Sulla wrote:

Once, Mrs. Green was teaching history, and started telling stories from the Bible as if they were real history. My sister said "isn't that a violation of the separation between church and state?" Mrs. Green's reply: "DETENTION!"
[

erm .. no

jesus did exist ... and so did all his disiples ... the founding of something like a religion is history, and important history regardless of the religion

the events of what is written in the bible and most other holy documents DID happen ... whether they were real or jesus was a really good street magician is up for debate

im an athiest by the way
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Posted 8/2/08

J1nn wrote:


Sulla wrote:

Once, Mrs. Green was teaching history, and started telling stories from the Bible as if they were real history. My sister said "isn't that a violation of the separation between church and state?" Mrs. Green's reply: "DETENTION!"
[

erm .. no

jesus did exist ... and so did all his disiples ... the founding of something like a religion is history, and important history regardless of the religion

the events of what is written in the bible and most other holy documents DID happen ... whether they were real or jesus was a really good street magician is up for debate

im an athiest by the way


I thought the existence of that "Jesus" is still debatable. It's true that some of bible is part of history.
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tweety_cool wrote:


J1nn wrote:


Sulla wrote:

Once, Mrs. Green was teaching history, and started telling stories from the Bible as if they were real history. My sister said "isn't that a violation of the separation between church and state?" Mrs. Green's reply: "DETENTION!"
[

erm .. no

jesus did exist ... and so did all his disiples ... the founding of something like a religion is history, and important history regardless of the religion

the events of what is written in the bible and most other holy documents DID happen ... whether they were real or jesus was a really good street magician is up for debate

im an athiest by the way


I thought the existence of that "Jesus" is still debatable. It's true that some of bible is part of history.


where the fuck have you been getting your facts?!? ... they have the bones of jesus somewhere and are still trying to extract DNA ... they even had the spear that was used to kill him on the cross ... but that was stolen by the SS (nazi special forces) during world war 2 and has still not been recovered

jesus, mohammed and all the other fun friends did exist .... but again ... whether they were holy miracles that could turn water into wine or just very good tricksters is the only thing thats up for debate
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Posted 8/2/08

J1nn wrote:


tweety_cool wrote:


J1nn wrote:


Sulla wrote:

Once, Mrs. Green was teaching history, and started telling stories from the Bible as if they were real history. My sister said "isn't that a violation of the separation between church and state?" Mrs. Green's reply: "DETENTION!"
[

erm .. no

jesus did exist ... and so did all his disiples ... the founding of something like a religion is history, and important history regardless of the religion

the events of what is written in the bible and most other holy documents DID happen ... whether they were real or jesus was a really good street magician is up for debate

im an athiest by the way


I thought the existence of that "Jesus" is still debatable. It's true that some of bible is part of history.


where the fuck have you been getting your facts?!? ... they have the bones of jesus somewhere and are still trying to extract DNA ... they even had the spear that was used to kill him on the cross ... but that was stolen by the SS (nazi special forces) during world war 2 and has still not been recovered

jesus, mohammed and all the other fun friends did exist .... but again ... whether they were holy miracles that could turn water into wine or just very good tricksters is the only thing thats up for debate


If they still trying to extract DNA.... what do you want to compare it with? Anyone has the exact DNA of Jesus? or do you use turin shrouds? is it already proven that turin shrouds is really that shrouds? As far as you can prove, it might be at the same time with that of Jesus. However, it might belong to someone else(we don't have Jesus's name written down there rite?). Even if you have the longinus.... how do you know it's that Longinus? what if it's just a tool to boost some troop's moral? A conspiracy that is often made? It all might be true, if it has the same dna (as it will be a great coincidence).

btw, no need to flame me.... It's not that I am saying you are wrong.... I am aware how uninformed I am... But... please be nice.
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Posted 8/2/08

tweety_cool wrote:


J1nn wrote:


tweety_cool wrote:


J1nn wrote:


Sulla wrote:

Once, Mrs. Green was teaching history, and started telling stories from the Bible as if they were real history. My sister said "isn't that a violation of the separation between church and state?" Mrs. Green's reply: "DETENTION!"
[

erm .. no

jesus did exist ... and so did all his disiples ... the founding of something like a religion is history, and important history regardless of the religion

the events of what is written in the bible and most other holy documents DID happen ... whether they were real or jesus was a really good street magician is up for debate

im an athiest by the way


I thought the existence of that "Jesus" is still debatable. It's true that some of bible is part of history.


where the fuck have you been getting your facts?!? ... they have the bones of jesus somewhere and are still trying to extract DNA ... they even had the spear that was used to kill him on the cross ... but that was stolen by the SS (nazi special forces) during world war 2 and has still not been recovered

jesus, mohammed and all the other fun friends did exist .... but again ... whether they were holy miracles that could turn water into wine or just very good tricksters is the only thing thats up for debate


If they still trying to extract DNA.... what do you want to compare it with? Anyone has the exact DNA of Jesus? or do you use turin shrouds? is it already proven that turin shrouds is really that shrouds? As far as you can prove, it might be at the same time with that of Jesus. However, it might belong to someone else(we don't have Jesus's name written down there rite?). Even if you have the longinus.... how do you know it's that Longinus? what if it's just a tool to boost some troop's moral? A conspiracy that is often made? It all might be true, if it has the same dna (as it will be a great coincidence).

btw, no need to flame me.... It's not that I am saying you are wrong.... I am aware how uninformed I am... But... please be nice.


they have nothing to compare it to, but people thousands of years ago had no need to lie to us now ... there were historic documents (peoples diarys) confirming the existance of jesus ... the reason they are trying to extract DNA is to find out if it was different to ours in any way and to try to track down relatives (because contrary to what it said in the bible ... jesus did have sex with mary whats her face ... not his mum mary the other one)

no need to flame but didnt i already explain all the things you just stated (historical documents held not by religious fanatics but by scientists and archeologists
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Posted 8/2/08 , edited 8/2/08

h4x0rz wrote:

i was lucky to go to a school where we had holidays or celebrations for Muslim,Christian,Hindu festivals( Eid, Christmas, Easter, Holi, Diwali etc.)


aww i wanna go to ur school and i dont think the teacher should've gave dentention...
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Posted 8/3/08

Harue-Ikarus wrote:
Could someone explain secular school to me? My dictionary doesn't know the word.


A secular school is just a regular public school.
Secular = anything not related to religion

So a non-religious school would be a secular school, which would be most public schools.

As for me, religion can be taught in classes that study religion. If the person is teaching scripture as if it's history, then that's a violation of the 1st amendment because secular schools are government funded. And the government is not suppose to fund the promotion of any one religion.

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